Challenges in Self-Driving Car Development

"New technology not instantly perfect overnight and needs a bit of development work" - more on this shock story at 11.

Of course, you are cherry-picking your quotes in a massively misleading manner. The AAA quote article also states:
  • "This research shows why effective pedestrian detection should come standard in every new car"
  • "We believe in the potential of pedestrian detection systems enough that we no longer give models credit to their Overall Score for having city speed AEB (systems that work at lower speeds as opposed to highway speeds) unless they also include pedestrian detection"
  • "Subaru’s EyeSight system when equipped with pedestrian detection cut the rate of likely pedestrian-related insurance claims by 35 percent when compared with the same vehicles without the system"
The one pedestrian fatality from a self driving car conveniently doesn't mention the 6,000+ pedestrian fatalities from dumb old human drivers.
 
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I wasn't trying to cherry-pick. I just thought that posting the links alone would be too user-unfriendly. Since you find the excerpts objectionable, I have removed them.
 
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Katamarino said:
"New technology not instantly perfect overnight and needs a bit of development work" - more on this shock story at 11.

Of course, you are cherry-picking your quotes in a massively misleading manner. The AAA quote article also states:
  • "This research shows why effective pedestrian detection should come standard in every new car"
  • "We believe in the potential of pedestrian detection systems enough that we no longer give models credit to their Overall Score for having city speed AEB (systems that work at lower speeds as opposed to highway speeds) unless they also include pedestrian detection"
  • "Subaru’s EyeSight system when equipped with pedestrian detection cut the rate of likely pedestrian-related insurance claims by 35 percent when compared with the same vehicles without the system"
The one pedestrian fatality from a self driving car conveniently doesn't mention the 6,000+ pedestrian fatalities from dumb old human drivers.
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What is the ratio of self-driving cars versus human-driven cars?

The only way self-driving cars could work would be if they were all self-driven and centrally-controlled by some Orwellian control center. Picture ATC in busy controlled airspace, but with thousands as many moving vehicles; pedestrians, and wildlife to consider; and with separation measured in inches. And even if you managed to work all that stuff out, you'd still have to worry about hardware failures, telemetry failures, bugs, glitches, and malicious attacks.

Rich
 
While it is cool to watch my Tesla Model 3, on it's own, back out of a parking stall and make it's way to me in an empty parking lot.... I gotta say that it's very scary to watch your very expensive possession do so in a semi-crowded or active parking lot try to navigate the obstacles.

More than once I've stopped the process because "The Flash" was about to do something that, from where I was standing, would cause damage.

The feature is in the beta stage, and rightly so. It does work, but in no way is it perfected yet.


The Autopilot features do work well. But like an AP in your airplane, isn't something that can go unmonitored. But I do like it for longer drives when traffic is sparse and all that is needed is cruising within the same lane.
 
"Self driving" is too broad of a category. SAE has established levels of autonomous vehicles for this reason. it's really helpful to understand the levels. The hardware being utilized is important as well, i.e. Cameras, lidar or both? For instance, a car equipped with only cameras operating as a level 2 is not even close to a vehicle equipped with cameras and lidar operating as a level 4. Both are "self driving". Then there are differences in software...
 
AggieMike88 said:
While it is cool to watch my Tesla Model 3, on it's own, back out of a parking stall and make it's way to me in an empty parking lot.... I gotta say that it's very scary to watch your very expensive possession do so in a semi-crowded or active parking lot try to navigate the obstacles.

More than once I've stopped the process because "The Flash" was about to do something that, from where I was standing, would cause damage.

The feature is in the beta stage, and rightly so. It does work, but in no way is it perfected yet.


The Autopilot features do work well. But like an AP in your airplane, isn't something that can go unmonitored. But I do like it for longer drives when traffic is sparse and all that is needed is cruising within the same lane.
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My wife's Volvo has "Pilot Assist" and "Parking Assist". I don't really trust either of them. "Pilot Assist" is ok for a few seconds at a time if you're trying to futz with the navigation or open a drink while cruising on the freeway. Parking Assist, I have yet to successfully use at all.

I think we still have a ways to go before "Johny Cab" becomes a reality.
 
