Caution - Religious discussion, click here only if you can handle this topic.

Serious question: is there a CHT (alone) below the 500 degree limit for my Lycoming O-360 which will cause it to have detonation on 100LL, even at the riskiest mixture?

Maybe I missed part of the discussion? CHT doesn’t cause detonation. It might lead to pre-ignition if there are hotspots in the combustion chamber (another discussion). But running the engine in such a way that gets the cylinders hot is what can either cause detonation or be indicative of it.

Think of advancing the ignition- what would that do to combustion chamber pressures and combustion temperatures? Hence you get a resultant cylinder head temperature rise.

Maybe that helps, maybe it convolutes.
 
Maybe I missed part of the discussion? CHT doesn’t cause detonation.
As a non-engineer, not-very-smart kinda guy, I was surprised by the statement, at least for CHTs below the max for our engines but I’m honestly trying to learn something here and not pizz people off, so I thought I’d let the statement hang out there for someone else to comment on it.
 
I would submit that it is not too helpful for us pilots to think of high CHT as a primary cause of detonation.

Let's review what detonation is: it's when pockets of unburned fuel/air mixture auto-ignite after the spark plug has already started normal combustion, which greatly accelerates the creation of pressure and heat. This leads to elevated CHTs. From that perspective, it is intuitive that high CHTs are a result of detonation, not the other way around. And in fact, one of the reasons CHT indication on an engine monitor is so useful is that if detonation were to occur, we could see that on the engine monitor through a high CHT.

So then... what causes detonation? A number of things can do that, for example poor fuel quality (without sufficient octane to provide detonation margin). High induction air temperature. Too much pressure inside the cylinder (e.g. advanced ignition timing, or running a turbo'ed engine with too much manifold pressure). In this context, high CHTs can contribute to detonation by increasing the temperature of the fuel/air mixture, and thus having a similar effect as high induction air temperature. But from what I have been told, that is not typically how detonation starts in our aircraft engines. It's more like this: once detonation starts for other reasons and leads to high CHTs, the higher CHTs then help sustain or grow detonation. (Yes, detonation can be minor, or severe, or anywhere in between - depending on when auto-ignition starts and how much of the unburned fuel-air mixture in the cylinder is affected).

So in a way you are all correct... But in terms of what a pilot should do to prevent detonation, keeping CHTs under x degrees is not very useful advice.

Regards,
Martin
 
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I would submit that it is not too helpful for us pilots to think of detonation as a primary cause of detonation.
Did you mean “…to think of CHT as a primary cause of detonation”? If not, could you clarify the sentence?

Thanks for a good reply. It aligns with what I understand of the physics.
 
I find all of this comical, especially Lycoming's responses. The Lycoming 540 Operators Manual power chart shows best economy as LOP. So anyone from Lycoming saying LOP is not recommended is ridiculous.
 
Did you mean “…to think of CHT as a primary cause of detonation”? If not, could you clarify the sentence?

Thanks for a good reply. It aligns with what I understand of the physics.
Yes - thank you for the correction. I clearly had a brain stall there...
I just corrected it in the thread above.
 
I find all of this comical, especially Lycoming's responses. The Lycoming 540 Operators Manual power chart shows best economy as LOP. So anyone from Lycoming saying LOP is not recommended is ridiculous.
Pondering this all, I think there’s LOP and then there’s LOP.

Yeah, Best Economy is where the mixture is leaned past peak - and is a safe place to be when other conditions are met, particularly lower %HP (which, by the way, is where the red box/red fin gets smaller).

The LOP most people are referring to is where it’s leaned considerably further and CHTs start to drop - because ICP has dropped because the mixture is less favorable to combustion and, incidentally, detonation.

I think Lycoming’s position on the issue as in the article I shared above is logical: yes, for an engine with well-balanced fuel-air mixtures between cylinders, it’s possible to safely run there. But should an injector get clogged and cause the other cylinders to suddenly be enriched or the engine is enriched for a climb without planning, detonation margin is considerably reduced (and the red box just grew quickly in size). For my carbureted engine it’s very likely some cylinders will still be on the rich side while others are lean, so the risk is higher.

Again, I personally think running LOP has its place and I’d probably do it if I had a fuel injected engine with matched injectors. But there’s risk with that, just as there’s risk having a turbo. One should understand the physics of their setup and manage their engine accordingly.

