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pfarber

pfarber

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pfarber
Question to the group: when signing a document is a signature your 'mark' (like a stylized cursive) or do you expect to be able to read each letter of the persons name?
 
No. There is an old joke about the applicant for medical school who was rejected because his signature (and handwriting) was legible.
 
As I've gotten older my signature has developed into a quick scribble that only very loosely approximates the general shape of the letters of my name. If I'm signing an electronic pad, it's a curvy line with a couple of loops that has no correlation with anything whatsoever.
 
Sometimes I think my signature is the only thing that's legible in my handwriting. Actually, it's very different when I'm signing someone's logbook or a legal document (fairly readable) than when I'm signing, say a credit card slip (an undecipherable scrawl).

But no. Legibility is not required. That's why many documents have a line to print the name as well as a space for signing.

Here's the most commonly accepted legal definition of a "signature: from the Uniform Commercial Code:
A signature may be made (i) manually or by means of a device or machine, and (ii) by the use of any name, including a trade or assumed name, or by a word, mark, or symbol executed or adopted by a person with present intention to authenticate a writing.​
 
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pfarber said:
Question to the group: when signing a document is a signature your 'mark' (like a stylized cursive) or do you expect to be able to read each letter of the persons name?
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Look at the signatures on the Declaration of Independence.

Now, compare those signatures to the slop of today...

I guess today we don't expect to be able to read signatures. sadly.
(written by someone whose penmanship is truly horrible - medical students could take lessons from me)
 
With paper and ink, my signature is legible as my name.

Electronic signatures? I don't even try anymore. They could be my name or they could be a curse of slow death by fire ants written in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs for all I know.
 
My signature evolved (devolved?) rapidly when I was flight instructing full time. The first time I bought a house, the banker kept saying, “sign your FULL name.” :rofl:
 
No body makes squiggly lines like me. Ability to read it depends on how much I care.
 
I assume this is a trap and I'm about to be made fun of, but my signature has devolved into basically being my initials connected with loose squiggles, forming a rather distinctive "mark"

I can't think of the last time I had to furnish a wet signature other than a random paper check maybe once a year. All of my digital e-signatures have been perfectly legible. :P
 
One of the things I didn't know about Mexico before I lived there is that signatures are often more like seals or even logos than just a repeatable writing of ones name.
 
A signature always reveals a man's character - and sometimes even his name.
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A couple of months ago I was getting a bunch of spam on social media that would invent a stylized signature for you and give you some penmanship sheets to practice the pseudo calligraphy. It was cheap ($20-40), probably not nearly so "distinctive" as they seller made it seem. I figured that I sign things by hand -- even digital captures via tablet and stylus -- so infrequently that I'd lose the practice, if I even bothered to learn it in the first place.
 
As a former US Navy disbursing officer (J6916 was my number), I had to sign my name on pay documents many hundreds of times per month, and rubber stamps were not permitted. There was no such thing as e-signatures at my level of serfdom. We were counseled in Naval Supply Corps school to shorten our signature to achieve an economy of length and style, leading to speed versus accuracy, resulting in illegible scrawls.

That, and the fact that Penmanship was the only course I flunked in high school, combine to make my signature so bad that even Doctors can't read it!

I tell people that so long as the bank recognises it, I'm good!

-Skip
 
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Part of my job was quality certification, so I was signing C of C’s, data sheets, and other documents, sometimes 10 or more a day. My signature quickly fell to MD levels or worse.
 
pfarber said:
Question to the group: when signing a document is a signature your 'mark' (like a stylized cursive) or do you expect to be able to read each letter of the persons name?
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In what context? If talking aviation, there is guidance depending on the application. However, for the most part the type and number of your certificate takes care of whose "mark" it is.
 
Mine has been illegibly distinctive and non-distinct at the same time since I became an adult. I don’t even know WTF it says.
 
