Buying someone else's EAB

"It had had a pre-buy and a condition inspection after purchase ... And, we've been working off a laundry list of gripes. We still missed two big discrepancies"

:dunno:
 
Daleandee said:
"It had had a pre-buy and a condition inspection after purchase ... And, we've been working off a laundry list of gripes. We still missed two big discrepancies"

:dunno:
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There's no way you're gonna find every possible discrepancy. And these two were pretty easy to miss on a fully assembled airplane that had an AW cert.
 
My (slightly tongue in cheek) opinion: it's like marrying someone else's ex-wife.
She could be great, or there could be a very valid reason why he divorced her to begin with.
 
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I would want someone more qualified than I to do a pre purchase and inspect the builders logs. Probably would use someone from EAA
 
If I remember right, @Jay Honeck found someone who knew RVs for instance that would do a thorough inspection for build quality?
 
wilkersk said:
There's no way you're gonna find every possible discrepancy. And these two were pretty easy to miss on a fully assembled airplane that had an AW cert.
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You're making my point. There have been a few buyers that have come on this site to show that certified planes have had pre-buys and condition inspections only to later learn that the plane was dangerous junk. Hammering on it so hard because it's an EAB seems to be a bit unfair. I get it that some amateur built planes can be poorly built (trust me I've looked at a few) but poor maintenance is not limited to EAB. I echo the recommendation of others to have someone familiar with that type of build assist in the pre-buy.

More seriously, I am thankful that all turned out well because it appeared that it could have turned out grossly worse. Apologies if I'm the reason you deleted your OP as I do think a discussion in this area could be profitable, especially now that MOSAIC is here and many may be looking to upgrade their aircraft choice.
 
FWIW - I had an expensive prebuy by an 182 expert. In first year of ownership I did quite a few things, more than the pre buy revealed.

Daleandee said:
There have been a few buyers that have come on this site to show that certified planes have had pre-buys and condition inspections only to later learn that the plane was dangerous junk. Hammering on it so hard because it's an EAB seems to be a bit unfair.
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Spot on. Do the most thorough pre buy you can, and expect that there's just going to be things - both certified AND EAB.

My hunch - EAB could be better maintained. Just a hunch mind you, but I'm guessing that a person who is crazy / committed enough to build a plane and then fly it is a generally a picky-airplane-mechanic-geek-type who could spend hours telling you about different types of rivets. In the certified arena, lot of guys can buy a plane and then just get cheap on maintenance because they don't have the burning interest in the marvels of all of the different things and how they work.
 
WDD said:
FWIW - I had an expensive prebuy by an 182 expert. In first year of ownership I did quite a few things, more than the pre buy revealed.



Spot on. Do the most thorough pre buy you can, and expect that there's just going to be things - both certified AND EAB.

My hunch - EAB could be better maintained. Just a hunch mind you, but I'm guessing that a person who is crazy / committed enough to build a plane and then fly it is a generally a picky-airplane-mechanic-geek-type who could spend hours telling you about different types of rivets. In the certified arena, lot of guys can buy a plane and then just get cheap on maintenance because they don't have the burning interest in the marvels of all of the different things and how they work.
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There are 2 areas on amatuer built aircraft that I think are weak points, one is wiring and 2 is fuel lines. So much time is spent on riveting, drilling holes and using proper hardware. But poorly made/improperly installed fuel lines and non-standard original wiring (as opposed to "upgrades") on EABs are I suspect very common. And the combination of the 2 have the potential to be a fatal accident waiting to happen.
 
wilkersk said:
There are 2 areas on amatuer built aircraft that I think are weak points, one is wiring and 2 is fuel lines. So much time is spent on riveting, drilling holes and using proper hardware. But poorly made/improperly installed fuel lines and non-standard original wiring (as opposed to "upgrades") on EABs are I suspect very common. And the combination of the 2 have the potential to be a fatal accident waiting to happen.
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Poorly done plumbing and wiring is not uncommon, yes. But though the combination of the two sounds bad (and is), inflight fires are extremely rare.

I've owned five experimentals. All had a few hundred hours when I bought them, so I wasn't worried about major build errors. All but one had issues, but that was more the age of the aircraft and the price point I was purchasing at, not the fact that they were experimentals. Two were disassembled, two I ferried home (one barely made it), and one, which was currently flying, I disassembled myself and trucked home... then found lots of little things that while not urgent, "might as well do this while it's apart."

And yes, three of them had fuel system issues. No electrical troubles, but they're all simple airplanes.
 