Which is why I really want to understand CHT in my situation and not limit the relatively low power I already have even further by constraining my engine unnecessarily. Many of the “don’t go there” comments about CHT in this and other threads appear to be derived from research done in support of matched fuel injectors and the LOP topic (and heavily on the Continental side) - which, again, is not as relevant for me. Not all, but many.
 
High induction air temperature.

I’m going to add an “it depends”. At low air temperatures, the fuel mixtures get leaner relative to air. So while hotter engine is a variable that is more conducive to detonation, when the air gets cooler the mixture needs to get richer (all else being equal). If altitude increases, then you are also getting richer. Maybe DA is the better way to think of it.

Have we talked about the blue knob? Engine load is a very strong contributor to detonation tendency. If you push the throttle open without pushing the prop forward/fine, that puts a larger load on the engine. Have you ever tried to accelerate a car in a higher gear and heard the marbles? That’s detonation. Downshift and the load on the engine goes down (leverage increases).

Have we talked about RPM? Counter-intuitively at first, low RPM is more conducive to detonation if you make a power increase request of it.

If you run low RPM, run near peak (either side of it, but worse likely just rich of it), don’t touch the blue knob, and then open the throttle wider, then detonation is more probable.
 
One thing he says is that aluminum is half-strength around 400F. So if you do get detonation, it stands to reason that you’ll do more damage if the detonation happens inside a 460F cylinder versus one that’s only 360F.
I keep hearing that idea (and am not disagreeing). It reminds me that a rope loses 30-50% of its strength when it’s knotted. We accommodate that by using a bigger rope rather than not tying a knot.

Similarly, I’m quite sure that metallurgic fact has been long known to cylinder manufacturers and is incorporated into their design and the temperature limits they set.
 
The LOP most people are referring to is where it’s leaned considerably further and CHTs start to drop - because ICP has dropped because the mixture is less favorable to combustion and, incidentally, detonation.
Correct.

I think Lycoming’s position on the issue as in the article I shared above is logical: yes, for an engine with well-balanced fuel-air mixtures between cylinders, it’s possible to safely run there. But should an injector get clogged and cause the other cylinders to suddenly be enriched or the engine is enriched for a climb without planning, detonation margin is considerably reduced
I understand what you (or Lycoming) are saying, though personally I am more concerned about a clogged injector when ROP than when flying LOP. When flying LOP, a partially clogged injector likely leads to that cylinder no longer making power, and the engine will tell me that by running rough - that's my wake-up call to do something. On the other hand, if I fly ROP and one injector suddenly gets partially clogged, it can likely lean that one cylinder squarely into the red box, with no engine roughness whatsoever. My only indication in the cockpit is a change of EGT (immediately higher for that cylinder) and CHT (gradually getting higher and higher as that cylinder gets HOT).

- Martin
 
But in terms of what a pilot should do to prevent detonation, keeping CHTs under x degrees is not very useful advice.
I think it's useful for the simple reasons that CHT is a gauge we have in the cockpit and detonation will likely cause it to rise. You should keep the CHT in a healthy range to protect your cylinders. You will have an easier time achieving that goal if you prevent detonation within the cylinder. To the extent increased CHT can contribute to causing detonation, you're better off avoiding them both than trying to blame the egg for the chicken.

Similarly, I’m quite sure that metallurgic fact has been long known to cylinder manufacturers and is incorporated into their design and the temperature limits they set.
Cylinder manufacturers definitely consider metallurgy when they write the operating manual. But they also consider MTBO. I'd be curious in seeing data on actual time between failures and/or precautionary cylinder replacements based on running 10, 20, or even 100 degrees lower than the maximum continuous numbers that Lycoming and Continental tell us. In other words, just like we have tons of other tradeoffs in flight (Vx versus Vy, LOP versus ROP, economy cruise versus maximum rental power), is there a sweet spot for cylinder longevity beyond TBO where a lower CHT actually does reduce lifespan?
 
is there a sweet spot for cylinder longevity beyond TBO where a lower CHT actually does reduce lifespan?

That’s a REALLY good question. Cylinders are bored and honed to specific clearances for the pistons. Those clearances change based on temperature because of expansion of each. The specified clearances are based on some assumed temperature. Get outside that temp and stuff that’s not supposed to happen happens.
 
I think it's useful for the simple reasons that CHT is a gauge we have in the cockpit and detonation will likely cause it to rise. You should keep the CHT in a healthy range to protect your cylinders.
To be clear - yes, you should absolutely monitor CHTs and make sure they are in a healthy range if you want your engine to have a long, happy life. High CHTs require recognition and action.

