Commercial Flight Training Practice - How much on Own vs with CFI?

WDD

WDD

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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
Will be starting flight training for the Commercial in a short while.

My question is specifically about practicing the lazy 8's, short field, engine out 180, etc. When you all did this flight training, how much was done with a CFI (all?) vs how much did you practice the maneuvers on your own?

Of course, the CFI has to be present for the training requirements of Complex/TAA, VFR Day and Night, etc.

Thanks!
 
It depends.

How well can you self critique? If you can see your mistakes and analyze them, you can get a lot out of solo practice. Otherwise, you will be hurting yourself.
 
Solo practice is indispensable. I did the Commercial in my own aircraft, so I could.practice any time I wanted. And the same is true for my clients, since I work with aircraft owners - they can and do go practice on their own. It is extremely valuable and reduces the amount of time I have to spend on each maneuver. Also, they're really easy to practice when you're on a normal trip, assuming you're still flying regularly while training - obviously not so great with passengers though.
 
I ended up doing more with my CFI than solo. Granted my CFI and I are partners in our sundowner, so it was pretty convenient.

Having the critique as I went was helpful for me personally, but there is certainly value and confidence built in doing these solo as well.

I think the ratio is really up to the pilot, your abilities, confidence, and ability to critique. With the critique, you also have to know the ACS and ensure you’re actually doing things right. Mistakes at times can be harder to catch.

I don’t think there is one simple answer unfortunately. Do what feels right for you and consult your CFI


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I don’t know how much time I practiced alone for the commercial check ride. But I remember that eights on pylons and power-off 180s were the two maneuvers I practiced the most on my own. Chandelles and lazy eights were the two that I did the most for fun. I’d say that you are ready to practice a maneuver on your own about the time you start telling the CFI “don’t say it, I know what I did wrong on that one,” assume he agrees with your assessment, of course.
 
I flew with an instructor just long enough to get signed off for the checkride, 3 hours.
 
Never practiced any of it solo. Two dual flights then a checkride.

I didn't find any of the maneuvers fun to do, but I've done a chandelle or two since since I found it technically interesting.
 
Kritchlow said:
Never sure I did my commercial maneuvers exactly right. Then again, In 40 years of aviation I’ve never been asked by ATC do do a chandelle to the right.
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Always to the left, amiright?
 
It may depend on how well you control the airplane to begin with. I didn't know how to do any of the maneuvers, so I flew with a CFI to learn the maneuvers and how to do them correctly. Did that for a couple of flights. I never practiced the airwork solo. But I know how to do steep turns, for example, so it was just a matter of learning the tricks to get it exactly right for the checkride. I did practice the power-off 180 solo, but I found that was actually a waste of time bc another body in the airplane makes a huge difference. But again, if you're still working on gross aircraft control, more solo time may be worthwhile.
 
texasclouds said:
American 123Heavy, Tokyo Approach, please perform a lazy eight before intercepting the localizer…
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Tokyo Approach, American 123 Heavy, level 8,000, student pilot.

One warning about the commercial maneuvers... If you fly in slower planes, you might have a bad dream about eights on pylons, in which you calculate the pivotal altitude for a Cub to be 50 AGL. In my dream, that's how the math worked out. And then I was actually flying eights on pylons at risk of CFIC (controlled flight into cow).
 
I did all of my practicing with CFI. I thought about doing some practice on my own but couldn't figure out how to give myself really accurate real-time feedback/corrections for each maneuver.

Since my ticket, I've definitely done Chandelles (Left and Right ;)) - they're great for climbing through a hole in a cloud layer!
 
kaiser said:
I did all of my practicing with CFI. I thought about doing some practice on my own but couldn't figure out how to give myself really accurate real-time feedback/corrections for each maneuver.
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I agree with this, especially for Lazy 8s.

Chandelles too maybe.

On the 8s-on-pylons it’s easy to know when you screw up, maybe a bit harder to figure out how to fix what you’re doing wrong, but if you’ve flown it a few times, you know what to correct. I just like to have another pair of eyes from an obstacle standpoint.

The landings and take offs are the simplest things to do solo after 1 or 2 flights with an instructor. On the landings, you just kinda gotta figure out what the plane needs in the various winds and configurations and be able to give it to her to hit your spot. Practice and know your plane.

