Comms during an emergency

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
21,872
Location
west Texas
Display Name
Dave Taylor
Home Airfield
KMRF
I watch/listen to aviation incident videos a lot, in which we can hear the audio.
Whenever an aircraft calls a mayday or panpan, invariably ATC is doing as they are trained, to offer assistance and ask questions.

To me, this is exactly like how Gann's instructor, in Fate is the Hunter, was lighting matches in front of Gann while he is busy managing a difficult cockpit task (I think it was a night approach or something).

The pilot(s) is(are) suddenly very busy dealing with an abnormal or emergency and now their headphones are providing very distracting audio which detracts from their performance of vital actions.

(I have already in my mind the arguments against what I suggest, and which I expect to hear, yet still I propose this change: )

On first call up to ATC with your emergency, it's "mayday or pan; callsign; brief description of emergency; and then; Don't call me back, I'm busy."
ie maybe:
"Mayday mayday mayday N1234, engine failure, Standby"

In almost all these recordings of emergencies, ATC is not helping the situation with their microphone, they are interfering.
(a search offers instances where documented harm occurs, in many other instances the pilots succeeded in making a favorable outcome, but it was definitely more difficult)
Changing ATC training on this is unlikely to happen, it's too entrenched in their protocols.

Give the pilots a chance to perform immediate actions, do the DECIDE model or whichever, discuss among crew, Aviate...and maybe Navigate, talk to cabin crew etc.
THEN pilots get back to ATC when they are ready - with a plan, any requests, notification of fuel/sob/hazmat...and lastly any other questions or information ATC has. It's simply appropriate prioritization. When the earphones are giving mental tasks, the pilots have no choice but to listen and often feel the burden to respond.
(Of course ATC should advise if you are nearing terrain and might say minimum altitudes; in fact anything urgent should be relayed without pressing for a response.)
 
I think passengers and fuel quantity question is dumb.
I know they have their reasons.
 
I was once asked if I was gonna need a tow back after crash… er… landing.

Ala Ralphie in a Christmas story… a tow? What’s a tow?

I heard my instructor responded “yeah, if we make it…”. Oh, not good, I initiated a helmet fire.

Our wingman came on freq and started fielding questions for us! Yay Ank!!!

Ok, not most, but it can happen! Ha!
 
If nobody responds to your mayday call, how do you know anyone heard it?
 
Reminds me of the video from the F-16 that lost its engine over Missouri and diverted. His wingman took the comms and told the tower what was going on and that he was landing on a particular runway. Tower started to give a vector or runway assignment, and the wingman took charge, making it clear that they weren’t making a request, but were advising tower what he was doing.

If there’s ever a time for the C in PIC, it’s during an emergency.
 
Simple enough if the emergency grants an opportunity to announce a Mayday, followed up at your discretion with as much information as you have time, desire and ability to share.

Absolutely nothing wrong with transmitting "Standby, we'll get back with you when able", followed by turning the volume down and squawking 7700. Informing ATC of what's happening could be a huge distraction. Aviate, Navigate and Communicate is listed in that order for a good reason.

If your emergency situation can be helped in any manner by ATC, let them know what type of assistance they can provide, then use it if it's helpful.
 
I lost power over the divide once (M20J turbo-bullet conversion). My call was N____ declaring an emergency engine difficulties making for BJC. Squawking 7700 do not talk to me I'm very very busy. 4 on board".

I did not answer again until I had the thing making maybe 80 hp and it was apparent that I had enough altitude to make it if it died.

EXERT your PIC authority.
To their credit, they STFU after I ignored about three replies.
 
I would note that there are times where getting on the ground rapidly, and thus getting ATC involved and properly dividing your attention may be necessary. As an example, Southwest 1380 back in 2018…

DCA18MA142.aspx

www.ntsb.gov www.ntsb.gov

They had an engine failure and depressurization, and a passenger was hanging half out the window (unfortunately the passenger did not survive.) After an emergency descent, they were on the ground at Philadelphia about 17 minutes after the failure. Basically they had 4 checklists to complete: Decompression, Emergency Descent, Engine failure, and One Engine Inop Approach and Landing. Without distraction, those checklists could easily be completed in 17 minutes, but with everything that was going on, the crew almost got one of the four checklists completed. Good news is, they knew their airplane and its systems and procedures well enough that they got everything done that needed to be done. The NTSB stated that nothing on those four checklists that remained undone changed the outcome in any way.

