(Comfortably) Buying a plane without a prebuy?

MarkH

MarkH

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MarkH
I have been shopping for a plane for the last year, and twice I have made it to the prebuy stage before finding issues that cause me to walk away.
I have spent a fair bit of money on shop time, and that money has best case saved me thousands more and worst case prevented a disaster.
Nothing about this thread is questioning the value of a prebuy, especially if the purchaser is an inexperienced owner.

But when I sold my last plane, the buyer arrived with cash, took a walk around the plane and filled out the paperwork.

The first time he heard the engine run, was during the taxi out for his flight home. It clearly worked out for him, because while (in this insane market) I have not been able to replace my plane in over a year, he resold the plane for $10k more about 16 months later.

I am curious, under what situation would you be comfortable buying a plane without a prebuy?
 
Only if I knew the owner was OCD about maintaining the plane.
Red flags: databases not up to date, INOP placard(s), paint/interior well past its prime, lights not workin, owner bragging on internet about how cheap he is, etc.
 
Word of mouth from people I trust, or specific make & model expertise, or a well known local plane. Or, if I had money to burn.
 
Or a low time plane still under warranty… perhaps.
 
Perhaps if it was exclusively maintained by an extremely well known A&P that I would trust with my life. And I had a long conversation with that A&P.
 
There are a lot of variables. Buying a fairly simple airplane, yes.
 
Okay i'll be on the other side of this. I barely got a pre-buy. It was because I knew I was buying a (flying) project. I knew everything would need to be gone through from bottom to top, so all I cared about was a solid corrosion-free airframe. And that's what I got. Everything else that was working was just a bonus. I don't regret my pre-buy (or lack there of) one bit. I also feel like if you've been around planes for long enough you know what to look for and what are signs that other things might be amiss. At this point I'd feel confident walking into any Skywagon purchase without a pre-buy since I know the type so well.

Before:
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After:
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A couple of data points:
1. I bought my first C182 without a pre-buy. I was buying 1/4, so the risk was much lower. I spoke with the members and talked to the mechanic. That's it.
2. The broker that sold me my second C182 does not do pre-buys when they buy the planes. They buy their planes all around the country, bring them to either Indiana or AZ, where they sell them. They ran into problems with pre-buys too rarely to waste time on them, so they stopped.
 
I have owned three airplanes. The first two were being maintained by the local shop where I knew the owner and had no questions about the condition of the aircraft. The third one was located only about 45 miles away, and I had an A&P/IA friend do the pre-buy. When I sold it to a guy far away, I recommended he have a pre-buy done by someone who had not worked on the airplane, and that worked out great for both of us.
 
I just sold another one with no PPI and the buyers not even wanting to hear it run. These guys actually came and saw the plane prior to making an offer.

I've bought several aircraft with no PPI and without laying eyes on the aircraft until I picked it up. I've ferried even more that were purchased the same way. While it isn't an absolute solution the best outcomes in cases like this seem to be if you buy either a premium aircraft with a premium price or you buy at the bottom end and expect that it will be a mess. The aircraft priced in the middle are often more of a project than the buyer realizes, regardless if a PPI is performed or not, and end up with the new owner feeling like they were shortchanged.
 
I’ve purchased two airplanes without a pre-buy.

First one was my Waco. It had been freshly restored and well documented. It was virtually brand new. Freshly overhauled engine.
I did what amounted to a preflight walkthrough and it was clear to me that there was nothing significant for an A&P to find. Had very few maintenance issues with that airplane.

Second was my T6. A friend who is an A&P IA had listed it for sale and was the one doing the maintenance. I bought it sight unseen and no inspection based on trusting him. We’re still friends.
 
I did.

The situation was I casually mentioned to my mechanic that I was looking for a Lance. He told me about a plane he'd been doing the annual on for many years probably being for sale but not yet listed. Said it was a "good plane and I should buy it". I would have taken anything I was looking at to him for a prebuy anyway. This plane also happened to be sharing a community hangar with me and I'd walked by it for years and it always seemed to be in excellent condition.

4 years in and there haven't been any major issues.
 
When I bought the Cherokee (which I sold in the meantime), I bought it sight unseen with no inspection. It was based 800 miles away from me and priced $20k below any other Cherokee with similar engine/AF hours. I did three things:

1. I talked to the owner about the plane.
2. I talked to his mechanic about the plane.
3. I required him to ferry the plane to me and I'll wait with cash in hand and a commercial return ticket.

He accepted. I figured if he will fly the plane 800 miles to deliver it, it can't be too broken. The plane served me well for the almost two years I owned it. When I sold it, the new owner also didn't do a pre-buy. He ran up the plane on the ground, handed me a check and took off.
 
I have bought two planes and sold one. Did prebuys with both and the prebuys more than paid for themselves by finding minor squawks that allowed me to negotiate a slightly lower price to cover the needed repairs. None of the issues were deal breakers, but even if they did not pay for themselves the piece of mind was well worth it. So if I buy another plane I would definitely have a prebuy.
 