My point was merely that in our typical aircraft engines, high CHT is a symptom (or indication), not a cause of something bad happening - other than the normal wear and tear under otherwise normal operating conditions, where hot metal means weak metal.

Regards,
Martin
 
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is there a sweet spot for cylinder longevity beyond TBO where a lower CHT actually does reduce lifespan?
Very good question. It would be interesting to know the distribution of reasons for replacing cylinders: valve issues caused by effectively running too rich? Rust from lack of use and/or short flights/ground runs? Detonation from (excessive ICP as indicated by) high CHTs?

High CHTs may well be the leading cause of cylinder death but I’m not sure I’m seeing info to support that. If the “red box” is really mainly about detonation risk and detonation risk is negligible at any mixture or power setting in my O-360, but running rich cruds up the valves and guides among other things, what’s the least-worst way to run my engine at an IAS in the triple digits based on facts and not tradition?
 
How do piston parachute operations manage their engines - EGT, CHT, ROP/LOP, FF, prop, RPM? How many hours between cylinder changes? Do the bottom ends make it to TBO?
 
The specified clearances are based on some assumed temperature. Get outside that temp and stuff that’s not supposed to happen happens.
Exactly. Which is why I’m trying to discern why people say the manufacturer’s guidance (not limit) of 435 degrees for high performance operations is bad, given what you point out.
 
is there a sweet spot for cylinder longevity beyond TBO where a lower CHT actually does reduce lifespan?
One data point on that: I have been told (from somebody I trust) that when Continental thought about a water-cooled version of their IO-550 engine, they had set the target CHT at somewhere around 240 to 250 degrees F. That suggests to me that a CHT of 250 deg F is warm enough to keep my cylinders happy on my air-cooled IO-550.
 
is there a sweet spot for cylinder longevity beyond TBO where a lower CHT actually does reduce lifespan?
While I'm not a fan of LOP, in my experience the key to engine longetivity is operational consistancy and/or regular use. For example, I've seen engines develop new problems simply because the new owner operated the engine differently than the previous owner.
 
@Llewtrah381

Looks like I owe you an apology. When I wrote post #94 I was convinced that your perspective was inextricably mired in a negative opinion of Mike Busch (e.g. blowhard, salesman) and you therefore had no interest in a good faith examination of the topic. But I was wrong: since that post, you've been actively seeking a better understanding of engine operation, the significance of the red box vs. CHT, etc. Mea culpa.

Disclaimer: I am not a scientist, and what I can now recall of chemistry is scant and dubious. The information presented below is may be partly or complete baloney. If so, I trust that someone will set me straight.​

When I wrote that a "deep dive into the hidden mysteries of the combustion process in a piston engine" is a "journey that your background has prepared you to undertake," I was not being sarcastic--I was referring to your education in chemistry. I think that the real answers to your questions are rooted in the combustion process itself. Please consider the following: normal combustion within the cylinder takes place as deflagration, a radical chain reaction driven by chain-branching reactions that results in progressive combustion within a relatively uniform flame front that advances from the point of ignition. At the boundary between the flame front and the unburned mixture is the end gas, which is being compressed and heated adiabatically by the expanding flame front as well as piston stroke, and also being radiantly heated by surfaces forming the combustion chamber. If the temperature of the end gas increases to certain point the chemistry transitions into high-temperature chain branching, which exhibits high activation energy but produces two radicals from one, causing explosive radical population growth. This is the moment of autoignition, in which the end-gas explodes all at once rather than burning progressively. This detonation event typically occurs in localized areas within the end gas, and when severe it can disrupt the cooler boundary layer gas that insulates the metal surfaces of the piston and cylinder head, causing a rapid rise in piston temp and CHT.

When ROP, the combustion process is liquid-cooled--that is, excess fuel absorbs heat and, in sufficient quantity, prevents the temperature of the end gas from reaching a point at which detonation can occur. As we lean the mixture toward stochiometric, there is less excess fuel to keep the end gas cool, while the ICP increases and peak ICP moves toward TDC. At some point as we approach a stochiometric mixture, there is insufficient excess fuel to cool the end gas enough to prevent detonation (at least, at higher power settings). In addition, Peak ICP moves into a range in which the angular relationship between the wrist pin and crankpin does not allow efficient conversion of heat energy to mechanical energy. CHT and piston temperatures increase, which compounds the condition and may result in thermal runaway. If a part such as a spark plug electrode becomes hot enough, pre-ignition can occur.