Someone pointed out to me years ago that a good prebuy is a significant portion of the cost of an annual and that I might as well have an annual done. If the deal tanks, I'm out a few hundred more than a prebuy. If the deal goes through I'm both confident in the plane's condition and pull it into my hangar with a fresh annual.
 
172andyou said:
Someone pointed out to me years ago that a good prebuy is a significant portion of the cost of an annual and that I might as well have an annual done.
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I’ve found its not so such cost but what you get in return. With an annual you get a regulatory determination of airworthiness. For a pre-buy you get an opinion of the aircraft condition. However, where it counts the most is who is performing the pre-buy or annual given what is considered airworthy is both subjective and objective in nature.
 
wilkersk said:
There are 2 areas on amatuer built aircraft that I think are weak points, one is wiring and 2 is fuel lines.
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And improper structural assembly.
A guy at our EAA chapter bought an RV-4, wings assembled, most of the fuselage complete. Noticed a couple funny looking rivets on the main stringers, close to the firewall. Drilled them out, found some nasty looking holes. Looks like one was drilled wrong, then another one was drilled way too close to it to fix things. Van's says "you have to replace the whole top stringer, on both sides". Pretty much a complete fuselage rebuild.

Then, when test-fitting the wings, he decidrs to measure the holes in the attach fittings. Finds out they were drilled slightly oversized. Scrap the wings, build a new set.

I'm more concerned about that kind of stuff. People running out of time, money and patience, and half-a$$ing it for a year before giving up and selling it as an "almost ready to fly" project.
 
Bell206 said:
I’ve found its not so such cost but what you get in return. With an annual you get a regulatory determination of airworthiness. For a pre-buy you get an opinion of the aircraft condition. However, where it counts the most is who is performing the pre-buy or annual given what is considered airworthy is both subjective and objective in nature.
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Yeah, totally fair. I should have been more explicit and said that it would be an annual by an A&P of my choosing and on the lookout for things beyond simple airworthiness.
 
172andyou said:
Yeah, totally fair. I should have been more explicit and said that it would be an annual by an A&P of my choosing and on the lookout for things beyond simple airworthiness.
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Another good option for a pre-buy on an EAB is a EAA tech counselor. Especially if it's a common build in your area.
 
EAB planes may go up in value now that you can do a condition inspection if you get the Repairman Certificate even if you didn't build the plane.
 
WDD said:
I believe it is. I didn't hear that they made the change - when did that happen?

EDIT - Apparently, I cannot type faster than @jbarrass :)
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Here's a great summary I found of some of the benefits for E-AB aircraft.

1. Flight Instruction in E-AB Without a LODA​

  • Under previous rules, CFIs couldn’t provide compensated instruction in E-AB aircraft unless the owner or instructor had obtained a Letter of Deviation Authority (LODA).
  • This process was inconsistent, poorly understood by FSDOs, and often denied—effectively discouraging legal instruction.
  • MOSAIC eliminates the LODA requirement entirely. Now, any appropriately rated CFI may provide compensated flight instruction in an E-AB aircraft without special permission.
  • The rule allows for instruction not just for the owner, but for any pilot seeking familiarization, transition training, or flight reviews.

2. Repairman Certificate for Non-Builders​

  • Before MOSAIC, only the original builder listed on the airworthiness certificate could obtain a Repairman Certificate (Inspection) and perform the required annual condition inspection.
  • New owners had to hire an A&P—even for simple maintenance—even if they were fully qualified.
  • MOSAIC introduces a new path: any subsequent owner may obtain a Repairman Certificate for their E-AB aircraft after completing a 16-hour FAA-accepted training course.
  • This empowers non-builders to take full responsibility for maintenance and annuals, reducing costs and increasing self-sufficiency.
  • Expect EAA and other organizations to ramp up course offerings quickly.

3. Expanded (But Limited) Commercial Use​

  • While MOSAIC does not allow Part 135-style commercial operations in E-AB aircraft, it does authorize certain compensated activities that were previously disallowed or vague.
  • These include:
    • Flight instruction (as above)
    • Aircraft familiarization flights
    • Sales demonstration flights
  • All activities must occur under clearly defined limits—this is not a free-for-all, but it gives instructors and manufacturers much-needed clarity.
 
#2 is wrong in that an A&P was never required for simple maintenance tasks on an EAB. Any one can perform maintenance. An A&P was required for the condition inspection. Now an LSRMI can do it for a plane they own and an LSRM can do it for any EAB.
 
172andyou said:
it would be an annual by an A&P of my choosing
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Just to add, even if you select the mechanic to perform this pre-buy annual, if the mechanic you plan to regularly use for your new purchase is not involved in that prebuy you still run the risk of surprises when he performs the 1st annual a year later.
 
