Why have we not switched to an oval pattern?

SkyChaser said:
I did power-off 180s with my CFI before I got my PPL, but usually didn't put in all the flaps, much less put them in while still on downwind/abeam the touchdown point, as the focus was on remaining as high as possible until the runway was made.
Click to expand...
Indeed. There are many ways to steepen the approach without power, fewer to shallow it....
 
On that subject…. Anybody ever pull flaps back out if they hit too much sink to extend the glide more? I’m too cowardly to try taking out flaps without adding power.
 
You could fly a circular pattern and announce your position with clock positions:

"Barnburner 123FU, Four O'Clock fer twoo nayiner. Fixin' tuh make a full stop."
 
MountainDude said:
Oval pattern should save many lives. Stall-spins in the pattern are responsible for many fatal accidents, and oval patterns reduce the risk, without any downsides.
Click to expand...

No data exist to justify those conclusions.

Salty said:
On that subject…. Anybody ever pull flaps back out if they hit too much sink to extend the glide more? I’m too cowardly to try taking out flaps without adding power.
Click to expand...

Yes, you can do it. Carefully. I probably wouldn't attempt it below, say, 200' AGL, as the reduction in drag does not outweigh the destabilizing effect and loss of lift over such a short time period. It would be best to make that decision above at least 500' AGL.

A lot of people think retracting flaps on approach is verboten, but it really isn't. It's usually only useful as compensation for poor technique, though. Having a better technique is ... better.
 
dmspilot said:
No data exist to justify those conclusions.



Yes, you can do it. Carefully. I probably wouldn't attempt it below, say, 200' AGL, as the reduction in drag does not outweigh the destabilizing effect and loss of lift over such a short time period. It would be best to make that decision above at least 500' AGL.

A lot of people think retracting flaps on approach is verboten, but it really isn't. It's usually only useful as compensation for poor technique, though. Having a better technique is ... better.
Click to expand...
True, but sometimes all the technique in the world isn’t enough to counter a bunch of unexpected sink. It’s usually fixable if it happens above 500. It’s when you’re just a shade high at 500 and then the bottom drops out….
 
Salty said:
On that subject…. Anybody ever pull flaps back out if they hit too much sink to extend the glide more? I’m too cowardly to try taking out flaps without adding power.
Click to expand...
I do it once in a while. I just make sure to manage pitch appropriately. However, on engine-out exercises I usually end up needing to slip to get rid of excess altitude.
 
How do you announce your position in an oval pattern? "Somewhere parallel to the runway?. Turning sort of towards a final? Entering the oval pattern?"

A low wing aircraft in a constant turn towards the airport doesn't see all of the area outside of his turn, so wouldn't that be a time where accurate position reporting is critical? (And there's no such thing as accurate position reporting as long as NORDO aircraft share the pattern.)
 
Half Fast said:
In a high wing, you can lose sight of the runway while banked.

(Just one more good reason to fly low wings like the good Lord intended.)
Click to expand...
Real birds have high wings!!!
 
I generally fly a oval pattern but level the wings briefly to make a traffic check at the 90 position as it’s called in the military. I really don’t care what pattern others fly as long as it’s a pattern. Logging cross country time in the pattern is ridiculous. There is a flight school located at a airport where I go to lunch now and then. The head instructor should be shot for allowing the pattern they seem to be teaching if you can even call it a pattern.
 
Albany Tom said:
On my sport checkride, the examiner asked me why I was doing a parallelogram pattern. I offered to do a rectangular one...or more rectangular one, and he said, nah, you're good, it's just a little weird.
Click to expand...
Some examiners will treat flying the pattern as demonstrating your ability to fly a rectangular course ground reference maneuver and account for wind drift.
 
While we're at it, all VFR approaches should begin at High Key with power at idle.

Max, relax, level, ball = no spin/stall on the approach turn

You call it the downwind, it's just closer to the runway. Then the 180, 90, and final. You are only really getting rid of the crosswind call.

Or, just leave well enough alone

Also, you kids get off my lawn!
 
