Why are people afraid of Class B?

When I first got my ticket I was a little "worried" about the Bravo near Tampa and Orlando - but after you do it it's pretty easy. Having now landed and departed from 5 or 6 Bravo's I honestly don't see the problem. Yes you need to know how to talk on the radio and do so efficiently but other than that It's pretty easy.

**Side Bar*** I am flying into JFK in 3 week. I am still a bit nervous about that. I'm not ashamed to lie. A little itty-bitty piston Cirrus at JFK. Should be fun :)
 
EminiTrader said:
When I first got my ticket I was a little "worried" about the Bravo near Tampa and Orlando - but after you do it it's pretty easy. Having now landed and departed from 5 or 6 Bravo's I honestly don't see the problem. Yes you need to know how to talk on the radio and do so efficiently but other than that It's pretty easy.

**Side Bar*** I am flying into JFK in 3 week. I am still a bit nervous about that. I'm not ashamed to lie. A little itty-bitty piston Cirrus at JFK. Should be fun :)
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JFK is easy. The hardest part is handing over the credit card to pay the fees.
 
jordane93 said:
JFK is easy. The hardest part is handing over the credit card to pay the fees.
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Fortunately I wont be paying the fees - but good to know it's easy. I studied the taxi diagrams and it seems like a pretty straight shot to Sheltair on 13R/31L or 4L - I'm sure I'll be on one of those runways.
Thanks Jordan
 
VFR, I've been cleared through both the DTW and CLE Bravos, and last week I was cleared IFR directly over BWI on the way down to the DC area, and over JFK on the way back home.

I understand that ATC wants to be sure I can communicate efficiently and follow instructions accurately if I'm going to be allowed into a Bravo. That's okay, I appreciate that they have a lot of traffic to handle in those airspaces, and are responsible for separating everyone, not just IFR aircraft. It only works if everyone is on their A game.

@Sundancer, much respect to you for having the confidence to fly VFR in the complicated airspace near DC without talking to anyone. It's totally unfamiliar to me and I would have been afraid of violating some TFR that just cropped up if I hadn't been IFR. I paid for that peace of mind with a route that took me nearly an hour out of my way (before I complained and got something less crazy), but I wouldn't have done it any other way.
 
Not afraid of B, but avoid it if at all possible.

- Greater possibility of an encounter with wake turbulence
- Snotty FBOs with outrageous fuel prices
- Succumbing to TSA and other security theater
- Greater possibility of "Call this number"

I know where I'm not wanted.

Why should I subject myself to any of this when there are almost always better alternatives? By the time I get in the "B" courtesy car or taxi and drive around to the commercial side, I could have landed at the local uncontrolled or "D", got their car and drove to the commercial "B" curb, picked up the pax, and returned to my airplane.
 
Not true everywhere, especially where I live.

JohnAJohnson said:
Not afraid of B, but avoid it if at all possible.

- Greater possibility of an encounter with wake turbulence
- Snotty FBOs with outrageous fuel prices
- Succumbing to TSA and other security theater
- Greater possibility of "Call this number"

I know where I'm not wanted.

Why should I subject myself to any of this when there are almost always better alternatives? By the time I get in the "B" courtesy car or taxi and drive around to the commercial side, I could have landed at the local uncontrolled or "D", got their car and drove to the commercial "B" curb, picked up the pax, and returned to my airplane.
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jordane93 said:
JFK is easy. The hardest part is handing over the credit card to pay the fees.
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How bad are those? I also wondered about Miami as well..had a few opportunities to head over there for the night with some friends, but have no idea what that would cost me in ramp fees, etc..
 
In the mid atlantic there is controlled space everywhere and you best get used to talking to ATC or take the long way around. I enjoy the radio part of flying, maybe my amateur radio days kicking in.

I've been out of the (KILG) class delta space for three years now since we are retired here at the beach in Ocean City, Maryland. I went up to KILG yesterday to pick up my Bride and when getting ready to taxi out from the FBO I called with just my tail number. (head slap) I was scolded by ground for not providing the full request and immediately did so on my follow up call. Just a brain fart I guess...felt like a dope. Taxied out and departed for home with no issues. I used to know all the tower folks when I worked at the airport but didn't recognize the voice giving me hell. If it's someone I know I'm sure they will bust my chops when I see them.
 
