C150 hits Helicopter, Carlisle, PA, Fatalities, 8/19/26

I’m copy pasting…
So, how can a helicopter suck? First, to blow well, you must suck. Obviously the helicopter is sucking air from above. You can argue the verb such saying it really is pushing air down below but again, consider a swimmer in a riptide. Is the swimmer sucked or pushed to sea? Yet most all of us say the swimmer is sucked to sea. So on the face of it a helicopter sucks. Further we have recirculation, and this is closer to where our concern lies but not quite there yet. Toward center of disk we have slower rotation on the blade and much less force throwing air down. As a result we don’t increase pressure below the center of disk so much. Hence we tend to get a back current of flow. Similarly, we have rotor vortices like wing vortices thus we also get a bit of recirculation at the tips. Air from below gets sucked up above. Don’t **** out the door of a helicopter. But we’re more looking for the downwash which gets turned into outwash. Here our models lead us astray. We tend to think of this as down and out. Such is readily seen as false though recent research is showing it to be even more false than what we may readily see. For our consideration here, we don’t need to get into the complications exposed by recent research. We can use the simple down and out model and adjust it. If we throw air down, we get a stagnation point below of high pressure where the down met the ground. From here we get the out. The out doesn’t exist independently. It presses into other air. It won’t simply be an out. Much like turbulent flow across out wings, it is going to have back flow. It is going to curl up then back. Picture an upside down mushroom cloud. The new research shows we will also have lots of gusting in this to include opposite direction gusts but for our purposes, the donut is good enough. Near the ground this sounds like a push not a suck, so what gives? Here we need to consider the fixed wing airplane’s aerodynamics. We have a forward velocity to which we have a conservation of momentum. Inertia. And we have stabilities. Directional and longitudinal are our big players here though we should also consider lateral. The plane gets hit by wash from the right. Directional stability abruptly yaw right. The plane has a sudden headwind and updraft. The plane pitches up. The plane is now pointing toward the helicopter while it still has forward velocity. The plane tops the updraft aspect for the outwash curl and now has a momentary tail wind component, pitch drops. Abrupt right yaw with pitch up then forward are all consistent and coherent with encountering wash. Lateral stability, however, suggests a left roll away from the right wind. But directional should be stronger than lateral. And we have a harder time seeing roll in the video for a couple of reasons. The plane already has some bank likely from encountering the left vortex prior to the wash. Such would roll right hence right bank. Next the camera itself. It doesn’t seem to have fisheye or other distortions as the background trees seem consistent, however, our sight line tricks us. We have a little bit of planform view as the plane enters the field of view following the runway. Such is from a bit of right bank. Now we get the sharp yaw right. That same bank but with a more perpendicular heading from the plane gives us much more planform view. Such makes any left roll hard for us to perceive. The helicopter was not three diameters from the runway, wash was definitely over the runway. Yet a statement that the helicopter was well away could lead us to negate this coherence. Meanwhile, yes, a helicopter can readily suck a plane into the rotor system due to the interplay of the plane’s stability dynamics and inertia.

Did the wash do this here? Plausible. Likely. But you could argue the preceding vortex did it and the deal was sealed with that vortex. Such also has coherence and we have past examples of vortices throwing planes around in similar manner. Though such is still a case of helicopter sucking plane into it. And is also a case of helicopter not actually being well away from the runway so as to be in a position to be hit.

Other hypotheses. Botched go around and trim stall. Simply didn’t see the helicopter. Let’s look at the latter first. Didn’t see it so hit it is rubbish. The plane was tracking along the runway until it was in unusual attitude and not in controlled flight. If you’re out of control, seeing and avoiding is irrelevant. The lack of visual could have contributed, however, to Cessna believing he had better spacing or believing there was no wash present. As to botched go around, I’m not buying it. Timing sequence is off as is direction of deviation. The plane already had a flat pitch while along runway as it entered the field of view. This suggests it was already at speed having already powered up while properly managing the nose. It’s flaps were also up suggesting either the approach was no flap or that clean up in go around was already done meaning the time for trim stall and power on stall had already passed. Further the plane went right not left. We generally expect left deviations with inadequate rudder for power. The plane’s rightward was also too aggressive for excessive rudder. Not seeing a botched go around here. Yet the misstatement of the helicopter being well away mistakenly takes us toward botched go around.
 