SkyChaser said:
I did power-off 180s with my CFI before I got my PPL, but usually didn't put in all the flaps, much less put them in while still on downwind/abeam the touchdown point, as the focus was on remaining as high as possible until the runway was made.
Click to expand...

Power off is different that a normal pattern.

I agree with you, I would prefer to make the runway and run off the far end at a slow speed, versus not making the runway at a much higher speed.

Same with the T-37 single engine pattern. I flew a tighter pattern single engine. My one instructor said on one flight, if you don't do it by the book, I will give you an Unsat. So I flew one to the book. In the debrief, I asked him, between the two of us, if he actually lost and engine, would he fly the book pattern or the one I was doing. He looking around, leaned close and whispered, YOURS. :D
 
bflynn said:
You want to be aligned and stable on final, not in a rounding turn to approach the runway.
Click to expand...

For student pilots yes, but plenty of pilots of low forward vis airplanes fly a continuous turn all the way to the numbers. It can be perfectly stabilized in airspeed, turn rate, and descent rate. I did it nearly every landing. Flying final aligned with the runway feels weird to me now. :)
 
dbahn said:
How do you announce your position in an oval pattern? "Somewhere parallel to the runway?. Turning sort of towards a final? Entering the oval pattern?"

A low wing aircraft in a constant turn towards the airport doesn't see all of the area outside of his turn, so wouldn't that be a time where accurate position reporting is critical? (And there's no such thing as accurate position reporting as long as NORDO aircraft share the pattern.)
Click to expand...

In the USAF you announced base, when you started your turn.

As has been stated, you can roll wings level for a couple of seconds to check final.
 
dbahn said:
There's nothing wrong with steep turns in the traffic pattern. There IS something wrong with excessive back pressure on the controls. A steep descending turn does not require additional back pressure, just a more rapid loss of altitude.

Rectangular patterns are more forgiving in windy conditions, because you have a ground reference perspective based on parallel lines (crosswind/base, upwind/downwind) and those can all be visually referenced by the axis of the intended runway.
Click to expand...
This!!
And just keeping your ball centered when not purposefully slipping is all that’s needed to moot this discussion. The oval just creates more questions, even if some of our patterns sometimes resemble parts of an oval in practice (because of wind or distance from the runway).
 
Last edited:
SkyChaser said:
I did power-off 180s with my CFI before I got my PPL, but usually didn't put in all the flaps, much less put them in while still on downwind/abeam the touchdown point, as the focus was on remaining as high as possible until the runway was made.
Click to expand...
No pulling power to idle, hold nose up until white arc, then dump full flaps while diving through a 180-turn to a landing? My CFI showed me that one and had me practice it a time or two as an example of how to lose altitude quickly and use pitch to keep the airspeed in the white arc.
 
Salty said:
On that subject…. Anybody ever pull flaps back out if they hit too much sink to extend the glide more? I’m too cowardly to try taking out flaps without adding power.
Click to expand...

You should try it and see. (at altitude obviously) I know in my plane it really matters how much flaps I have in and what my airspeed is. If I'm at 40* of flaps, Ill most likely be too slow if I pull it back to say 20* It would be something interesting to try up at altitude and see how it affects you.
 
SkyChaser said:
Oh, are you one of the pilots that like to put all the flaps in at once? I'd read before starting training that some pilots put them in incrementally like I learned, but some like to just dump them all in and I've always wanted to talk to someone who does that and ask about it.
Click to expand...

I flew that way on the Bonanza, although I don't teach it that way.

My rationale was that a 6-step checklist beats a 7-step or 8-step one. :) Probably categorized under laziness, but I prefer "efficiency"
 
Salty said:
On that subject…. Anybody ever pull flaps back out if they hit too much sink to extend the glide more? I’m too cowardly to try taking out flaps without adding power.
Click to expand...
I would offer that if you’re at the point of putting in full flaps, you’re probably too close to the ground to dive and gain the airspeed needed for a better glide angle with less flaps. Especially in sink.
 