All that being said, I did my CPL ground and written Jan-Mar ‘22. I started the flying portion in April and set a checkride target for August (would be slammed schedule-wise Sept-Dec). Plane went out of service for 6 weeks mid-summer waiting on parts. When I got the plane back, and finishing up for checkride, I had only 2 weeks left, and CPL bled into September. By then I was on 3-5 hours sleep and tripled caffeine intake. Mock checkride with my CFI and I failed half my maneuvers, not even close.

So I “postponed” my certificate and training, but I told myself “you quitter”; never felt so low about myself, but now I realize WTF was I thinking, lol - full time job, full time PhD course load, plus taking care of family, and trying to do CPL. Kind of ridiculous that I didn’t see it (kinda stupid when I type it out). Yeah, I’m not right.
 
455 Bravo Uniform - that's funny!

Between no flights after work (because of lack of daylight this time of year) leaving only weekends, and how busy the CFI's are, it maybe slow-going getting time with the CFI for now. I'll see how things work out.
 
iamtheari said:
Tokyo Approach, American 123 Heavy, level 8,000, student pilot.

One warning about the commercial maneuvers... If you fly in slower planes, you might have a bad dream about eights on pylons, in which you calculate the pivotal altitude for a Cub to be 50 AGL. In my dream, that's how the math worked out. And then I was actually flying eights on pylons at risk of CFIC (controlled flight into cow).
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do you even learner pilot, bruh?
 
I did a fair amount of power off 180 practice solo. Mostly to really nail down the visuals of hitting the spot so I wasn't trying to use a rote formula of distance, power and speed but actually seeing what I needed to fix. I've done all the air work either solo or with a friend along (to show them what I was learning) but not much for practice. Frankly eights on pylons were so easy I nailed them to standards from the first one I did. I don't know why they were so easy for me but they were. Chandelles in the DA-40 (I switched from 172 when I went to the intensive training) were more challenging for me.

Hmm. I need to go get single engine current again next week. Maybe I'll go do some of these again to see what I've lost...
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I agree with this, especially for Lazy 8s.

Chandelles too maybe.

On the 8s-on-pylons it’s easy to know when you screw up, maybe a bit harder to figure out how to fix what you’re doing wrong, but if you’ve flown it a few times, you know what to correct. I just like to have another pair of eyes from an obstacle standpoint.

The landings and take offs are the simplest things to do solo after 1 or 2 flights with an instructor. On the landings, you just kinda gotta figure out what the plane needs in the various winds and configurations and be able to give it to her to hit your spot. Practice and know your plane.

All that being said, I did my CPL ground and written Jan-Mar ‘22. I started the flying portion in April and set a checkride target for August (would be slammed schedule-wise Sept-Dec). Plane went out of service for 6 weeks mid-summer waiting on parts. When I got the plane back, and finishing up for checkride, I had only 2 weeks left, and CPL bled into September. By then I was on 3-5 hours sleep and tripled caffeine intake. Mock checkride with my CFI and I failed half my maneuvers, not even close.

So I “postponed” my certificate and training, but I told myself “you quitter”; never felt so low about myself, but now I realize WTF was I thinking, lol - full time job, full time PhD course load, plus taking care of family, and trying to do CPL. Kind of ridiculous that I didn’t see it (kinda stupid when I type it out). Yeah, I’m not right.
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Can’t fail yourself for trying, plenty of people do not try. Give yourself a break and some credit.
 
On an almost related topic, how much can you "double dip" on the requirements? Specifically, if I do the 2 hour Day VFR and 2 Hour Night VFR X Country with the instructor in a retract/complex, does that 4 hours also count to the Complex/TAA requirement? Or will the DPE say "come on now - you were either training to manually retract the gear OR training to not get lost, but you weren't doing both at the same time."
 
WDD said:
On an almost related topic, how much can you "double dip" on the requirements? Specifically, if I do the 2 hour Day VFR and 2 Hour Night VFR X Country with the instructor in a retract/complex, does that 4 hours also count to the Complex/TAA requirement? Or will the DPE say "come on now - you were either training to manually retract the gear OR training to not get lost, but you weren't doing both at the same time."
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What do the regs say?