NoBShere said:
"Self driving" is too broad of a category. SAE has established levels of autonomous vehicles for this reason. it's really helpful to understand the levels. The hardware being utilized is important as well, i.e. Cameras, lidar or both? For instance, a car equipped with only cameras operating as a level 2 is not even close to a vehicle equipped with cameras and lidar operating as a level 4. Both are "self driving". Then there are differences in software...
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Can you explain the Levels (2 and 4). Do you mean SIL2 and SIL4. Or are these levels unique to automotive?
 
AggieMike88 said:
While it is cool to watch my Tesla Model 3, on it's own, back out of a parking stall and make it's way to me in an empty parking lot.... I gotta say that it's very scary to watch your very expensive possession do so in a semi-crowded or active parking lot try to navigate the obstacles.

More than once I've stopped the process because "The Flash" was about to do something that, from where I was standing, would cause damage.

The feature is in the beta stage, and rightly so. It does work, but in no way is it perfected yet.


The Autopilot features do work well. But like an AP in your airplane, isn't something that can go unmonitored. But I do like it for longer drives when traffic is sparse and all that is needed is cruising within the same lane.
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I'd be more excited with a car that can drop me off downtown for an appointment and go off and find it's own parking spot.
 
wilkersk said:
My wife's Volvo has "Pilot Assist" and "Parking Assist". I don't really trust either of them. "Pilot Assist" is ok for a few seconds at a time if you're trying to futz with the navigation or open a drink while cruising on the freeway.
.
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My pilot assist in those situations is drive by knee. I use it frequently, no extra cost added.
 
1RTK1 said:
My pilot assist in those situations is drive by knee. I use it frequently, no extra cost added.
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Wife's too short to use her knee. Besides, keeping her in a "nice" car that SHE likes helps keep me in aviation. ;-)
 
Apologies for reviving an old thread.

Since I don't currently have a car and the bus drivers are on strike, a friend who lives near here offered to take me to my medical clinic recently. Our schedules didn't mesh for the ride home, so I called Lyft for that. The driver was using his Tesla in self-driving mode, and watching it in the Lyft app trying to find the clinic was pretty entertaining. It was wandering all over the neighborhoods on both sides of the street where the clinic is located, and he told me that he finally had to take over to get to the pickup point. I don't know why he didn't take over sooner, because the Lyft app never has this problem, at least with that location.
 
Palmpilot said:
Apologies for reviving an old thread.

Since I don't currently have a car and the bus drivers are on strike, a friend who lives near here offered to take me to my medical clinic recently. Our schedules didn't mesh for the ride home, so I called Lyft for that. The driver was using his Tesla in self-driving mode, and watching it in the Lyft app trying to find the clinic was pretty entertaining. It was wandering all over the neighborhoods on both sides of the street where the clinic is located, and he told me that he finally had to take over to get to the pickup point. I don't know why he didn't take over sooner, because the Lyft app never has this problem, at least with that location.
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The most hilarious example is a recent video where some YouTubers put a picture of a road on the road, Wile E. Coyote style, and the Tesla drive straight through it :rofl:
Screenshot_20250324-102057.png
 
Musk believed he could do everything optically, to the point of even disabling the ranging sensors on the cars that had the hardware. This has resulted in the cars driving in to all kinds of things it didn't recognize as obstacles. The fundamental truth is, if there is something solid in front of you... it's an obstacle and you shouldn't hit it.
 
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As long as you revived it...

I rented a Tesla last weekend for the experience. It was a 2018 model so I don't know what advances have been made since then. On the self-driving end, there were things I really liked and those which didn't impress me.

Really liked "basic" cruise control - speed only - is enhanced. It travels along at the lesser of the speed you select and the speed of the car in front of you. Travel along the highway at 70 and come up on a car going 60, the Tesla slows down by itself. Change lanes to pass and it speeds back up. It was that one extra step that made things easy.

Not impressed with "full" self drive. Some positives. That slow down? In the one I drove, all I had to do was use the turn to tell the Tesla I wanted to pass that slower car and it did. I understand in later models, you don't even need to prompt it with the turn signal. But I did like the full autodrive experience. For obvious reasons Tesla wants your hands on the steering wheel. Have your hands off for any length of time and it will tell you to put them on. If my hands need to be on the wheel anyway, I found it less work just steer myself than to monitor what the car was doing.