Involvement is irrelevant to making valid criticism. You also are failing to address the criticism. Such is an appeal to expertise logical fallacy.

OK, other than youtube videos, what is your background in aviation accident investigation?
 
The whole point of NTSB investigations is risk management paid forward.
Except the “paid forward” portion of the NTSB investigative process is handled through the issuance of Safey Recommendations and not through the Final Report or Probable Cause. Which again points to your lack of understanding how the NTSB process works.

Below is yet another video on the subject with talking heads providing absolutely nothing new to the discussion. But “I like to hear myself talk,”
The same could be said for copy-pasting ones own long-winded words across multiple new posts in the same forum thread discussion... :rolleyes:
 
OK, other than youtube videos, what is your background in aviation accident investigation?
I also linked you that Atlantic article regarding The Deadly Myth Human Error Causes Most Car Crashes. Maybe you ought to take that one on.

& @Bell206

With it I also gave the other article mentioning serial monogamy of solutions which is exactly the problem we get when we prefer the NTSB approach.
 
The same could be said for copy-pasting ones own long-winded words across multiple new posts in the same forum thread discussion... :rolleyes:

Long winded means you should have extra opportunity to actually falsify something I have presented.
 
I also linked you that Atlantic article regarding The Deadly Myth Human Error Causes Most Car Crashes. Maybe you ought to take that one on.

& @Bell206

With it I also gave the other article mentioning serial monogamy of solutions which is exactly the problem we get when we prefer the NTSB approach.

Ok, so now you are deflecting. Can’t answer a straight forward question?

Let’s try again: OK, other than youtube videos, what is your background in aviation accident investigation?
 
I feel that the NTSB investigators, especially the spokesman should be replaced. The spokesman was unusually defensive deflecting the questions about the extensive hovering while pushing the C150 crashed into the helicopter. He was an unprofessional ass to the media.

Then I noticed that the governor was at all the press conferences and being unusually involved where the helo 01kw-1pr3-bwza-s2sw.jpgpilots did not die.

Digging a little bit, Gov Shapiro has been questioned on his use of state aircraft (in one year, more flights than his predecessors in 14 years) with no documentation of the other passengers. With that release, it was discovered that he started using these State Police helicopters as his "Marine One" which is exempt from public records requsts. And he used them a lot.

The SP helicopters are equipped with a CVR, where is it?

I'm suspicious of this investigation at this point because I feel that the NTSB is compromised by political pressure.
 
I feel that the NTSB investigators, especially the spokesman should be replaced. The spokesman was unusually defensive deflecting the questions about the extensive hovering while pushing the C150 crashed into the helicopter. He was an unprofessional ass to the media.

Then I noticed that the governor was at all the press conferences and being unusually involved where the helo View attachment 154616pilots did not die.

Digging a little bit, Gov Shapiro has been questioned on his use of state aircraft (in one year, more flights than his predecessors in 14 years) with no documentation of the other passengers. With that release, it was discovered that he started using these State Police helicopters as his "Marine One" which is exempt from public records requsts. And he used them a lot.

The SP helicopters are equipped with a CVR, where is it?

I'm suspicious of this investigation at this point because I feel that the NTSB is compromised by political pressure.

I doubt the NTSB would be concerned about a Governor.
 
The NTSB is an independent agency under the executive branch. The chairman of the NTSB only reports to one person, the President.

With that autonomy it’s hard to see where a state official, a politician or a political party can exert political pressure.
 
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The NTSB is an independent agency under the executive branch. The chairman of the NTSB only reports to one person, the President.

With that autonomy it’s hard to see where a state official, a politician or a political party can’t exert political pressure.
Au contraire, mon frère. I distinctly remember the Hultgreen crash and the politicians pressuring the Navy to blame it on an engine flame-out, not her. While not NTSB, the people are human. So where is the CVR?
 
Au contraire, mon frère. I distinctly remember the Hultgreen crash and the politicians pressuring the Navy to blame it on an engine flame-out, not her. While not NTSB, the people are human. So where is the CVR?

How do you know they don’t have the CVR?

And the Navy is not the NTSB. And Naval accident investigators have a whole chain of people to answer to. Apples to coconuts.
 
And the Navy is not the NTSB. And Naval accident investigators have a whole chain of people to answer to. Apples to coconuts.