Bell206 said:
Just to add, even if you select the mechanic to perform this pre-buy annual, if the mechanic you plan to regularly use for your new purchase is not involved in that prebuy you still run the risk of surprises when he performs the 1st annual a year later.
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I suppose that's true in principle. In practice, I feel like the odds of that happening are pretty small. I don't feel like there is any reason to be overly concerned that an A&P a thousand miles away that I hire to do the annual/build quality appraisal is going to ignore or miss things that my local guy later concerned.
 
172andyou said:
I don't feel like there is any reason to be overly concerned that an A&P a thousand miles away that I hire to do the annual/build quality appraisal is going to ignore or miss things that my local guy later concerned.
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Unfortunately, you’ll find that 80% of the $10,000 1st annual horror stories after purchase are directly related to that reason. Its simply because half the definition of airworthy is subjective to the person making that determination. And it’s the main reason I’ve recommended for 30+ years to use your regular mechanic for all pre-buys or at a minimum have them involved from the beginning.
 
172andyou said:
Someone pointed out to me years ago that a good prebuy is a significant portion of the cost of an annual and that I might as well have an annual done. If the deal tanks, I'm out a few hundred more than a prebuy. If the deal goes through I'm both confident in the plane's condition and pull it into my hangar with a fresh annual.
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When I bought my plane, I paid for a pre-buy, then after purchase continued it into an annual. When I went to pick up the plane, during pre-flight I found the electric trim, the fuel guages, and the pitot heat were all non-functioning.

That experience is one of the reasons I prefer doing an owner-assist annual.
 
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And at a minimum, the new mechanic is going to want to do an AD search and check himself rather than accept an "all ADs complied with" statement an the logbook. $400 for a first visit at our local shop.

Bell206's counsel above is spot on.
 
I read the title as E6B and was thinking why does this even need a thread?
 
Bell206 said:
Unfortunately, you’ll find that 80% of the $10,000 1st annual horror stories after purchase are directly related to that reason. Its simply because half the definition of airworthy is subjective to the person making that determination. And it’s the main reason I’ve recommended for 30+ years to use your regular mechanic for all pre-buys or at a minimum have them involved from the beginning.
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If you're not going to be involved in maintaining the aircraft yourself, take someone who will be to do the prebuy!

If you're the guy they call after the fact, and they say something like, "oh, the autopilot wouldn't engage in roll on the way home, so I bought a new servo. I'm sure if you just install it for me it'll be fine." - either run away, or just know that you've now become caretaker of another basket case.
 
Wish I had become an A&P... No more certified aircraft for me!
 
Half Fast said:
When I bought my plane, I paid for a pre-buy, then after purchase continued it into an annual. When I went to pick up the plane, during pre-flight I found the electric trim, the fuel guages, and the pitot heat were all non-functioning.

That experience is one of the reasons I prefer doing an owner-assist annual.
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And also you'll know your aircraft much better. Your preflight inspections will be more effective and you'll be more capable of troubleshooting any issues in flight.

Single best thing I ever did for my flying skills and safety was getting involved in my own maintenance.
 
frfly172 said:
I would want someone more qualified than I to do a pre purchase and inspect the builders logs. Probably would use someone from EAA
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I agree, but why not put yourself in the position to be the most qualified and knowledgeable?
 
4RNB said:
Take a 15 day class. It will have half of each day being hands on.
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Does this 15 day class contribute to an A&P license? Last time I looked into it the A&P was a much longer process.
 
moparrob66 said:
Does this 15 day class contribute to an A&P license? Last time I looked into it the A&P was a much longer process.
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I believe I read that once done, you may log your own time counting towards the experience required for A&P certification.
 
moparrob66 said:
Does this 15 day class contribute to an A&P license? Last time I looked into it the A&P was a much longer process.
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It should as long as you document it properly. But that's a drop in the overall 18/30 month requirement and you still have to absorb enough info over time to pass the written, oral and practical.

Here's a thread on VAF that, while not specific to how the repairman's course relates to A & P experience requirements, touches on similar material relating to building E-AB aircraft and applying that to the A & P experience requirements. https://vansairforce.net/threads/a-p-requirement.229669/#post-1792403
 
The course is training not experience so it doesn't explicitly count. But you may then perform maintenance under your own ticket for any aircraft that fits the LSRM limitation (currently LSA and soon EAB). Once you get the 30 months you may apply for an A&P test if your experience meets all the sub-areas. A very good path if your building an EAB.
 
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