Your experience with wandering? That's less about self-driving technology than navigation technology. It's been a while since I've used a car's own navigation system, but my prior experience is that most in-car nav systems are idiots. I found the Tesla's a little better than the last one I used, but hardly as good as Google Maps or Waze
 
midlifeflyer said:
Really liked "basic" cruise control - speed only - is enhanced. It travels along at the lesser of the speed you select and the speed of the car in front of you. Travel along the highway at 70 and come up on a car going 60, the Tesla slows down by itself. Change lanes to pass and it speeds back up. It was that one extra step that made things easy.
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Pretty much available on every car on the market these days. My 2020 RAM pickup and Margy's 2024 Toyota RAV4 both have it. Had it on a rental Sprinter van in Australia back in early 2020 as well.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
…Really liked "basic" cruise control - speed only - is enhanced. It travels along at the lesser of the speed you select and the speed of the car in front of you. Travel along the highway at 70 and come up on a car going 60, the Tesla slows down by itself. Change lanes to pass and it speeds back up. It was that one extra step that made things easy.
…
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I had that tech in my 2017 F150 and it’s in my wife’s Lexus and my current truck. Ford calls their version Adaptive Cruise Control and yes, it’s a great enhancement.

Some motorcycles have been equipped with the same tech for a few years now, too.
 
flyingron said:
Pretty much available on every car on the market these days. My RAM pickup and Margy's Toyota RAV4 both have it.
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Thanks. Part of me figured that was just a general cruise control update, but since my car is 10 model years old...
 
The 2025 F150 I just ordered is supposed to have self driving capabilities although it is only on major highways and thorough fares.
 
I have yet to experience full self driving in a vehicle, but I do enjoy having adaptive cruise control. I find it reduces my aggravation factor when I catch up to a slower vehicle, especially in the passing lane. The only problem I've had is if you aren't paying attention, you could wind up doing 55 mph on the interstate following a slow driver without even noticing it.
 
My EQS does a decent job. It steers, it slows in curves, it holds distance from the car in front, it lets me send text messages with full thought instead of previous half thought :D It also just takes a flick of the turn signal and it'll negotiate a lane change. I think it's similar to the recent Tesla system.

It actually has a camera that watches ME and yells at me if I look away too long.

It's a definitely energy saver for long trips -- why we bought the thing. Sadly the next newer model year claims to be "Level 3" and I don't understand the differences between that and mine, other than the newer one only works on select highways and mine is camera based and works anywhere so far.

I like the new tech. I don't like the accompanying nannying, but.. well.. I guess I'm part of the reason for it since I get bored starting straight ahead at a road while someone else drives :)
 
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midwestpa24 said:
I have yet to experience full self driving in a vehicle, but I do enjoy having adaptive cruise control. I find it reduces my aggravation factor when I catch up to a slower vehicle, especially in the passing lane. The only problem I've had is if you aren't paying attention, you could wind up doing 55 mph on the interstate following a slow driver without even noticing it.
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And that is exactly why I don’t use adaptive except on 2 lane roads.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I have yet to experience full self driving in a vehicle, but I do enjoy having adaptive cruise control. I find it reduces my aggravation factor when I catch up to a slower vehicle, especially in the passing lane. The only problem I've had is if you aren't paying attention, you could wind up doing 55 mph on the interstate following a slow driver without even noticing it.
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My Nissan has what they term as Intelligent cruise and it monitors and blends with traffic in front. As you noted sometimes the slowdown is so gradual that you find yourself poking along unawares. Mine also has standard cruise. I prefer that and use it more often than Intelligent cruise.

As to self driving cars ... perhaps I'm just an old hick but if I gotta go along for the ride, give me the wheel and let me drive. As far as the car being parked when I get dropped off ... my wife's car does that for me when she's driving it. That means I have a driver, a companion, and someone to have lunch with after my appointment. Yes, that also means that somedays I have to deal with more than the car breaking down but mostly both are very reliable. ;)

If you don't have a self driving car you should have a "little helper in the car" ...

 
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Baked Potato said:
The most hilarious example is a recent video where some YouTubers put a picture of a road on the road, Wile E. Coyote style, and the Tesla drive straight through it :rofl:
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Rober's test was setup to make the Tesla fail.