This thread is mostly concerned with certified aircraft (I get that) but here again the experimental world may have something to offer.

Having built and repaired a few different types of experimental aircraft I would feel fairly comfortable doing my own inspection on a plane of the type I've built/worked on or those that are very similar. Admittedly most two seat experimental aircraft are pretty simple builds and should be easy to inspect if you are familiar with basic aircraft construction. Having a set of build plans is immensely helpful. Since I have little to zero experience with wood & composite aircraft I wouldn't consider trying to analyze the airworthiness of those types of planes.

As others have noted, having good records of service & repairs done by a competent A&P that is willing to give their honest assessment of the plane is also valuable.
 
Price is low enough that I wouldn't mind a big maintenance bill the next day. The "This Old Cherokee" blog comes to mind. Bought the Cherokee that had been sitting on the ramp for 10 years and restored it. The blog used to have a list of everything he spent.
 
Only if I knew the owner well and knew they treated the plane well.

When we were looking for a 201, we were at the bottom of the market. As we were scraping the bottom of the barrel, pre buys saved us from buying a couple of disasters, and then we finally found us 642. She’s been a great bird, 17 years and no major issues, just what you’d expect for 17 years of ops.
 
If it was a local plane? I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a plane I wanted with no prebuy. A plane that’s across the country? I probably wouldn’t be interested in the first place but I’d be okay with doing my own inspection unless it was a type that was new to me or had a turbine.
 
I went across the country to buy my V-tail. I had talked with the last couple of A&Ps and each remembered the plane and the work done. Once I saw the plane I looked it over....and it was super cheap so I wasn't that concerned, only that it would make the trip across the country from Bend Oregon to Frederick MD. And it did fine.

Either way....it's a crap shoot. Stuff happens and there is no perfect plane.
 
I think about the only time I'd buy a plane without doing a pre-buy is if I was in a partnership with the plane already and I was buying out the other partner. Other than that, definitely a pre-buy.

Heck, the last used car I bought I got a pre-buy (well, it was a CarMax purchase where you had 5 or 7 days to return it, during which I got it inspected). And there's a lot less risk with a car.
 
cowman said:
I did.

The situation was I casually mentioned to my mechanic that I was looking for a Lance. He told me about a plane he'd been doing the annual on for many years probably being for sale but not yet listed. Said it was a "good plane and I should buy it". I would have taken anything I was looking at to him for a prebuy anyway. This plane also happened to be sharing a community hangar with me and I'd walked by it for years and it always seemed to be in excellent condition.

4 years in and there haven't been any major issues.
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I'm glad it worked for you, but if you would have taken it to him for a pre-buy anyway, doesn't that defeat the point of the usual advice to NOT have the pre-buy mechanic be the same person that's done the annuals?
 
I bought both planes with a "Pre Buy" (Those are finger quotes)
I gave an A&P $500 and said "look at the things you would want to look at if you were flying your kids in this thing. Call me if you see a show stopper or if you are going to exceed the $500"

With my Grumman, I got a gem. That plane was pristine. I could tell from looking at it that the owner was meticulous. He offered to have his son fly it from Connecticut to Texas to deliver it and I assume he had a great deal of love for his son. First time I heard the Grumman engine run was when it landed in Texas.

The Comanche is a solid plane that I knew I would be paying to fix some stuff over time but no corrosion and solid engine. I didn't want to pay a ton of money for someone to tell me the baffling is rough, the landing gear is getting close, the engine mounts are near the end of life, etc. I flew the Comanche before I bought it.

On both planes, I did get all of the logs and have them reviewed by my A&P and also @EdFred.
 
A prebuy is like calling s restaurant to see it they serve dinner. Is that supper or lunch? It means different things to different people.

I wouldn’t give any mechanic I didn’t know well a dollar to inspect anything or work on anything. If I thought a potential purchase needed a mecanic’s eyes? I’d pay my mechanic to travel and look at it.
 
dans2992 said:
Or a low time plane still under warranty… perhaps.
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+1

My first plane was 1 year old, less than 200 hours and was under warranty for a few years. I talked to the shop that had just done its first annual for 10-15 minutes, he told me it had no issues and I sent the money. Very easy purchase experience for a first timer.
 
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RussR said:
I'm glad it worked for you, but if you would have taken it to him for a pre-buy anyway, doesn't that defeat the point of the usual advice to NOT have the pre-buy mechanic be the same person that's done the annuals?
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Well in my case it was either go to this guy, the mechanic I knew and I'd been going to for years for the plane I already had OR go find some random person that I'd never met before. I think usually in that scenario the seller isn't based at your home field and using the same mechanic. I do get the other reasoning behind it really didn't seem like much of a risk at that point since all parties involved were trustworthy locals.
 
I would need to personally know the seller and their maintenance habits. It seems you’ve already learned that pre-buy inspections have saved you a lot of heartburn, so I don’t see any reason to forego them now. I know some folks who bought an airplane sight unseen and negative pre-buy and it’s been a disaster. Sometimes you get lucky, but I just wouldn’t do it unless you’re prepared to correct a laundry list of deferred maintenance.
 