Skip Miller said:
As a former US Navy disbursing officer (J6916 was my number), I had to sign my name on pay documents many hundreds of times per month, and rubber stamps were not permitted. There was no such thing as e-signatures at my level of serfdom. We were counseled in Naval Supply Corps school to shorten our signature to achieve an economy of length and style, leading to speed versus accuracy, resulting in illegible scrawls.

That, and the fact that Penmanship was the only course I flunked in high school, combine to make my signature so bad that even Doctors can't read it!

I tell people that so long as the bank recognises it, I'm good!

-Skip
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Much like Skip, I know EXACTLY when my signature went from a readable cursive version to an unintelligible scrawl in which you can only approximately identify the first letter of my first and last name (both R of course).

It was 1999 or maybe 2000, I was at Edwards AFB, and the powers that be decided to re-zone the restricted area badges (like access to the Flightline and other secure areas). As a result, every single person having such a badge (which on Edwards was thousands of people) had to redo the paperwork, which involved getting signatures from the approving authority for each area. Now, for Flightline, which was probably the largest, we temporarily appointed extra people as being authorized, of which I became one. All the secure areas reps gathered in a conference room one week and pretty much just signed approval paperwork for days, nonstop. It was mind- and wrist-numbing.

And that's when my signature changed. There was no way I was signing nearly thousands of times in a row in a few days. Hand cramping was guaranteed!
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Mine has been illegibly distinctive and non-distinct at the same time since I became an adult. I don’t even know WTF it says.
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I'm tempted, but too embarrassed to share as mine is the same. You can definitely, kind of make out the "E" after that it gets a little loosey goosey.
 
I rather enjoyed the Hanko stamps when living in Japan. Traditionally the family name kanji, it's also possible to get them in romanji to represent a western name. Whenever a delivery person needed a signature, I could whip that out that. It always felt like a little moment of ceremony, and I always enjoyed the reaction of the Japanese when a 6-foot tall lily white Viking-looking guy used a hanko instead of signing initials as they expected from foreigners.

hanko.jpg
 
My signature is somewhat legible, especially my last name. However, that's the only thing I ever (or can) produce in Cursive. Everything else is printed Caps ever since Engineering Drawing Classes over 65+ years ago. I took class notes in print faster than cursive and they were much more legible.
 
X3 Skier said:
My signature is somewhat legible, especially my last name. However, that's the only thing I ever (or can) produce in Cursive. Everything else is printed Caps ever since Engineering Drawing Classes over 65+ years ago. I took class notes in print faster than cursive and they were much more legible.
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My grandma taught country school 100 years ago…her superintendent visited one day, saw her printing, and told her to skip printing and start the kids in cursive from day 1. There were people in that area who couldn’t write in print, and one who got sent to the principal’s office when he changed schools and the teacher thought he was showing off.
 
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I'd put an image up of my sister's scrawl... but am reluctant to put it out there on the web.

Her signature kind of/sort of looks like a shaky J on it's side, but not that neat... the whole thing has lots of wiggle.

When I sign for something at, say, the local pharmacy, using the "pen" on the screen... that signature is more legible than my sister's
 
Bell206 said:
In what context? If talking aviation, there is guidance depending on the application. However, for the most part the type and number of your certificate takes care of whose "mark" it is.
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what guidance? the FAR says simply signature and certificate number. I would say the vast majority of original log books from the '40s and '50s were written in cursive, making deciphering them now almost impossible. current FARs do not address printing or cursive other than just that the entry be made.

even where I work it only says signature and number. nothing about the quality of readability of the signature.
 
Bell206 said:
In what context? If talking aviation, there is guidance depending on the application.
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Now that @pfarber mentioned it, I know that the FAA has some stated standards for electronic signatures, but do you have an example of where a specific form of pen-and-ink signature is required?

Not aviation. It was a home purchase years ago and the closer insisted that I sign my full name, including my middle name. I couldn't help replying, "OK if you insist, but that's not my signature."
 
I have a document from 1875 that was signed with a big X and one small x. I guess the signer was a jr. It had 2 other signatures that identified the X's as the signers mark.