His test car did not have FSD. It did not have the latest FSD hardware (AI4). It did not have the latest FSD software.

On one test he didn't have autopilot engaged. He drove down the centerline stripe on the road which autopilot will not do.

On the Roadrunner wall test, he didn't engage autopilot until three seconds before the wall and it disconnected almost immediately.

Others have recreated the Roadrunner wall test with FSD, and with FSD engaged, and the car stopped.

midlifeflyer said:
. For obvious reasons Tesla wants your hands on the steering wheel. Have your hands off for any length of time and it will tell you to put them on. If my hands need to be on the wheel anyway, I found it less work just steer myself than to monitor what the car was doing.
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FSD no longer requires you to keep a hand on the wheel. It tracks your eye movements to verify that you are paying attention. If you're not, it gives several warning then will eventually disengage and lock-out FSD for the remainder of the drive. Too many lock-outs and FSD is disabled for a number of days.
 
Ed Haywood said:
The Wile E. Coyote test concerns me greatly. I can't count the number of times I have encountered a painted screen across the road.
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It's really dangerous when someone paints a picture of a tunnel and you suddenly get hit by a truck coming the other way.

Years ago when I was working for the Army, I was asked to review a patent on "invisibility" where essentially the concept was put a big screen up and a camera on the far side of the object you wanted to hide and display the view without the object. I thought it was rather silly at the time, but I guess if we decide to roll out Teslas on the battlefield, it might have some promise.
 
I have no doubt that within the next 10 years, FSD will be standard. What I wonder, is if DOT will mandate their use. Even if the system isn’t perfect, if you can save roughly 40,000 vehicle collision deaths a year, that’ll be hard to pass up.

I’ve used FSD in the Model X. Definitely not perfect. Phantom braking and it tried to turn me off on the wrong exit. But I’m old school as well. I like the experience of driving. I look at FSD like using a GLP1 for weight loss. They have their benefits but doing it yourself can be far more rewarding.
 
I can't wait for NASCAR to go to fully self driving cars. No wrecks, no passing, cars finish in the same position they start in, no physical discussions and average speeds approaching 37mph....

Oh, and almost forgot, electric cars.... listen to those engines hum...
 
Back when I was a NASCAR official at the Old Dominion Speedway, one of the high school SAE clubs built a bunch of electric cars for a race at our track. One team even put one of our regular drivers in it to try to gain an edge. It was very eerie watching these cars move fast around the track without making any noise.
 
Velocity173 said:
I have no doubt that within the next 10 years, FSD will be standard. What I wonder, is if DOT will mandate their use. Even if the system isn’t perfect, if you can save roughly 40,000 vehicle collision deaths a year, that’ll be hard to pass up.
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Could pretty much end DUI deaths.
 
flyingron said:
It's really dangerous when someone paints a picture of a tunnel and you suddenly get hit by a truck coming the other way.

Years ago when I was working for the Army, I was asked to review a patent on "invisibility" where essentially the concept was put a big screen up and a camera on the far side of the object you wanted to hide and display the view without the object. I thought it was rather silly at the time, but I guess if we decide to roll out Teslas on the battlefield, it might have some promise.
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There are several of these buildings in Seoul. They are basically invisible until it switches to an ad.
 
Larry in TN said:
FSD no longer requires you to keep a hand on the wheel. It tracks your eye movements to verify that you are paying attention. If you're not, it gives several warning then will eventually disengage and lock-out FSD for the remainder of the drive. Too many lock-outs and FSD is disabled for a number of days.
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I'm definitely behind the times on this subject.

While I'm in learning phase, when someone talks about a 300 mile battery, what do they mean? I know that the 300 is an estimate and that power use depends on driving conditions. What I'm asking is is that 300 based on a battery going from 100% to 0% or is it based on what I think is a norm of 80% max to 20% min.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
I'm definitely behind the times on this subject.

While I'm in learning phase, when someone talks about a 300 mile battery, what do they mean? I know that the 300 is an estimate and that power use depends on driving conditions. What I'm asking is is that 300 based on a battery going from 100% to 0% or is it based on what I think is a norm of 80% max to 20% min.
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If you are talking about driving in mountains, extremely cold weather, towing etc. you are never going to get there average milage stated. The Ford lightning when towing minor loads drops WELL over half according to all the reports I have read.
 
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