Caramon13 said:
How bad are those? I also wondered about Miami as well..had a few opportunities to head over there for the night with some friends, but have no idea what that would cost me in ramp fees, etc..
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A couple hundred dollars including gas. IAD, BOS, BWI were around the same. PIT, CLE and PHL are around 150 including gas IIRC.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Not afraid of B, but avoid it if at all possible.

- Greater possibility of an encounter with wake turbulence
- Snotty FBOs with outrageous fuel prices
- Succumbing to TSA and other security theater
- Greater possibility of "Call this number"

I know where I'm not wanted.

Why should I subject myself to any of this when there are almost always better alternatives? By the time I get in the "B" courtesy car or taxi and drive around to the commercial side, I could have landed at the local uncontrolled or "D", got their car and drove to the commercial "B" curb, picked up the pax, and returned to my airplane.
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Not my experience either.

More heavy traffic, sure, but more runway space to deal with it.

Snotty is in your head. But less than well trained or experienced desk folks is a real obstacle unless you understand they are often more intimidated than you are. The largest city FBOs have more intimidating customers than staff. Be nice and you'll get it back.

Fuel prices are high and you have to buy some to keep the big fee waived.

What is a TSA? Never seen signs of any at any Class B,C,D airport.

Yeah, you gotta do what you'll told and say what you are doing or you will have to call. Been there and it can suck.

But I get it. If you don't get in there and really try it, things can seem unwelcoming.




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Caramon13 said:
How bad are those? I also wondered about Miami as well..had a few opportunities to head over there for the night with some friends, but have no idea what that would cost me in ramp fees, etc..
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I wonder too. JFK? MIA? EWR?

I went into MIA, had a guy go pickup our passenger, tipped him and left. We were there for 20 mins but they missed me. I tried to check in but made it clear there was no hurry so they could attend to others. When it appeared I was clogging the ramp, I offered to fore go the fuel and just get out of the way and was gone. Is there a landing fee there? Ramp fee? Lol

Stopped at KEWR to drop some passengers and take the courtesy car into the Ironbound for lunch. Topped it off to waive the fee. I was told that the Port Authority would catch up with me via the mail. I recall something about no landing fee but there is a takeoff fee(??). I don't know but a local T-storm blocked all NE departures. Airliners were being taxied into parking areas but I was suddenly a rushed number 1 for a SE departure. I took it, slightly screwed up the DP but got away clean. No mail. Is there a landing/takeoff fee there?

Busy Newark was challenging.


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jordane93 said:
A couple hundred dollars including gas. IAD, BOS, BWI were around the same. PIT, CLE and PHL are around 150 including gas IIRC.
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I expect to buy gas... the Q is how much beyond gas?


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Ryanb said:
Because it's unfriendly toward VFR traffic. If you're IFR than it's a different story, I'd believe this to be the reason that most people have such a bias toward it. I've always preferred to be in controlled airspace rather than uncontrolled airspace, but that's just me.
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Fly VFR n the CVG Class B VFR, they are very friendly.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Not afraid of B, but avoid it if at all possible.

- Greater possibility of an encounter with wake turbulence
- Snotty FBOs with outrageous fuel prices
- Succumbing to TSA and other security theater
- Greater possibility of "Call this number"

I know where I'm not wanted.

Why should I subject myself to any of this when there are almost always better alternatives? By the time I get in the "B" courtesy car or taxi and drive around to the commercial side, I could have landed at the local uncontrolled or "D", got their car and drove to the commercial "B" curb, picked up the pax, and returned to my airplane.
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Depends on how you conduct yourself and a little on what you're flying.

I don't make decisions based on airspace, if my destination is in G or B, all the same.

If you don't screw up you won't get a "call this number"

FBOs tend to treat you well if you know how to handle yourself, also I've noted having a interesting GA plane helps, taildraggers, floats, RVs etc. After being friendly and nice, combined with a few questions about my plane, more times than not I end up getting out without paying many, sometimes any, of the fees.