I'm probably a bit of an outlier here. I would never buy a plane without a prebuy. Even the one I'd flown for 9 months as a renter and knew 3 different A/P's that had preformed annuals on it.
Hired another A/P and went through it with a fine tooth comb, including pulling every inspection plate, borescope of wing spars, cylinders, valves, etc. Even sent in an oil sample and waited for results.
Some might think it's silly, but it's my money, my family, and no warranty.
A contributing factor is that it was based at my home field, so very easy access. Going to be somewhat more expensive and time consuming if it's far away.

Too bad building isn't quick and easy.
 
Literally every single airplane sale is different so one buyer’s experience will never be a 1:1. I’m on plane #7 and two purchases without pre-buys. It’s a very circumstantial thing. My factors would be familiarity with the type, recency of flight hours, distance between buyer and seller, ease of personal inspection, price, resale value, etc…
 
Daleandee said:
This thread is mostly concerned with certified aircraft (I get that) but here again the experimental world may have something to offer.

Having built and repaired a few different types of experimental aircraft I would feel fairly comfortable doing my own inspection on a plane of the type I've built/worked on or those that are very similar. Admittedly most two seat experimental aircraft are pretty simple builds and should be easy to inspect if you are familiar with basic aircraft construction. Having a set of build plans is immensely helpful. Since I have little to zero experience with wood & composite aircraft I wouldn't consider trying to analyze the airworthiness of those types of planes.

As others have noted, having good records of service & repairs done by a competent A&P that is willing to give their honest assessment of the plane is also valuable.
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Interestingly enough, this thread was inspired by seeing Fly Babys and Baby Aces listed on Barnstormers at prices where the pre-buy would be 10% of the purchase price.

Its not explicitly concerned with certified aircraft.
 
MarkH said:
Interestingly enough, this thread was inspired by seeing Fly Babys and Baby Aces listed on Barnstormers at prices where the pre-buy would be 10% of the purchase price.

Its not explicitly concerned with certified aircraft.
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When I purchased a Flybaby, I arranged for the seller's mechanic to perform the annual condition inspection with me present. I trusted my own judgement and by doing this was able to see the airplane all opened up and inspect along with the mechanic. By the end of this, I knew exactly what I was buying. I think I paid about $200 to the buyer's mechanic.

Generally it's frowned upon to use the seller's mechanic, but, by doing so, I was able to keep the costs minimal and had the opportunity to see everything very closely with my own eyes (which is all I cared about).
 
jesse said:
I was able to keep the costs minimal and had the opportunity to see everything very closely with my own eyes (which is all I cared about)
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That was a main factor for me too, although I did want a fresh set of A/P eyes on it as well.
I also hired the guy who would be doing the annual if/when I purchased.
 
I had my A/P do the pre buy. When I had a good idea of condition, we renegotiated the price and I turned it into an annual inspection, since it was due in another month or so.
 
MarkH said:
Interestingly enough, this thread was inspired by seeing Fly Babys and Baby Aces listed on Barnstormers at prices where the pre-buy would be 10% of the purchase price.

Its not explicitly concerned with certified aircraft.
Click to expand...

There were Cessna & Piper aircraft mentioned and while you may have been inspired by experimental aircraft that wasn't clear until you mentioned it (post #30).

I'm with you on the experimental side! Not sure I would be in aviation at all if it were not for the freedom of experimental aircraft and the no medical deal with Sport Pilot. I can pass a medical but I cannot see having to do the FAA medical dance to the music they are playing now. The cost of maintenance on some of these certified planes is extraordinary when a small simple part is ridiculously priced.

I have no qualms with anyone buying and paying someone else to maintain their aircraft. I'm a freedom loving American so I take the path where I believe I have the most freedom ...
 
The only reason I would skip the pre-buy is if buying from a known, fastidious, owner, or a plane maintained by my durrent mechanic, who will know the plane and its maintenance and AD history well.

My current plane was maintained by a well-known type-sepcific mechanic, but not locally known to me. I did a pre-buy anyway at my home airport. The plane was indeed found to have been well-maintained, but it is still necessary to verify you are not looking at hidden AD, corrosion, or other expensive compliance issues.
 
If I was familiar with the shop that maintains the airplane and a deep dive through the logs.
 
I’m on plane #5 and I’ve done 1 pre-buy.

The “rest of the story” is the other 4 were projects priced as such. If you are looking for a hands off fly away pristine beauty priced as such, a pre buy is essential.

Like everything in aviation ownership, the answer is it depends.
 
MarkH said:
I am curious, under what situation would you be comfortable buying a plane without a prebuy?
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Bought 4 planes, never done a prebuy beyond my own investigation.
 
martym said:
Bought 4 planes, never done a prebuy beyond my own investigation.
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You should offer your consulting services. Me? If I ever buy one, it will be the first and last time. I'll pay for an expert to look it over to help me manage the risk.
 
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