Barked at for flying the ODP

LowHrsMan

LowHrsMan

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LowHrsMan
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I got barked at today by ATC for flying the ODP departing KPWT on an IFR flight plan. I'm asking for input from those with more hours so I can learn from it.

The first fix on the flight plan was OLM, but the ODP goes to another fix (CARRO) first.

Clearance delivery gave me "cleared as filed".

After takeoff and while flying the ODP, ATC called and asked what I was doing. I told them I was flying the ODP to which they replied they expected me to turn direct OLM at 400 ft agl, which would not have provided good obstacle clearance.
Conditions were MVFR at the time.

The controller then said I "should have asked for the ODP when I picked up the clearance". I was never taught do ask that. Is that what I should have done?
Or are ODP fixes supposed to be added to the flight plan?

For reference the ODP reads:

Rwy 2, climbing right turn to 4000 on heading 220° and OLM VORTAC R-346 to CARRO INT/OLM 19.43 DME, thence ... continue climb in hold (hold north, right turn, 166° inbound) to 4000 before proceeding on course.
Click to expand...

LHM
 
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Curious to hear from others, but unless ATC is giving you vectors under radar control, complying with their minimum vectoring altitudes, how you get out of the airport safely is up to you, An ODP is a really good way to do that. I fly out mountain airports regularly, and at night I’m always taking the ODP. When I get high enough that I’m convinced I’m safe, only then will I fly to the first point in my filed plan
 
Agree with the above, I'd call up and discuss with the supervisor, put on the contrite face, and ask them the same way you asked here -- "what could i have done differently? why would a controller expect the 400' turn to Olympia?". I assume this was Seattle Center? They seem to occasionally get a stick up their empennage about the dumbest things -- enough that I've sometimes just asked to cancel FF or IFR so i didnt have to deal with their hormones lest it sour my own mood. In the current ATC work environment, I feel I need to give grace, but outside of that, they seem to have all of the crabby people there.
 
LowHrsMan said:
I got barked at today by ATC for flying the ODP departing KPWT on an IFR flight plan. I'm asking for input from those with more hours so I can learn from it.

The first fix on the flight plan was OLM, but the ODP goes to another fix (CARRO) first.

Clearance delivery gave me "cleared as filed" and said they expected me to turn direct OLM at 400 ft agl, but that would not guarantee obstacle clearance.
Conditions were MVFR at the time.

The controller said I "should have asked for the ODP when I picked up the clearance". I was never taught do ask that. Is that what I should have done?
Or are ODP fixes supposed to be added to the flight plan?

For reference the ODP reads:



LHM
Click to expand...


The AIM specifically says you can fly an ODP without ATC clearance; however, I would say there really isn't a good reason to do that without informing ATC. What was your IFR release instructions? Did it say enter controlled airspace on a given heading? During the IFR release is when you should be clarifying the instructions so that you and ATC are on the same page. I see this is near Seattle class B airspace, so presumably it is a busy airspace with radar coverage down to the ground.
 
sarangan said:
The AIM specifically says you can fly an ODP without ATC clearance; however, I would say there really isn't a good reason to do that without informing ATC. ...
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^^ this ^^
It's a good idea to fly the ODP and I believe you were procedurally correct by regulation. But it's a good idea to mention the ODP you will fly. I put in into the remarks on the flight plan (though I don't know whether anyone reads that), and tell ATC when I call for release. Even though the regs say you don't have to.
 
schmookeeg said:
I assume this was Seattle Center? They seem to occasionally get a stick up their empennage about the dumbest things -- enough that I've sometimes just asked to cancel FF or IFR so i didnt have to deal with their hormones lest it sour my own mood. In the current ATC work environment, I feel I need to give grace, but outside of that, they seem to have all of the crabby people there.
Click to expand...
Wow, good to know. It was Seattle Approach. Likely the same bunch.
 
sarangan said:
The AIM specifically says you can fly an ODP without ATC clearance; however, I would say there really isn't a good reason to do that without informing ATC. What was your IFR release instructions? Did it say enter controlled airspace on a given heading? During the IFR release is when you should be clarifying the instructions so that you and ATC are on the same page. I see this is near Seattle class B airspace, so presumably it is a busy airspace with radar coverage down to the ground.
Click to expand...
Clearance was very simple: "cleared as filed to Astoria, squawk 4731, hold for release".
Release was just as simple: "void if not off in 5 mins".
 
So what I'm hearing is that while it's technically not required to tell ATC you plan to fly the ODP, it's a really good idea to let them know. Thanks!
 