I've also not had to deal with TSA, even landing at the larger east coast B fields.
 
My discovery flight was from Palo Alto, through the SFO bravo, around the Golden Gate Bridge, and back at < 2000 feet. One thing I remember about that flight is that I announced to SFO tower (and everybody else) that our Skyhawk was flying at "one seven thousand". Never have been bothered by bravo though. As long as you're on the ball, they're just like any other airport, except more expensive. ;)
 
GMascelli said:
I've been out of the (KILG) class delta space for three years now ...when getting ready to taxi out from the FBO I called with just my tail number. (head slap) I was scolded by ground for not providing the full request and immediately did so on my follow up call.
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Not following. You called with just your tail number because you didn't want to say too much on initial call because they might be busy, and they scolded you because they're in fact not busy and, thus, you wasted their time (while being not busy) by making them insert an extra call?
 
I love flying into Bravo's, and I've always wanted to fly into SFO. (It's only 30 minutes away.) But the last time I looked, I would have paid around $250 in fees. I don't like SF enough to pay that to land.

I wanted to fly into LAX the last time I was down that way, but chose Hawthorne instead. (Mainly because LAX doesn't have avgas.)
 
I have a stupid item on my bucket list. I for some reason want to fly and land in all the Class B airports. So far I have BWI, IAD, JFK, LGA, BOS, ATL. Only another twenty...
And I am not going to admit what I spent so far.

Tim
 
I avoided Phoenix class B by flying under it all the time. Using flight following from Tucson I've talked to Phoenix approach until they release me to Class D and can attest that they can be some of the grouchiest controllers on the planet. After listening I learned why, with all the foreign training going on, they have to repeat themselves and/or ask the pilots to repeat themselves several times which limits the amount of radio time that can be shared with other pilots. About a month ago, I was flying back to Tucson and contacted Phoenix departure for flight following. She asked for my destination and intentions and I said "Tucson, and staying under the Bravo shelf until I can climb out of these bumps to seven thousand five hundred." She laughed and said, "Cleared into Bravo for your climb and proceed on course." I said, "you must be new." She laughed.
 
tspear said:
I have a stupid item on my bucket list. I for some reason want to fly and land in all the Class B airports. So far I have BWI, IAD, JFK, LGA, BOS, ATL. Only another twenty...
And I am not going to admit what I spent so far.
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What's your plan for ADW and NKX? ;)
 
asicer said:
What's your plan for ADW and NKX? ;)
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Get arrested? :D
In reality, I have actually talked to a ADW a few years ago. They did give me the process to allow me to land, taxi and take off. But I did not have the time and money to jump through the hoops.

Tim
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Not following. You called with just your tail number because you didn't want to say too much on initial call because they might be busy, and they scolded you because they're in fact not busy and, thus, you wasted their time (while being not busy) by making them insert an extra call?
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Yep, pretty much sums it up.
 
tspear said:
I have a stupid item on my bucket list. I for some reason want to fly and land in all the Class B airports. So far I have BWI, IAD, JFK, LGA, BOS, ATL. Only another twenty...
And I am not going to admit what I spent so far.

Tim
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Not so crazy. Mine is to fly GA into every city with an NHL team and attend a home game, buying a jersey at each one.
 
Being a low hour pilot I've never been in Bravo because it's 150nm away from me, but I have been to C/D by myself and it's no big deal. Knowing what it cost to land at some Bravo airports I will likely just fly through their airspace to get to another smaller, cheaper airport. wake turbulence makes me nervous and I wouldn't want to deal with lots of heavy traffic while I'm trying to takeoff or land..