Bottom line is, the PIC needs to prioritize. Whether that’s ignoring ATC or dealing with procedures via systems knowledge, or some combination thereof, figure out what needs to be done and act accordingly.
 
ateamer said:
His wingman took the comms and told the tower what was going on and that he was landing on a particular runway. Tower started to give a vector or runway assignment, and the wingman took charge, making it clear that they weren’t making a request, but were advising tower what he was doing.
Click to expand...
This, except in a two-man crew I think it's better for the captain to take the comms and the copilot manage the checklists.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Basically they had 4 checklists to complete: Decompression, Emergency Descent, Engine failure, and One Engine Inop Approach and Landing.
Click to expand...
Sounds to me like Decompression and Emergency Descent should be combined in the same checklist, as should the Engine Failure and One Engine Inop Approach and Landing. Nothing worse than paging through a book looking for the next list to read at a time like that.
MauleSkinner said:
Bottom line is, the PIC needs to prioritize. Whether that’s ignoring ATC or dealing with procedures via systems knowledge, or some combination thereof, figure out what needs to be done and act accordingly.
Click to expand...
Yep, ya gotta know when to toss the book out the window.
 
dtuuri said:
Sounds to me like Decompression and Emergency Descent should be combined in the same checklist, as should the Engine Failure and One Engine Inop Approach and Landing. Nothing worse than paging through a book looking for the next list to read at a time like that.
Click to expand...
In this instance that would work, but a decompression checklist doesn’t always result in an emergency descent, nor does an engine failure always result in an OEI landing.

Good news is, modern checklists do a good job of directing the crew appropriately. Older equipment, not so much.
 
bonefishpete said:
I think passengers and fuel quantity question is dumb.
I know they have their reasons.
Click to expand...
I get souls. It's for SAR. I don't understand fuel remaining. If I call mayday then I probably want to get on the ground ASAP, otherwise I'll call panpan.
 
asicer said:
I get souls. It's for SAR. I don't understand fuel remaining. If I call mayday then I probably want to get on the ground ASAP, otherwise I'll call panpan.
Click to expand...
How many fire trucks to roll out and how much foam to spray on the fuel.
 
I've had a couple of "emergency" situations.

The one true one where the engine "blowed up" (as we say in NASCAR), ATC was very cool about it and didn't waste time with souls on board and fuel remaining.

I've had one time we got into IAD NORDO. As we're rolling out they say unless they hear from us they're rolling the equipment. The nearly dead handheld on board was able to tell them we were OK and didn't need that. Having spent time in the fire service and trained with the BWI CFR guys, I don't begrudge them some "jumping the gun" to get on the scene ASAP on a potential emergency. Studies show that they have a very limited window of time to get water/foam flowing that will make a difference.

I did get chased around MGW by the CFR guys when I reported smoke in the cockpit and I was shutting down the avionics. I was just hoping they didn't drown me in AFFF in the process.
 
The word I is very powerful in an emergency. For example… I need XYZ. I will be doing ABC. You as PIC are in control, ATC is trying to be helpful (and do a fantastic job trying to help) but you drive what you need.
 
I haven’t heard too many recordings where they’re distracting the pilot with the non essentials. They got to get out the big three (ID / type, nature of emergency, pilot actions) early. Generally they already know the first two from the pilots initial transmission so it’s basically the usual “say your intentions” or “what do you need from me.”

The other laundry list is “as necessary” and I haven’t heard too many controllers pushing that stuff early in the emergency. Generally it’s after the pilot has done their troubleshooting and given their intentions. After all that, then the controller asks “when able, I’m gonna need…”
 
Velocity173 said:
The other laundry list is “as necessary” and I haven’t heard too many controllers pushing that stuff early in the emergency. Generally it’s after the pilot has done their troubleshooting and given their intentions. After all that, then the controller asks “when able, I’m gonna need…”
Click to expand...
Yeah, the mad Citation pilot going into Torrence only got "souls onboard and fuel remaining".
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...roblems-m-w-mad-citation-pilot-vs-atc.154623/
 
91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.