LowHrsMan said:
I got barked at today by ATC for flying the ODP departing KPWT on an IFR flight plan. I'm asking for input from those with more hours so I can learn from it.

The first fix on the flight plan was OLM, but the ODP goes to another fix (CARRO) first.

Clearance delivery gave me "cleared as filed" and said they expected me to turn direct OLM at 400 ft agl, but that would not guarantee obstacle clearance.
Conditions were MVFR at the time.

The controller said I "should have asked for the ODP when I picked up the clearance". I was never taught do ask that. Is that what I should have done?
Or are ODP fixes supposed to be added to the flight plan?

For reference the ODP reads:



LHM
Click to expand...
You have to decide if you can accept a clearance as issued. If they told you they were expecting turn direct to OLM @ 400 when receiving the clearance, what are you whining about? All you needed to say was unable direct OLM at 400 and negotiated the departure.
 
Clip4 said:
You have to decide if you can accept a clearance as issued. If they told you they were expecting turn direct to OLM @ 400 when receiving the clearance, what are you whining about? All you needed to say was unable direct OLM at 400 and negotiated the departure.
Click to expand...
Except it doesn't seem to have happened this way. They carped at him AFTER he executed the ODP rather than turning directly to the first fix in the flight plan. There was no point prior to this for him to say "unable."
 
flyingron said:
Except it doesn't seem to have happened this way. They carped at him AFTER he executed the ODP rather than turning directly to the first fix in the flight plan. There was no point prior to this for him to say "unable."
Click to expand...
Correct
 
LowHrsMan said:
Correct
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Except that isn’t what you posted. “Clearance delivery gave me "cleared as filed" and said they expected me to turn direct OLM at 400 ft agl….” If that is true, you received the S in CRAFTS.

Also this airport is not in uncontrolled Class G airspace, it is in controlled Class E. ATC accepts obstacle clearance when assigning a radar vector, departure procedure, or designated Diverse Vector Area (DVA). It appears Bremerton has a DVA. I think we have a failure to communicate.
 
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Clip4 said:
Except that isn’t what you posted. “Clearance delivery gave me "cleared as filed" and said they expected me to turn direct OLM at 400 ft agl….” If that is true, you received the S in CRAFTS.
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My bad. flyingron is correct: they carped at me when I was flying the ODP. Sorry for being unclear. I will fix the original post.
 
LowHrsMan said:
My bad. flyingron is correct: they carped at me when I was flying the ODP. Sorry for being unclear. I will fix the original post.
Click to expand...
BREMERTON, WA

BREMERTON NTL (PWT)

DIVERSE VECTOR AREA (RADAR VECTORS)

AMDT 1 15SEP16 (16259) (FAA)

Rwy 2, heading as assigned by ATC; requires minimum climb of 410’ per NM to 1500.

Rwy 20, heading as assigned by ATC.

Failure to communicate by ATC.
 
LowHrsMan said:
I got barked at today by ATC for flying the ODP departing KPWT on an IFR flight plan. I'm asking for input from those with more hours so I can learn from it.

The first fix on the flight plan was OLM, but the ODP goes to another fix (CARRO) first.

Clearance delivery gave me "cleared as filed".

After takeoff and while flying the ODP, ATC called and asked what I was doing. I told them I was flying the ODP to which they replied they expected me to turn direct OLM at 400 ft agl, which would not have provided good obstacle clearance.
Conditions were MVFR at the time.

The controller then said I "should have asked for the ODP when I picked up the clearance". I was never taught do ask that. Is that what I should have done?
Or are ODP fixes supposed to be added to the flight plan?

For reference the ODP reads:



LHM
Click to expand...
ATC was wrong. I’m curious though. What was your angle of climb? Would you have made 4000 by CARRO, or would you have had to climb in the Hold?
 
schmookeeg said:
Agree with the above, I'd call up and discuss with the supervisor, put on the contrite face, and ask them the same way you asked here -- "what could i have done differently? why would a controller expect the 400' turn to Olympia?". I assume this was Seattle Center? They seem to occasionally get a stick up their empennage about the dumbest things -- enough that I've sometimes just asked to cancel FF or IFR so i didnt have to deal with their hormones lest it sour my own mood. In the current ATC work environment, I feel I need to give grace, but outside of that, they seem to have all of the crabby people there.
Click to expand...
Crabby Controllers are well distributed throughout the system.
 
sarangan said:
The AIM specifically says you can fly an ODP without ATC clearance; however, I would say there really isn't a good reason to do that without informing ATC. What was your IFR release instructions? Did it say enter controlled airspace on a given heading? During the IFR release is when you should be clarifying the instructions so that you and ATC are on the same page. I see this is near Seattle class B airspace, so presumably it is a busy airspace with radar coverage down to the ground.
Click to expand...
You can “…fly an ODP without ATC clearance…” except, I say again, EXCEPT, you were given specific departure instructions. Then you must follow those instructions.
 