SoonerAviator said:
No pulling power to idle, hold nose up until white arc, then dump full flaps while diving through a 180-turn to a landing? My CFI showed me that one and had me practice it a time or two as an example of how to lose altitude quickly and use pitch to keep the airspeed in the white arc.
Click to expand...

We did that sorta as emergency procedure, but she called it emergency descent, so it wasn't to a landing.

Pinecone said:
Power off is different that a normal pattern.

I agree with you, I would prefer to make the runway and run off the far end at a slow speed, versus not making the runway at a much higher speed.
Click to expand...

Well, we flew a normal pattern and then the engine would "quit" on downwind, and I'd have to make the runway. And I never had issues with being high speed, since best glide and approach speed were almost identical in the Archer I flew. Once I got to short final, I was just flying a normal approach for me, if I flew the rest of it right.
 
Salty said:
On that subject…. Anybody ever pull flaps back out if they hit too much sink to extend the glide more? I’m too cowardly to try taking out flaps without adding power.
Click to expand...
Once.

It was during my instrument training. We were returning to our non-instrument home base after a session of approaches. When we got in range, I put in initial flaps.

My CFII: Do you have the runway?
Me: Yes
He: Good (pulling power to idle). You just lost your engine.
Me: You son of a *****! (retracting the flaps)
 
Our military aeroclub had a T-41 (172 on steroids, climb prop, 210 HP) eat a flap on base - he was level at the time. The CFI said the asymmetry was "challenging". Odd and weird outlier, I know, but he was glad he wasn't turning at the time. I got a little paranoid after that in the T-41s, only dropping flaps after rolling out on each segment.
 
The switch to Oval Patterns will phase in with Circular Runways.
 
FAA says square as does the 600hr CFI?

Ever look on USAJobs for the requirements for a ASI? Lower than a regional FO
 
Salty said:
On that subject…. Anybody ever pull flaps back out if they hit too much sink to extend the glide more? I’m too cowardly to try taking out flaps without adding power.
Click to expand...
Did once on an instructor checkride. In a 150. Examiner pulled the throttle to idle as I turned base, with about 20 flaps in. I angled a bit more toward the runway and added a bit more flap that I shouldn't have. Turned final and could see that there was no way. This at about 400 feet. I sucked the flaps up as I dropped the nose and dived to 90 or more, then levelled off in ground effect over the farm field under the approach path. Floated to the runway and started lowering the flaps to kill the speed, and flared and touched down at the TD markers.

I passed the ride.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Some examiners will treat flying the pattern as demonstrating your ability to fly a rectangular course ground reference maneuver and account for wind drift.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's fair. But I couldn't blame the wind. There was no wind. It was cold, and there were little spits of snow, but no wind.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
In front of me, I have my T-41A checklist from 1967. It says Continental 0-300-D, 145 horsepower.
Click to expand...

B and C were Continental IO-360, 210 HP with constant speed props. B mainly flown by the Army. The C was used at the USAFA.
 
Salty said:
On that subject…. Anybody ever pull flaps back out if they hit too much sink to extend the glide more? I’m too cowardly to try taking out flaps without adding power.
Click to expand...
During prep for my PP check ride, my CFI pulled the power midfield downwind and I had full flaps by the time I rolled out on to final. My CFI asked if we’re going to make the runway. I said “no, not with this flap setting.” He said, “well you should probably do something about it.” So I raised the flaps and landed without adding power.
 
Pinecone said:
B and C were Continental IO-360, 210 HP with constant speed props. B mainly flown by the Army. The C was used at the USAFA.
Click to expand...
Almost - the "C" was fixed pitch. Got my instrument rating in them.
 
On the taking flaps back out question, I do it pretty much every time I do a power off landing (assuming I'm in the pattern somewher past midfield downwind). SOP for me in my lowly 150D, is put in 20 as soon as power goes away, make a tighter base, then use the flap handle like a throttle. I can vary glidepath up or down as needed without touching the power, kind of like spoilers in a glider. Would be much harder with slow electric flaps.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top