Once the mixture is leaner than stochiometric, the combustion process becomes air-cooled. Air (Oxygen) not consumed by combustion absorbs heat and reduces the temperature of the end gas. At this point, the leaner the mixture, the cooler the end gas temperature. CHTs will decrease up to the point at which silence ensues and room temperature is reached. One obvious advantage here is that we are not using excess fuel to cool the combustion process and then dumping it, unburned, out through the exhaust.

The red box (fin) represents a range of fuel/air mixtures in which there is neither excess fuel, nor excess Oxygen, to cool the end gas enough to prevent detonation. Thus detonation is not so much about the specific engine design, but the chemistry of the combustion process itself.

As for CHT limits, I believe that the heads of your O-360 (and many cylinders manufactured by Lycoming, TCM, and Franklin) are cast of A242.0 alloy. As a representative example, below is a graphical depiction the approximate relationship between heat and tensile strength for A242.0, taken from data contained in ASM's Introduction to Aluminum Alloys and Tempers. Note that the A242 alloy here is tempered per T571 standard--I don't know what the actual temper of the alloy used by Lycoming is.

1785872156743.png

@Llewtrah381, I appreciate your genuine interest in this topic and your perseverance in seeking answers to your questions. It has morphed into an interesting thread, with a lot of good information supplied by several members.

As a last reminder, I'm just SGOTI and the preceding is intended for amusement purposes only.
 
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One data point on that: I have been told (from somebody I trust) that when Continental thought about a water-cooled version of their IO-550 engine, they had set the target CHT at somewhere around 240 to 250 degrees F. That suggests to me that a CHT of 250 deg F is warm enough to keep my cylinders happy on my air-cooled IO-550.
I don’t think it should.

Bore profiles and clearances are very different between air and water cooled engines.

To the best of my understanding.
 
My understanding on CHT being "too cool" is that lead bromide deposits are more likely to form on valves, piston crowns and valve guides. None of those are good for engines. No idea at what temp that becomes an issue, assuming I'm remembering correctly.
 
I was convinced that your perspective was inextricably mired in a negative opinion of Mike Busch
A totally fair assumption, especially given the way I presented my opinions.
Looks like I owe you an apology.
Appreciated but meh, the story of my life has been to tick people off, so I'm used to having that effect on others (and, understandably, typically don't get apologies - so thanks for being the outlier) ;)

Thanks for the discussion points as well!
 
Cylinder manufacturers definitely consider metallurgy when they write the operating manual. But they also consider MTBO. I'd be curious in seeing data on actual time between failures and/or precautionary cylinder replacements based on running 10, 20, or even 100 degrees lower than the maximum continuous numbers that Lycoming and Continental tell us. In other words, just like we have tons of other tradeoffs in flight (Vx versus Vy, LOP versus ROP, economy cruise versus maximum rental power), is there a sweet spot for cylinder longevity beyond TBO where a lower CHT actually does reduce lifespan?

I have asked this previously of a few engineers whom at least seem knowledgeable. :D
Short version, the ideal temp for most engine alloys would be much lower than we use. Typical temps you see in cars now, e.g. around 100-200F. However, in current avgas we have TEL. Which creates some nasty byproducts. The higher the temp, the less nasty the byproducts are (to a point). So we have conflicting demands right now. This is one reason among many, that a number of people (like me) are looking forward to unleaded avgas (in theory, depends on the trade offs, e.g. new paint every five years sort of defeats the purpose).


BWTHDIK

Tim
 
My understanding on CHT being "too cool" is that lead bromide deposits are more likely to form on valves, piston crowns and valve guides. None of those are good for engines. No idea at what temp that becomes an issue, assuming I'm remembering correctly.

Nice article from Shell on this subject

 
Since this is really a religious discussion, per the thread title… I’ve heard about the “Church of Lean of Peak” many years ago. Just had a little fun with ChatGPT:

View attachment 154024
Nice, Martin. It reminds me of J.R. "Bob" Dobbs and his Church of the SubGenius. Or maybe L. Ron, who is best remembered for his sagacious proclaimation, "You don't get rich by monkeying around with the mixture controls. If you want to get rich, you start a religion." Yea verily amen.
 
