Challenges in Self-Driving Car Development

1RTK1 said:
If you are talking about driving in mountains, extremely cold weather, towing etc. you are never going to get there average milage stated. The Ford lightning when towing minor loads drops WELL over half according to all the reports I have read.
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Yep, and your 22mpg is going to drop to 10 also. But none of this was the question! He was asking what the definition of 300 mile batteries was.
 
300 miles in the best possible conditions before your car will stop.. and you will probably not get that milage. My nephew has a new tesla, self drive is cool, battery charging on trips isn't even though it will tell you where to get a charge.
 
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I'll admit I was initially against self driving technology, but even I'm starting to see the light. Under 95% of conditions, it will likely be safer than standard vehicles. There will be odd situations the vehicles are programmed for. I believe there was a Tesla that killed its driver after a semi turned in front of it and the car drove under the trailer, but would a human driver been able to react faster or differently.

Long highway road trips would be a great improvement. What makes those long drives so tiring is having to stay engaged in the driving process for so long.

As for the pedestrian detection systems, wouldn't it be easier to train pedestrians to look both ways than to count on the car to detect them?
 
Self driving would reduce traffic tremendously if all vehicle could communicate with each other making merging etc. more efficient.
 
The range is the forecast, and yes 100-0.

I usually get better than that due to our traffic. Unlike gas trucks, range goes up in traffic due to the regen braking.

I usually charge at home which couldn’t be easier. On trips, I usually stop every 2.5-3 hours for coffee/pee and at the superchagers I can add about 200 miles range in that time. Might be harder if you are away from major roads, but for me it’s quite easy.
 
1RTK1 said:
Self driving would reduce traffic tremendously if all vehicle could communicate with each other making merging etc. more efficient.
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I've read and seen examples where many traffic jams are simply caused by one vehicle, usually in the left lane, tapping their brakes. Then the car behind them taps theirs, then the next one hits the brakes a little harder, until eventually every car comes to a halt for no reason. If all vehicles could maintain pace and spacing equally, our freeways systems would operate much more efficiently.
 
172andyou said:
Pics or it didn't happen
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This is a good analysis of Rober's video. Also includes video of what FSD can do today.


Here's a video of the test recreated but with FSD engaged. HW3 with v12.5 fails, HW4 (AI4) with v13.2.8 stops.


The current version of FSD for HW3 is v12.6.4. 12.6 was a big upgrade from 12.5 so it would be interesting to see how it would do.

midlifeflyer said:
While I'm in learning phase, when someone talks about a 300 mile battery, what do they mean? I know that the 300 is an estimate and that power use depends on driving conditions. What I'm asking is is that 300 based on a battery going from 100% to 0% or is it based on what I think is a norm of 80% max to 20% min.
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A "300 mile battery" doesn't mean much at all because there are too many variables.

My car is rated (EPA) for 353 miles. That is at a consumption rate, Watt-hours per mile (Wh/mi), that is a combination of city and highway driving. I did a little testing and I match that consumption rate at around 50 or 55 mph. That was determined under the old EPA rating scale. The new one is more realistic. 70-mph highway tests are meeting, or even exceeding, the newer ratings on many cars. See the range tests on the Out of Spec YouTube channel.

If I leave my house at 75%, I can drive around town running errands all day without ever having to think about range.

The only time range is a consideration is on road trips. The simple answer is to plug your destination into the car's navigation and stop to charge whenever it tells you to. With a little experience, you'll learn when you want to tweak it's charging stops to better fit what you want to do.

EVs don't waste a significant amount of energy as heat from the engine and brakes as do ICE cars. Efficiency is almost completely tied to air resistance. Drag from air resistance increases at the square of velocity. The faster you go, the more drag you will have. That's why saying it's a "300 mile battery" is meaningless. At what speed? Drive slower and it'll go farther. Faster, not as far.

I think people who drive gas cars are focused on a range figure is that they know how many miles they can drive between gas stops. EVs don't work that way. In over 3-1/2 years, I've gone to the EV "gas station" twice. EV drivers don't think about range. They just plug in when they get home at night.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I've read and seen examples where many traffic jams are simply caused by one vehicle, usually in the left lane, tapping their brakes. Then the car behind them taps theirs, then the next one hits the brakes a little harder, until eventually every car comes to a halt for no reason. If all vehicles could maintain pace and spacing equally, our freeways systems would operate much more efficiently.
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Yeah, but ya gotta teach them to merge from two lanes to one without having to slow from 70 to 20 miles per hour, which apparently is a physical impossibility. :dunno:
 
midwestpa24 said:
I've read and seen examples where many traffic jams are simply caused by one vehicle, usually in the left lane, tapping their brakes. Then the car behind them taps theirs, then the next one hits the brakes a little harder, until eventually every car comes to a halt for no reason. If all vehicles could maintain pace and spacing equally, our freeways systems would operate much more efficiently.
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I’ve watched this numerous times while on photo missions.
 