That means talking to ATC is not your priority. Saving your ass is.

(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic. Declaring an emergency means get everyone else receiving ATC service out of my path. You got to tell them so they can do this.
 
Last edited:
The only total engine failure I experienced (in 1981) requiring an off-airport landing occurred over very unsurvivable terrain. The thought of using the radio never entered my mind. There was nothing ATC was going to do to help. Concentrating on finding a place to plant the plane was far more important than establishing communication to announce "send help I'm going down" towards a destination not even yet identified.

In retrospect, the thought of reaching out while airborne for help that would only arrive following the aftermath seemed defeatist. An intense focus on survival far outweighed worrying about becoming the fatality of an imminent crash that was not going to happen. I was definitely more surprised and mad, than being scared. But extremely focused... death wasn't an option.

Communication was only established once safely parked on a slab of ice positioned against the river's shoreline. Aviate, Navigate and Communicate. Yes.
 
Clip4 said:
91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.


That means talking to ATC is not your priority.

(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic. Declaring an emergency means get everyone else receiving ATC service out of my path.
Click to expand...
As my coffee cup says: Aviate, Navigate, Caffeinate.
 
Initial Fix said:
The word I is very powerful in an emergency. For example… I need XYZ. I will be doing ABC. You as PIC are in control, ATC is trying to be helpful (and do a fantastic job trying to help) but you drive what you need.
Click to expand...

Only once have I been close to declaring, it was winter and I entered a cloud. After a while it started raining in the cloud, and I said “Hey, it’s raining in this cloud.” Then I looked at the leading edges and said “Expletive, that ain’t rain, thats ICE!”

I immediately started a left 180 and hit the button and told ATC what I was doing and why. She came back with maintain heading and altitude. I came back with “I am in SLD icing and I need out of this cloud now!”

With that she got with the program and allowed maneuvering. Had she not the next transmission would have been to declare an emergency because SLD in a single IS an emergency.
 
bonefishpete said:
I think passengers and fuel quantity question is dumb.
I know they have their reasons.
Click to expand...
It's not dumb. They want to know how long you have left before you become a glider, how much fuel they might need to extinguish, and how many bodies they are looking for if you screw up.
 
I've had three engine failures in helicopters. Only one was I able to get a radio call off. Thankfully it was my night time one!

All other emergencies that I have declared, I have never been too bothered by the event or ATC.
 
Hang 4 said:
How many fire trucks to roll out and how much foam to spray on the fuel.
Click to expand...

You think an airliner coming in for emergency and fire rescue is going to calculate how many fire trucks needed? They gonna send them all.
 
RyanShort1 said:
It's not dumb. They want to know how long you have left before you become a glider, how much fuel they might need to extinguish, and how many bodies they are looking for if you screw up.
Click to expand...

So ATC knows the fuel burn in pounds for the various aircraft flying in their area?
Passenger list with names can be supplied with the passenger manifest later.
Doubt the firemen are counting bodies when they roll up.
 
It helps them determine what resources are needed. How many and what type of fire apparatus (CFR engine, or is a regular pumper engine sufficient; one engine or multiple; can the venue fire department handle or will they need mutual aid), how many ambulances, if the hospitals need to prepare for a mass casualty incident.
 
ateamer said:
It helps them determine what resources are needed. How many and what type of fire apparatus (CFR engine, or is a regular pumper engine sufficient; one engine or multiple; can the venue fire department handle or will they need mutual aid), how many ambulances, if the hospitals need to prepare for a mass casualty incident.
Click to expand...

OK I wasn't clear. I meant a large airliner say a 737-800? Does all this matter if it is half full of fuel and passengers or full of fuel and passengers? Would the emergency response be different? I doubt it.

To me it's a distraction to the pilots that are working through their problems.

Now GA aircraft are different as there may be no passenger manifest. You need to know how many people you're looking for.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top