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Let's review what detonation is: it's when pockets of unburned fuel/air mixture auto-ignite after the spark plug has already started normal combustion, which greatly accelerates the creation of pressure and heat. This leads to elevated CHTs. From that perspective, it is intuitive that high CHTs are a result of detonation, not the other way around. And in fact, one of the reasons CHT indication on an engine monitor is so useful is that if detonation were to occur, we could see that on the engine monitor through a high CHT.
It would be nice if we had a newer generation of engine monitors that could do some trend monitoring and pay attention to OAT, airspeed, etc and tell us "Hey, this cylinder is starting to show temps that aren't normal based on the cooling airflow present" in real time, rather than relying on post-flight monitoring.

Pondering this all, I think there’s LOP and then there’s LOP.

Yeah, Best Economy is where the mixture is leaned past peak - and is a safe place to be when other conditions are met, particularly lower %HP (which, by the way, is where the red box/red fin gets smaller).

The LOP most people are referring to is where it’s leaned considerably further and CHTs start to drop - because ICP has dropped because the mixture is less favorable to combustion and, incidentally, detonation.
Uh, no. Generally, you can't get WAY LOP without losing a lot of power or running rough as the leanest cylinders start to get close to a mixture that's too lean to burn quickly.

FWIW, I stop moving the mixture control when the richest cylinder hits 10ºF LOP, and it usually settles in at about 25-30ºF LOP, with the leanest cylinder around 50ºF LOP. If I let it get too much leaner than that, there's a noticeable loss of airspeed. When I'm higher, say 12-15,000 feet, I'll lean until only half the cylinders are LOP and the others are still ROP (so, averaging at peak). Above 15,000, I'll run ROP at best power (100-125ºF ROP) to make up for the lost power in the thin air.
 
Since this is really a religious discussion, per the thread title… I’ve heard about the “Church of Lean of Peak” many years ago. Just had a little fun with ChatGPT:

View attachment 154024

Martin, this is truly excellent. My only slight recommendation, suggested in all humility, is that the priest should have a long white beard and glasses. Something like this:

1786119732303.png

:biggrin:
 
One data point on that: I have been told (from somebody I trust) that when Continental thought about a water-cooled version of their IO-550 engine, they had set the target CHT at somewhere around 240 to 250 degrees F. That suggests to me that a CHT of 250 deg F is warm enough to keep my cylinders happy on my air-cooled IO-550.

My IO360's highest CHT's are always in the 250-300 degrees F in winter while cruising LOP, with OAT's below freezing. The colder it gets, the lower they go.

During winter in order to get obtain a little more lukewarm heat in the cabin I set the mixture a little less LOP (closer to peak), gain a couple of knots TAS and burn another .3 or .4 gals/hr.

When the engine was last overhauled at nearly 700 hours past TBO the overhaul shop remarked the engine was "clean as a whistle". I could only imagine and hope if there were any lead bromide deposits discovered they would have been clearly visible and reported.

Regardless of all the opinions and experiences discussed here on what's good or bad for adjusting the mixture on normally aspirated tuned injector and engine monitor equipped IO-360's, I'll continue to cruise LOP until there's a quantifiable reason not to.
 
I’ve never had the opportunity to fly at sea level. Not in 26 years with the Cherokee. Like I said…my ground is higher than Lycoming’s 5000 ft definition of high altitude. First thing newbies learn out here is how to lean.
And after 26 years of flying, I know my O360 A4A prefers cruising at 2400 rpm and leaned to about 365-385 temps on the JPI 730 engine monitor.

Engine just feels more smooth.
MVI Field elevation 7900' DA 10k+ by 08:00 what now? I lean at startup, and lean more while climbing.
What exactly is the beef with running LOP? Lower fuel burn, and lower temps. Or ROP higher fuel burn, and lower temps.
The most efficient would be to run right at peak, Higher temps, but perfect mixture, . What is known as Stochiometric (sp) mixture where every bit of fuel, and oxygen is consumed.
 
I’ve never had the opportunity to fly at sea level. Not in 26 years with the Cherokee.
I started flying at a field that was 1,900ft. Not high, but not sea level either. Probably four years later I found myself in NYC and flew for decades out of an airport at 79ft... and I ended up buying a turbo! :D
 
I’m REALLY trying to get my head around what does and doesn’t hurt my N/A, carbureted O-360 and,...

I’d really like to see what the “red box”/“red fin” looks like for the O-360 - based on hard data and not extrapolation. Especially given the comments by others about the very low risk of detonation in those, I’m suspecting it’s small or possibly insignificant. But I’d like that to be based on reality and not my guess. Given that all the work we’ve been discussing was done in support of the GAMI product, I’m not sure it’s out there. Then again, maybe it is, in association with the 100LL alternatives.