MRC01 said:
^^ this ^^
It's a good idea to fly the ODP and I believe you were procedurally correct by regulation. But it's a good idea to mention the ODP you will fly. I put in into the remarks on the flight plan (though I don't know whether anyone reads that), and tell ATC when I call for release. Even though the regs say you don't have to.
Click to expand...
Yup. There is enough Controller ignorance about this that you should always verify.
 
Clip4 said:
Except that isn’t what you posted. “Clearance delivery gave me "cleared as filed" and said they expected me to turn direct OLM at 400 ft agl….” If that is true, you received the S in CRAFTS.

Also this airport is not in uncontrolled Class G airspace, it is in controlled Class E. ATC accepts obstacle clearance when assigning a radar vector, departure procedure, or designated Diverse Vector Area (DVA). It appears Bremerton has a DVA. I think we have a failure to communicate.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it has a Diverse Vector Area, but that doesn’t mean they have to use it. In this scenario, they didn’t. They did not assign him a heading to fly.
 
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Clip4 said:
BREMERTON, WA

BREMERTON NTL (PWT)

DIVERSE VECTOR AREA (RADAR VECTORS)

AMDT 1 15SEP16 (16259) (FAA)

Rwy 2, heading as assigned by ATC; requires minimum climb of 410’ per NM to 1500.

Rwy 20, heading as assigned by ATC.

Failure to communicate by ATC.
Click to expand...
A diverse vector area doesn't mean go direct to the first waypoint at 400' either.
 
I am curious, how did ATC know you were going to CARRO instead of OLM? The heading looks nearly the same for both.
 
The AIM guidance requires the pilot to determine if he needs to fly the ODP/SID or if he can avoid obstacles visually. ATC can't tell you not to fly the ODP unless they are providing obstacle separation.

Many ODPs are very simple and whether you are, or are not, following it will not be evident to ATC. Others requires a significantly different track to fly the ODP. In those cases, the pilot should inform ATC that he will be flying the ODP.

This could be presented in a much more understandable way in the AIM.
 
sarangan said:
I am curious, how did ATC know you were going to CARRO instead of OLM? The heading looks nearly the same for both.
Click to expand...
It’s about a 20 degree difference, easily detectable on the Radar scope. The ODP is not direct CARRO. It’s heading 197 to join the OLM R-346.

EDIT: I just realized he had departed RWY 2. That’s right turn to heading 220
 
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sarangan said:
The AIM specifically says you can fly an ODP without ATC clearance; however, I would say there really isn't a good reason to do that without informing ATC.
Click to expand...
I agree. Here's the AIM language (5-2-9.a.) verbatim:

ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC.​

A general observation: "without ATC clearance" does not mean "don't tell ATC what your plans are ." I'd be following my Rule No.1 of IFR flight: Always be on the same page as ATC.

More specifically, Notice there are two exceptions. Assigning a SID and radar vectors.

As @Clip4 points out, there is a divers vector area at Bremerton (it's also a Class E surface area where ATC has authority all the way the ground). It depends a bit on what was specifically said in the clearance, but if the initial part of the route was in the divers vector area, you would not be automatically entitled to fly the ODP. If departing runway 2, that's also subject to the minimum climb rate. If you can't meet it, that's a reason to advise ATC you can't accept the clearance as given and, offer your alternative - "We'll fly the ODP."

I talked a bit about this in my IFR Departures article for IFR Magazine (now with a Flying mag link)
 
The clearance was "cleared as filed, climb 4000, expect 5000 10 mins after departure". No vectors given.
The controller was annoyed because he didn't know what I was doing and expected me to turn direct OLM at 400 AGL. He specifically said this.

My take:
Since the DP says "heading assigned by ATC" and no heading was assigned in the clearance, I should have asked for one.
I also should have mentioned I intended to fly the ODP.
The controller should have assigned a heading in the clearance since that's what the DP calls for. He should also not be surprised I was flying the ODP on an MVFR day when he didn't assign a heading.
Both I and the controller could have done better.

This has been very helpful, thanks for all the insights!

LHM
 
LowHrsMan said:
The clearance was "cleared as filed, climb 4000, expect 5000 10 mins after departure". No vectors given.
The controller was annoyed because he didn't know what I was doing and expected me to turn direct OLM at 400 AGL. He specifically said this.