Standardized tests have nothing to do with real world driving. It is a set of standardized protocols to be able to compare vehicles all the same way.

I used the statement "best possible" as an analogy. Didn't think it would get the reaction it did. My nephew never hits this standardized number, but he probably drives his tesla like a race car.
 
jbarrass said:
The range is the forecast, and yes 100-0.
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Thank you. I assume they keep working on higher capacity batteries and ways to charge faster. With the 2018 I drove, I was left thinking, “nice for a local commute but I can’t imagine a long road trip.”
 
Larry in TN said:
think people who drive gas cars are focused on a range figure is that they know how many miles they can drive between gas stops. EVs don't work that way. In over 3-1/2 years, I've gone to the EV "gas station" twice. EV drivers don't think about range. They just plug in when they get home at night
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Not really about “between” gas stops or really “range” either. “Time” would be more accurate. That last part is exactly my impression. Yes, very nice to go to work, shop, go home, and plug it in. But, when I first thought about renting one, it was with a road trip in mind. Just about 300 miles, a bit under 5 hours. Thank goodness I didn’t! Not yet anyway. I’m sure the day will come.
 
You assume correct. The new model Y (juniper) is shipping with 327 standard and 386 with the long range option.

The v4 superchargers are 600 amp.
 
Zeldman said:
I can't wait for NASCAR to go to fully self driving cars. No wrecks, no passing, cars finish in the same position they start in, no physical discussions and average speeds approaching 37mph....

Oh, and almost forgot, electric cars.... listen to those engines hum...
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And the 30 minute pit stops to charge…
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not really about “between” gas stops or really “range” either. “Time” would be more accurate. That last part is exactly my impression. Yes, very nice to go to work, shop, go home, and plug it in. But, when I first thought about renting one, it was with a road trip in mind. Just about 300 miles, a bit under 5 hours. Thank goodness I didn’t! Not yet anyway. I’m sure the day will come.
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That day is here. I make 300-400 mile trips in the truck most weekends for my daughter’s hockey. Usually stoping somewhere in route for coffee/pee and plug it in while I’m inside. Not any more stress than in the RAM.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I’ve watched this numerous times while on photo missions.
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I might've "accidentally" pointed a 40 million candlepower searchlight at an idiot blocking the left lane on I95, and someone else happened to turn on the 2000W siren at the same time.
That 2-mile long traffic jam cleared pretty fast once he got out of the way.
 
jbarrass said:
That day is here. I make 300-400 mile trips in the truck most weekends for my daughter’s hockey. Usually stoping somewhere in route for coffee/pee and plug it in while I’m inside. Not any more stress than in the RAM.
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how long does that charge take?
 
jsstevens said:
And the 30 minute pit stops to charge…
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If you're waiting around for 30 minutes, you probably aren't doing it right. It's not a gas car, you don't "fill it up" when you stop. You charge enough to get to your next stop, plus a little reserve, then you're on your way. Charge to higher levels when you aren't waiting for it to charge. That will produce a quicker trip than charging deep at each stop.

On a road trip, most stops will be in the 10 to 25 minute range. You can adjust that based on when you want to stop for food, restroom, and breaks. Take a longer break when you want to have lunch and short ones when you just need a restroom break or a cup of coffee.

midlifeflyer said:
how long does that charge take?
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Doesn't matter. It happens when you're sleeping. If you're waiting for it to charge, do I as posted above. On the 300-400 mile day John posted, you'll only need a few minutes of charging to finish out the day. Less than 10, in all likelihood.
 
Larry in TN said:
If you're waiting around for 30 minutes, you probably aren't doing it right. It's not a gas car, you don't "fill it up" when you stop. You charge enough to get to your next stop, plus a little reserve, then you're on your way. Charge to higher levels when you aren't waiting for it to charge. That will produce a quicker trip than charging deep at each stop.

On a road trip, most stops will be in the 10 to 25 minute range. You can adjust that based on when you want to stop for food, restroom, and breaks. Take a longer break when you want to have lunch and short ones when you just need a restroom break or a cup of coffee.


Doesn't matter. It happens when you're sleeping. If you're waiting for it to charge, do I as posted above. On the 300-400 mile day John posted, you'll only need a few minutes of charging to finish out the day. Less than 10, in all likelihood.
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It was a joke. Tacked onto another joke about self driving NASCAR races of electric cars.
 
flyingron said:
Years ago when I was working for the Army, I was asked to review a patent on "invisibility" where essentially the concept was put a big screen up and a camera on the far side of the object you wanted to hide and display the view without the object. I thought it was rather silly at the time, but I guess if we decide to roll out Teslas on the battlefield, it might have some promise.
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Ironically, that was Mark Rober's very first YouTube video, only it was a halloween costume:

 
Larry in TN said:
On a road trip, most stops will be in the 10 to 25 minute range. You can adjust that based on when you want to stop for food, restroom, and breaks. Take a longer break when you want to have lunch and short ones when you just need a restroom break or a cup of coffee.
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As opposed to 5 minutes fewer times or none at all? That’s a lot.