ETA: A big portion of your checkride oral will likely be on understanding the relevant regulations.
 
The regs say ask the POA, as you're just starting to sort out and confirm the nuts and bolts of this certificate. If you already knew everything you wouldn't be asking and learning.

Now, digging further, you see that you need 20 hours of instruction that include 10 of Instrument, 10 of Complex/TAA, 2 hour VFR Day, 2 hour VFR Night, and 3 hour check ride prep. Now since 10+10+2+2+3 = more than 20, yes, there has to some allowed overlap.

Besides helpful members who say "read the book", has anyone had any pushback from a DPE on any type of double dipping of the any of the hours/requirements?
 
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I just sat for my COM check and had no pushback on “double dip”. This included using long IFR day XC to count for the COM day XC. Worth noting my instrument training was logged to comply with part 61 requirements for commercial instrument training.
 
WDD said:
The regs say ask the POA, as you're just starting to sort out and confirm the nuts and bolts of this certificate. If you already knew everything you wouldn't be asking and learning.

Now, digging further, you see that you need 20 hours of instruction that include 10 of Instrument, 10 of Complex/TAA, 2 hour VFR Day, 2 hour VFR Night, and 3 hour check ride prep. Now since 10+10+2+2+3 = more than 20, yes, there has to some allowed overlap.

Besides helpful members who say "read the book", has anyone had any pushback from a DPE on any type of double dipping of the any of the hours/requirements?
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Note that the 10 hours is Complex OR TAA. If you fly a complex airplane that is a TAA, you’re doing both (“double dipping”), but you meet the requirement with either one.

Also note that if you’re instrument rated, you have ten hours of instrument instruction already. You just need to ensure that your logbook reflects the tasks listed in (3)(i). If your instrument instructor didn’t log those specific tasks, you only need enough instrument instruction to log those tasks, not the full 10 hours.
 
That is an angle I had not thought of. You can be Daytime Conditions and IMC. Although if IMC I wonder what’s the point of day vs night?
 
WDD said:
That is an angle I had not thought of. You can be Daytime Conditions and IMC. Although if IMC I wonder what’s the point of day vs night?
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Keep in mind that the Commercial is a VFR checkride…the most likely assumption would be that pilotage looks different day vs night.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Note that the 10 hours is Complex OR TAA. If you fly a complex airplane that is a TAA, you’re doing both (“double dipping”), but you meet the requirement with either one.

Also note that if you’re instrument rated, you have ten hours of instrument instruction already. You just need to ensure that your logbook reflects the tasks listed in (3)(i). If your instrument instructor didn’t log those specific tasks, you only need enough instrument instruction to log those tasks, not the full 10 hours.
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So if you did all your training for the instrument rating in a complex TAA then that would be a triple-dip? No further need for 61.129(a)(3)(i & ii) prior to starting training for the commercial?
 
asicer said:
So if you did all your training for the instrument rating in a complex TAA then that would be a triple-dip? No further need for 61.129(a)(3)(i & ii) prior to starting training for the commercial?
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Provided all of the areas of operation required were logged, yes.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Provided all of the areas of operation required were logged, yes.
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Wow, OK. Thanks.

So since I already have 61.129(a)(1,2,4) in my logbook, the only thing standing in the way between me and a commercial checkride is:
  • One 2hr XC day with a CFI (satisfied during instrument training?)
  • One 2hr XC night with a CFI
  • 3hrs prep with a CFI
  • Written
Still not sure I want to do it though. I don't foresee my flying life being any different with a commercial ticket vs without. Maybe I'll get more junk mail afterwards?
 
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Biggest learning for me was evolving my mindset, always considering a passenger in the back. So the emphasis is slow and smooth. This is true for take off, landing and performance maneuvers. Including stall recovery. Being in tune with the aircraft not just jerking it around the sky.
 
asicer said:
Wow, OK. Thanks.

So since I already have 61.129(a)(1,2,4) in my logbook, the only thing standing in the way between me and a commercial checkride is:
  • One 2hr XC day with a CFI
  • One 2hr XC night with a CFI
  • 3hrs prep with a CFI
  • Written
Still not sure I want to do it though. I don't foresee my flying life being any different with a commercial ticket vs without. Maybe I'll get more junk mail afterwards?
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Don’t forget about .127(b)(1) per .129(a)(3), as well as proficiency in the maneuvers.
 
asicer said:
Wow, OK. Thanks.