This is rubbish. The Navy while having essentially three in parallel separate investigations works very similar to the NTSB. All investigations can have political pressure driving “conclusions.” Especially those that put blame to lower persons so as to protect established systems. Meanwhile we see right here why I gave you the F-35C in the SCS link, as example of confluence not some rubbish root cause singular probable cause. Here’s that link again.


Ok, so now you are deflecting. Can’t answer a straight forward question?

Let’s try again: OK, other than youtube videos, what is your background in aviation accident investigation?

There is no deflection in my answers, only content, thought, analysis, reasoning to which you should be able to falsify or not. Qualifications in the face of such don’t matter one iota. Demanding credentials has nothing to do with the value of the material. Try taking on my thus far coherent hypothesis, maybe increase the support to the other coherent hypothesis, or show how my views rendering other hypotheses incoherent are flawed thus making them at present coherent again. This is how science works, no degree or certificate required for using said approach. Demanding papers, that’s not how we do it.
 
This is rubbish. The Navy while having essentially three in parallel separate investigations works very similar to the NTSB. All investigations can have political pressure driving “conclusions.” Especially those that put blame to lower persons so as to protect established systems. Meanwhile we see right here why I gave you the F-35C in the SCS link, as example of confluence not some rubbish root cause singular probable cause.

Glad to see you've learned a new word and like using it repeatedly. And the only "rubbish" here is your feigning knowledge of aircraft accident investigations.
There is no deflection in my answers, only content, thought, analysis, reasoning to which you should be able to falsify or not.
Only thing you've posted are inane diatribes based upon watching youtube videos.
Qualifications in the face of such don’t matter one iota. Demanding credentials has nothing to do with the value of the material.
Yes, training and actual field experience mean a lot in understanding the fundamentals. Obviously you neither have any formal training and definitely zero experience in aviation accident investigations.
Try taking on my thus far coherent hypothesis, maybe increase the support to the other coherent hypothesis, or show how my views rendering other hypotheses incoherent are flawed thus making them at present coherent again. This is how science works, no degree or certificate required for using said approach. Demanding papers, that’s not how we do it.

"We?" Please define who are "we"?

And no, your diatribes are not "coherent hypothesis".
 
@Doc Holliday

Making and falsifying hypotheses absolutely is how it is done. You may deceive yourself telling yourself you’ll gather all the facts first but the moment you walk in the door you’re making hypotheses. That is simply how the human mind works. Read your Kahneman. And for that matter your Klein. Yes, you can also find them speaking posted on YouTube. That doesn’t make their value any less. The important piece here is in seeking to falsify so as to reduce what remains as possible (coherent). No matter how you tell yourselves you conduct an investigation, this is how you actually do it. The moment you start gathering, you’re creating stories. Formal process strives to reduce this automatic story generation but it never actually stops it. Even were it to work as intended, you still end up in the same place finding stories coherent to the facts you’ve found then seeking to render them incoherent toward a last story standing. If you don’t realize this is how it actually occurs, maybe you don’t have much experience. Or you lack a certain self awareness.
 
Who is reporting that the C150 was sucked into the B407? At least, what aviation “expert” is claiming this?
I am. I’ve shown you the case and the dynamics to it.
Ok, your vid posted earlier didn’t model recirculation. While there is recirc at a hover, it’s negligible to the sides. It can create a FOD hazard. Extremely light debris like a plastic bag can get sucked back in but it’s not going to suck a 1,500 lb aircraft from a runway 70ft away, with prevailing wind from the west. Not to mention, it was level with the disk, not above it.

Recirc is strong near structures, not in open areas.

 
No matter how you tell yourselves you conduct an investigation, this is how you actually do it.

Nope. Just because you think "this is how it's done" doesn't make it so. Why is it so hard to admit you've never been trained and have never been involved in aviation accident investigations?
 
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Ok, your vid posted earlier didn’t model recirculation. While there is recirc at a hover, it’s negligible to the sides. It can create a FOD hazard. Extremely light debris like a plastic bag can get sucked back in but it’s not going to suck a 1,500 lb aircraft from a runway 70ft away, with prevailing wind from the west. Not to mention, it was level with the disk, not above it.

Recirc is strong near structures, not in open areas.


You obviously did not read the full dynamics of it and you need to consider how the out wash affects the fixed wing stabilities, as I did at the top of the page. The outblast also curls back though this really isn’t the big pull on the Cessna; it is merely forcing the Cessna to point at the helo while the Cessna has conservation in its velocity. Recirc is merely there to point that helos do indeed suck. Then there is the whole explanation of the dynamics interplay.
 