The document was for a rancher that registered his brand with one of the cattle raisers associations in Texas.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It was a home purchase years ago and the closer insisted that I sign my full name, including my middle name. I couldn't help replying, "OK if you insist, but that's not my signature."
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I’ve found that even when my signature was legible, most people subsequently spelled my name wrong anyway.
 
Mine varies by the number of times I have to sign within a short time period, or if I've been really yanking hard on the wrenches just prior to being asked to sign.

On non legal stuff, I might sign with some off the wall name to see if the person requiring the signature is even paying attention. Don't know how many times I've signed with something like Genghis Khan, Marquis de Sade, Kilroy and others...
 
I have a third desktop in the office for the GenZ kids. You should see the look on their faces when I instruct them to sign in the box, in cursive, full name: First, Middle, Last as it appears in type (to match their DLs). If it doens't match and they cross a border with the medical, the Mexican Federales are going to demand Benjamin.

Worse, if the typewritten name on thr DL doesn't match the medical, it's "no checkride for you today, my designation is worth more that that".
Most have learned a facsimile of their FN LN. But the Middle name? NOT.

So the browser on the 3rd machine defaults to the Palmer Penmanship Wiki page. and Voila! It's 2nd grade, again.
 
DJTorrente said:
A couple of months ago I was getting a bunch of spam on social media that would invent a stylized signature for you and give you some penmanship sheets to practice the pseudo calligraphy. It was cheap ($20-40), probably not nearly so "distinctive" as they seller made it seem. I figured that I sign things by hand -- even digital captures via tablet and stylus -- so infrequently that I'd lose the practice, if I even bothered to learn it in the first place.
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I actually got this. They sent me some questions and sent me four signatures based on what I wanted to chose from. It's pretty nice, but I've not yet learned how to sign it in that form regularly... I'm still working on it.
 
pfarber said:
what guidance?
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As I stated depends on application. For mx logbook entries dont know of any on signatures but there is with other required docs that address signature requirements. Regardless the certificate number and type must be legible.

midlifeflyer said:
do you have an example of where a specific form of pen-and-ink signature is required?
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Mainly with aircraft documents. For example, Part 47.13 and 49.13. Theres additional supporting info for 49.13 but cant get the DRS to cooperate at the moment.
 
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Federal law (ESIGN Act of 2000) says that digital signatures have same legal status as handwritten signature. For areas not covered by Federal law, 49 states have adopted UETA.

A few industries are behind the times. Business insurance, health insurance, and financial management, for example. I think they are just stuck in bureaucratic inertia.

For example, Ascensus is the largest retirement plan trustee in the US. Yet they are constantly requiring our plan administrator to print, sign, and scan request forms from participants. I can approve a million dollar payroll online but not a thousand dollar 401k distribution.
 
bbchien said:
I have a third desktop in the office for the GenZ kids. You should see the look on their faces when I instruct them to sign in the box, in cursive, full name: First, Middle, Last as it appears in type (to match their DLs). If it doens't match and they cross a border with the medical, the Mexican Federales are going to demand Benjamin.

Worse, if the typewritten name on thr DL doesn't match the medical, it's "no checkride for you today, my designation is worth more that that".
Most have learned a facsimile of their FN LN. But the Middle name? NOT.

So the browser on the 3rd machine defaults to the Palmer Penmanship Wiki page. and Voila! It's 2nd grade, again.
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A friend of mine didn't find out until he joined the air force. His name on his birth certificate is spelled "Jeffry" and not Jeffrey. Called his parents up at roll call trying to get it sorted. They knew of the error at the hospital when he was born, but after 6 kids they apparently stopped caring.
 
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Mine is an illegible scribble. Feel like they they really have little meaning anymore.

Heard a great story about how thousands of mail in ballots in my County were rejected due to inability to match and verify signatures and a vast majority was from the younger generation who has had zero emphasis on maintaining a physical signature in this digital age.
 
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