My take:
Since the DP says "heading assigned by ATC" and no heading was assigned in the clearance, I should have asked for one.
I also should have mentioned I intended to fly the ODP.
The controller should have assigned a heading in the clearance since that's what the DP calls for. He should also not be surprised I was flying the ODP on an MVFR day when he didn't assign a heading.
Both I and the controller could have done better.

This has been very helpful, thanks for all the insights!

LHM
Click to expand...

Here's a typical exchange I've had sometimes:

ATC: You are released for departure, clearance void if not off by... blah blah... Talk to you when airborne.

Me: Um... OK, released for departure. clearance void if..... by the way, do you want me on a specific heading?

ATC: Enter controlled airspace on a heading of 060.
 
The ODP does not say mention ATC assigned heavings. It's a straight route.

The Diverse Vector Departure says "fly assigned heading", but again it doesn't say turn at 400' direct to the first filed fix and it would be foolhardy to do so. You don't get to turn off the assigned heading until you are in radar contact (and hope you can make the climb gradient on the runway that has one) and even then you'd need a vector (or other instruction).

THe controller is just flat out wrong here. While the pilot could have told him he intended to fly the ODP, he was under no obligation to, and the controller should not have been overly surprised, let alone UNPROFESSIONALLY chastising the pilot (even if the pilot had erred, this is unsafe and irresponsible).
 
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LowHrsMan said:
cleared as filed to Astoria
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So what did you file? (Sorry if I missed it in the other posts.)

And I know what the AIM says, and you were within your rights to fly the ODP, but I was always taught to tell them up front. And pending what you're actual clearance was, I could see the Controller having other traffic to your east and not expecting you to go that way.
 
M20K said:
So what did you file? (Sorry if I missed it in the other posts.)
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KPWT OLM WINLO ZUNAB ZINKY KAST
M20K said:
And I know what the AIM says, and you were within your rights to fly the ODP, but I was always taught to tell them up front.
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I agree with you. See post 26.
M20K said:
And pending what you're actual clearance was, I could see the Controller having other traffic to your east and not expecting you to go that way.
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"Cleared as filed" with no departure vectors given.
 
LowHrsMan said:
KPWT OLM WINLO ZUNAB ZINKY KAST
Click to expand...
LowHrsMan said:
"Cleared as filed" with no departure vectors given.
Click to expand...
Okay, so you took off and headed 220 when ATC was expecting you to head 176. So I can see the Controllers concern when you headed off in a direction he wasn't expecting you to. Live and learn, and it shows why communicating is a key thing in aviation.
 
FORANE said:
I've had ladies tell me it's a key thing elsewhere also.
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giphy.gif



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Think of it this way...

ATC can not tell you not to fly the ODP unless they provide obstacle separation up to the minimum IFR altitude, but they need to know if you're going to fly it so that they can protect the applicable airspace and/or time your release appropriately.

ATC doesn't know if you need it or not. The AIM guidance puts that decision on the pilot.

If you need it, and they don't give you instructions that provide the separation, tell them. That gives them the chance to modify your departure instructions or release time, if necessary.
 
I agree with all the posts that suggest the PIC and ATC need to have the same expectations for how the departure will be conducted. If explicit directions are not provided in the clearance, then the pilot should reply with their plans. If ATC doesn't like the plans, they can provide an alternative. When providing an IFR clearance, ATC isn't just concerned about the plane on the IFR flight plan, but also about the actions of other aircraft in the general airspace that might be operating VFR.
 
If at an untowered field, I usually get from Clearance Delivery "upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading ........". If I don't, I ask. Usually I get "fly plan as filed".

If towered field, I get the "fly heading xxx upon departure".

If I don't get any, I'll add to the read back "Upon departure I'll fly ......"

I suppose if any of the "Fly heading / fly as filed" doesn't work for some reason, I'll clear that up on the ground during readback session.
 
I'm glad OP posted this. It's interesting. My experience with IFR is very limited, but around here it's always been one of two things: Controlled field, with a heading given and then some combination of vectors and handoff. Uncontrolled field, usually contacting for release by phone because radios don't work, and always a directive to contact X frequency after departure, because I'm on CTAF before I'm on the runway at the uncontrolled airport.

May have missed it above, but I'd assume you were on CTAF, then taking off and following the ODP, then when at an appropriate distance from the airport or as directed by ATC you're going to dial up their frequency and call? Asking because ATC isn't on CTAF here, so I don't know how they'd call you first. Again, maybe I'm missing something obvious.
 
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