Long winded means you should have extra opportunity to actually falsify something I have presented.
Not really. Context is everything. And based on our initial discussion shown below, specifically, what part(s) from the NTSB process guidance do you consider wrong based on that initial discussion? Everything else you post is meaningless without that proper context.

1787858384515.png

I distinctly remember the Hultgreen crash and the politicians pressuring the Navy to blame it on an engine flame-out, not her. While not NTSB, the people are human. So where is the CVR?
Except there’s no comparison to military investigations. One, the NTSB is not authorized to investigate military accidents. And two, congress created the NTSB as an “independent establishment of the United States Government” specifically to prevent any influence and went as far to limit no more than 3 board members can even be from the same political party.

As to the CVR, where did you see the 407 had one, given that is not even a Part 135 requirement?
 
I am reminded by certain posts in this thread of the encounters in my past experiences on aircraft accident investigations with the uninvolved and ill informed.
 
Somehow the image of a 747 spooling up on a taxiway and flipping a C150 over and having someone state it was off the runway comes to mind. We just had something similar with a jet having maintenance not too long ago. Physically being off the runway is something that the air doesn’t follow.
 
Before I read this thread, I was cautious about flying near helicopters.

After reading this thread, I'm going to be way more cautious about flying near helicopters. And, I've learned that it's possible to say "be careful - after the fact does not mean because of the fact" using 47 thousand words, and yet still not have any idea at all of what that saying means. :)
 
I had a CH-47 taxi down a parallel grass runway and then they kept it spooled up for shut down. I wasn’t wrong to wait 7 minutes.
 
A CH-47 is a beast. 10,000 SHP. That can impart some serious energy to the air. Definitely wise to stay away.
 
A CH-47 is a beast. 10,000 SHP. That can impart some serious energy to the air. Definitely wise to stay away.
The CH-54 Crane was also a monster. In Vietnam I watched one make a fast approach to our company refueling point because it was in dire need that day. As it came to a hover, the downwash sucked a UH-1 cargo door off its tracks and next thing you see is a cargo door flying through the air.

1787888938302.png
 
I got lucky pausing the video in the right spot just before impact. The C-150's outboard aileron was clearly up and the roll continued opposite to control input. So clearly air disturbance from the helicopter was a link in the chain. Either pilot making a different decision would have broken the chain.
So the right aileron was up meaning attempting to roll right while still rolling left toward wing straight from a previous right bank? As if lateral stability from a right wind were rolling it left while the directional yawed it right so as to point at the helicopter? Longitudinal causes the pitch up and pitch flatten. All what you would expect with a outwash blast from the side that blasts out, curves up, curves back over itself. The helicopter essentially “sucking” the plane into itself. Thus clearly the helicopter was not “well away from the runway.” Left vortex upsets and cues a rejected landing while initially rolling right but then outwash blast hits… it is really the only coherent understanding. Were there to have been trim stall power on stall in the go around, pitch up would have been sooner while yaw would have matched roll is it would be upright into any spin. You’re saying roll and yaw mismatched and that is lateral-directional normal stabilities which happen to also point the plane into the rotor wing.
 
1. The State Police did not have to hover next to the runway like that with other traffic needing to use the runway. Fault: police.

2. The C150 pilot could have asked them to move so he could land, but didn't press the issue. Fault: police. Why? See #1.

3. You land and expedite your egress out of the runway zone.

The staties were hovering for about 3 minutes before the crash. I bet they had no intentions of landing for a while or clearing the runway. So I thing they had an attitude problem as noted earlier "We are the State Police and we do what we want!".
 
The CH-54 Crane was also a monster. In Vietnam I watched one make a fast approach to our company refueling point because it was in dire need that day. As it came to a hover, the downwash sucked a UH-1 cargo door off its tracks and next thing you see is a cargo door flying through the air.

View attachment 154627
The Skycrane beats the earth into submission
 
The staties were hovering for about 3 minutes before the crash. I
I thought it was stated earlier in the thread the interval between the 407 crossing the threshold vs the 150 crossing was around 30 seconds. Is there another reference somewhere that states the 3 minute difference and that the 407 had a CVR as stated earlier?
 
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