Well, maybe it is, at least tangentially,.....

So I was sitting in church yesterday and my mind wandered onto this topic and the Church of LOP. IIRC, our pastor's text was from the third chapter of First Lycomings, but I may not have been paying close attention and could be mistaken. I was really hoping he would tell us something about O-360s and IO-360s, like maybe an 11th Commandment that starts "Thou shalt not lean when..." but, alas, he seemed to have some other point on his mind.

In any event, my mind drifted over to the valve recession issues with unleaded fuel at the University of North Dakota (isn't that where Professor Schickele used to teach?). UND was flying Archers and Seminoles, which use O-360s in older models and IO-360s in newer ones, and their standard practice was to lean to peak EGT in cruise. The engines had been flown on 100LL prior to the UL94 trial, so the engines were flown at peak EGT with both 100 octane fuel and 94 octane fuel. We note that UL94 has less detonation margin than 100LL due to lower octane.

The problem reported with these UND 360s was valve seat recession, and all the articles and discussions and Lycoming responses have revolved around that. I haven't head of any evidence of detonation with these engines, saving the pure speculation that there might possibly have been mild detonation that may have contributed to the possibility that micro welds might have occurred which maybe caused the valve seat recession. Maybe. If there were any clear evidence of detonation I'm certain we would have heard about it.

It would seem to me, then, that we have evidence of a family of Lycoming 360s that were flown for many hours by ham-fisted students, probably at full rental power, leaned to peak EGT, and those engines show no evidence of detonation damage. Certainly not when they were using the higher octane fuel.

Now obviously this wasn't a well-constructed test, but it's what we have, and it appears to indicate that detonation isn't a huge concern with our O-360s, at least not with higher octane fuel.

Thoughts? What sayeth the congregation? Can I get an "amen" from the deacons?
 
If there were any clear evidence of detonation I'm certain we would have heard about it.

It would seem to me, then, that we have evidence of a family of Lycoming 360s that were flown for many hours by ham-fisted students, probably at full rental power, leaned to peak EGT, and those engines show no evidence of detonation damage. Certainly not when they were using the higher octane fuel.

Now obviously this wasn't a well-constructed test, but it's what we have, and it appears to indicate that detonation isn't a huge concern with our O-360s, at least not with higher octane fuel.

Thoughts? What sayeth the congregation? Can I get an "amen" from the deacons?

I'm not at the Deacon level (or even close), but here's my confession:

Before buying into serious LOP ops flying IO-360's with GAMI's I ran well over 2500 hours flying AT PEAK during cruise.... but only leaned to peak once leveling off at 7000' MSL and higher. Climb outs and cruising lower than 7000' were always conducted at various ROP settings.

ROP resulted in issues common to many engines operating ROP, such as:
Cylinder work before reaching the 2000 hours TBO
Oil consumptions that were much higher compared to LOP ops
Valve guide deposits - and in one instance a forced landing due to a loose exhaust valve
Clogged fuel injectors - another forced landing
Fouled massive spark plugs
Dirty oil

I don't believe that running at Peak (at 7000' or higher) is harmful in a normally aspirated IO-360 if you don't mind the potential for unexpected engine maintenance due to deposits associated with flying a dirty engine that's operating ROP, or at Peak...
 
Thoughts? What sayeth the congregation?

I over-slept and missed church.

If the only variable that changed in the UND process was the fuel, and the only out of spec result was valve rescission, then whether it is blamed on detonation or something else doesn’t matter - the root cause is the fuel change. The corrective actions can include operating the red knob differently, different valve seat specs, reformulating a different fuel iteration, etc.

It does matter however in knowing what part of the fuel change caused the issues in order to select the proper corrections.
 
I over-slept and missed church.

If the only variable that changed in the UND process was the fuel, and the only out of spec result was valve rescission, then whether it is blamed on detonation or something else doesn’t matter - the root cause is the fuel change. The corrective actions can include operating the red knob differently, different valve seat specs, reformulating a different fuel iteration, etc.

It does matter however in knowing what part of the fuel change caused the issues in order to select the proper corrections.

For the purpose of this discussion and @Llewtrah381 ‘s question, I’m not interested in curing the valve recession problem nor in the fuel change. I’m merely using ancillary info from that situation to consider whether detonation is a serious concern when leaning Lyc 360s
 
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