Larry in TN said:
Doesn't matter. It happens when you're sleeping
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I thought by now it was clear that my only concern about this is the long road trip.
midlifeflyer said:
Yes, very nice to go to work, shop, go home, and plug it in. But, when I first thought about renting one, it was with a road trip in mind. Just about 300 miles, a bit under 5 hours. Thank goodness I didn’t! Not yet anyway. I’m sure the day will come.
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Even the comment I asked the question to was talking about the longer road trip. And yes, we still take those.

I’m just saying it’s not quite there for me yet. Might well be there by the time I get my next car. Sorry, I didn’t realize I was entering zealot territory.
 
midlifeflyer said:
As opposed to 5 minutes fewer times or none at all? That’s a lot.
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Worse. Think about Thanksgiving travel. Everyone is heading 2 states away to see grandma. The lines at the charger at Bucee's are how long???
 
kyleb said:
Worse. Think about Thanksgiving travel. Everyone is heading 2 states away to see grandma. The lines at the charger at Bucee's are how long???
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Charger availability is one of a few things I didn’t mention since I consider that just part of the learning experience (the whole reason for the rental) and the simple fact that I did not have 240 charge capability at home. The latter especially meant extra diversions from my chosen route and colored a lot of the picture but would clearly be more manageable as an owner.

I had a great Turo host. He gave an excellent tutorial for the uninitiated and appreciated the few additions I suggested, mostly about charging.
 
asicer said:
Is your clothes dryer electric? Is it located in or near the garage?
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Not close enough.

We did use the 120. Overnight helped with the loss of charge overnight and added an extra 20-30 percent but obviously not a good as 240 would have been.
 
A log(sp) LOT of panels are in the garage, if they are, adding a 240v, 50a charger is generally very easy. If not, then yeah you have to get wire from here to there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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jsstevens said:
It was a joke. Tacked onto another joke about self driving NASCAR races of electric cars.
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It might be a joke to you, but others will read it and believe that it is true.

midlifeflyer said:
As opposed to 5 minutes fewer times or none at all?
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A road trip in an EV will take longer nut not nearly as long as many people think. Overall, an EV owner will spend far less time "fueling" their car as they'll eliminate all of the routine fuel stops in their daily lives. In 3-1/2 years of EV ownership I've been to an EV charging station exactly twice. Compare that to your gas stops in the last 3-1/2 years.

kyleb said:
Think about Thanksgiving travel. Everyone is heading 2 states away to see grandma. The lines at the charger at Bucee's are how long???
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I did take a road trip on Thanksgiving weekend. Left on Wednesday and returned on Friday. I made two charging stops at Tesla Supercharger stations. Both were at less than 25% capacity.

At least with Tesla's, when you navigate to a Supercharger, the car knows how many stalls are in use, how many other cars are navigating to that Supercharging station and when they'll arrive, and how long each car is planning to charge. If the station will be near capacity at your ETA it will re-route you to a station with lower demand.

I just saw a news article yesterday saying that California now has more public EV charging stalls than gas station pumps.

midlifeflyer said:
We did use the 120. Overnight helped with the loss of charge overnight and added an extra 20-30 percent but obviously not a good as 240 would have been.
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120V (Level 1) charging will be enough for some people but it doesn't give you much flexibility.

240V (Level 2) with at least a 30A circuit, as 24A continuous charging, will be plenty for most owners if the car sits at home overnight (or over-day). 240V/30A is a typical dryer circuit and is not difficult or expensive to install. Most go with a 240V/50A circuit, if running a new one. That will allow charging at up to 40A. Parts would cost under $150 plus the wire, that depends on the length of the run. The Tesla Universal Mobile Connector (UMC) is $275.

If you don't have Level 2 charging at home then you're losing the biggest benefit of owning an EV.
 
Larry in TN said:
It might be a joke to you, but others will read it and believe that it is true.
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Did you read it in context? If it's only a joke to me I'm doing it wrong...

Lighten up!
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don't have any panels in the garage, let alone a lot of them.
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I do. It's the sub-panel that has the CB for the majority of my home's circuits with the exception of the two HVAC units.

I could have run my EV charging off that sub-panel but it was a cleaner installation to run it out, through the crawlspace, to the main.

jsstevens said:
Lighten up!
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No! There is too much misinformation out there on the subject. People read it and believe it. Living with an EV is very different from what the common knowledge makes it out to be.
 
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