So since I already have 61.129(a)(1,2,4) in my logbook, the only thing standing in the way between me and a commercial checkride is:
  • One 2hr XC day with a CFI (satisfied during instrument training?)
  • One 2hr XC night with a CFI
  • 3hrs prep with a CFI
  • Written
Still not sure I want to do it though. I don't foresee my flying life being any different with a commercial ticket vs without. Maybe I'll get more junk mail afterwards?
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Remember those XCs have to be 100 NM away, not just 50.

As far as what to do with your Commercial, maybe nothing. But you have the option. I have no idea what kind of time in various types you have, but let's say someone wanted you to ferry a 172 (or whatever you're familiar with) a few states over, paying for your time and all costs incurred. Would you want to do it? Would you consider it an interesting diversion from your normal flying, seeing new places, etc.? If so, then get the Commercial, as it opens up those opportunities.
 
other than an occasional PO180 just for funsies and comm steep turns, I haven't done a single comm maneuver since. during training, a deficiency in steep turns to the right became exposed, no idea where it came from, but I practiced those until I fixed the glitch. no more glitch, but every now and then just to prove to myself that I don't completely suck, I bang out a coupl'a steep turns.
 
asicer said:
Still not sure I want to do it though.
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1) Become more proficient
2) Bragging rights, wearing epaulets on your shirts and wearing cool dark sun glasses when going to Chic fil A, and making your wife/ significant other swoon and get the vapors.
 
Hardly any was with a CFI, get the visualized flight maneuvers book and have at it, have a sticky note with the bust criteria, +/-10kts 100’ or 10 degrees, minus 0 plus…uhh 100’ on landing I think?

The most time spent on a CPL ride is just going through your logbook

Understand what you can do 91 and what you have to be on a 135 for
 
eman1200 said:
other than an occasional PO180 just for funsies and comm steep turns, I haven't done a single comm maneuver since. during training, a deficiency in steep turns to the right became exposed, no idea where it came from, but I practiced those until I fixed the glitch. no more glitch, but every now and then just to prove to myself that I don't completely suck, I bang out a coupl'a steep turns.
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Even on 6mo pro pilot rides everyone always has a preferred turn direction
 
RussR said:
Remember those XCs have to be 100 NM away, not just 50.
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My IR XC day was >100nm and >2hrs.
RussR said:
As far as what to do with your Commercial, maybe nothing. But you have the option. I have no idea what kind of time in various types you have, but let's say someone wanted you to ferry a 172 (or whatever you're familiar with) a few states over, paying for your time and all costs incurred. Would you want to do it? Would you consider it an interesting diversion from your normal flying, seeing new places, etc.? If so, then get the Commercial, as it opens up those opportunities.
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I would consider it an interesting diversion but I'd have to be pretty bored to actually pull the trigger.
WDD said:
1) Become more proficient
2) Bragging rights, wearing epaulets on your shirts and wearing cool dark sun glasses when going to Chic fil A, and making your wife/ significant other swoon and get the vapors.
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  1. For a while, maybe. I have a feeling I'd revert back to the mean of whatever is the majority of my flying at the time.
  2. I'm not the bragging type. :)
 
asicer said:
My IR XC day was >100nm and >2hrs.

I would consider it an interesting diversion but I'd have to be pretty bored to pull the trigger.

  1. For a while, maybe. I have a feeling I'd revert back to the mean of whatever is the majority of my flying at the time.
  2. I'm not the bragging type. :)
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Getting your commercial, if you’re not going to work in the industry, is not going to make you a better pilot at all, maybe better at memorizing a few regs and keeping a clean logbook

Want to be a better pilot go do a aerobatics course or get your glider add on
 
For a low time “hobby” pilot, the CPL training made me a better “stick”. Same as the IR made me a more precise pilot. I’d guess it has to do with number of hours. That’s my experience.

Also, after a few month layoff, 2 flights at the end of December and I got my sea-legs back.
 
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