But I do enjoy talking to controllers, In the beginning I was definitely afraid to talk on the radio, I would miss calls, miss transponder squawk codes, read back instructions wrong. But now I'm pretty proficient and it make me feel like I'm a actually a pilot :)

Doing most of my training in uncontrolled airspace, i have found sometimes the procedures approach/tower tell me seem kind of weird. Just today I was descending out of 10,000 into Reno from the west and they cleared me to continue on the base to 16 left, well that means I was going to cross the approach to 16 right, which is the runway all the big planes land on, since I was only 5 miles out I asked if they would like me to cross midfield to a left downwind, they told me to just continue. My TCAS showed no one coming, I didn't hear anyone on the radios coming, and I couldn't see anyone so I did as told. I felt it was safe just strange. Of course when I got back to my uncontrolled home field I crossed mid field and dropped into the pattern :D
 
Rykymus said:
Not so crazy. Mine is to fly GA into every city with an NHL team and attend a home game, buying a jersey at each one.
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Now that sounds cool. I used to follow the NHL, but they have made it too hard. I grew up with the Caps, but live outside Boston now. To watch all the games would cost a fortune and need to buy multiple packages. Really stupid.

Tim
 
Why are people afraid of Class B?

Because it might mess up their grade point average..??
 
spiderweb said:
People bitched and whined when one of the local airports went to Class D.

But with the gliders, gyrocopters, helocopters, students, bizjets, and even blimps. THAT was a place to be afraid of.

Do people feel safer in uncontrolled airspace? Or can they just not talk on the radio?

/rant off
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This is a quote if your origunal post.

Where in here does it allude to your titile of people being afraid of class B ??
 
Got a great mix of controlled and uncontrolled when I started, so it all just seems like the big system that it is, to me. Doesn't bother me to go pretty much anywhere.

Grum.Man said:
As @eman1200 can confirm, I avoid communication at all cost. I don't mind talking in the pattern but I get nervous talking to controllers. I am always afraid I will do something wrong and get busted. At least approaching an uncontrolled field I already know the routine and traffic pattern versus a controller giving all kinds of random directions. I know my aircrafts performance and limitations so I can sequence my self better than most controllers can. I will go to any non controlled field over a controlled one any day.
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Couple of thoughts. They're not there to bust people and they don't want to do paperwork any more than you want to be busted. Trust me on this one. I've done a couple of incredibly stupid things and have had controllers let them slide, over many years. Filed a NASA report on myself, and moved on.

coloradobluesky said:
Ive had the tower "pull stuff" on me in Class B. I used to ask for a Class B clearance across the surface area to go to a small GA airport on the edge of Class B. They once cleared me and told me to "Fly to the tower". I flew to the tower and my destination (an airport right on the edge of the Class B) was maybe 5 miles away. He turned me towards it and with ANGER in his voice crowed "THERE IT IS!" (and I mean he DRILLED it).

My reply was "Well, thank you for your time, but if you dont want me in your Class B, why did you clear me into it?"

Go figure.....
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FTG?

midlifeflyer said:
My favorite Class B story. This was in the Denver Class B.

I was instructing, doing a student's dual night cross country. First leg was from KAPA south of Denver to KGXY, north of Denver. After leaving KGXY, we had a (simulated) engine problem and my student, after a couple of hints, said, "I want to go to D.I.A.."

So we did, ultimately asking for a stop and go on the KDEN runway. We didn't get to do the stop part due to traffic behind us. As we began the go-around, Tower asked if we still wanted a stop and go. I replied, "only if it's not a problem."

He replied, "Look out the right side. Will that work for you?" He had turned on the lights on a runway that was not being used that night!
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There's a new policy out (I'll have to find it) that they're going to make you taxi over to Signature or whatever now... no T&G and they want only traffic that's really DEN-bound.

Kinda sad. I always wanted to wander over there at night and squeak in a T&G like everyone else has, but apparently the airport management is not happy with that. They were already levying landing fees to slow it, but many of us would happily pay the $100 or whatever. I suspect they figured out that controllers weren't noting the tail numbers, and controllers told them it wasn't a primary part of their job and to go pound sand, so now they will accept only full stops and you'll have to taxi to the FBO. Which means not only the airport fees but the FBO ramp fees. Unless you know someone over at Signature who'll look the other way.

I'll try to find more info on it, but figured you'd like to know you now have a more unique experience than you thought. Not too many folks are going to pop for the cash to go over there anymore.

coloradobluesky said:
My landing at DIA was at night. They put me on a long final from the north and told me to make best speed and brought a United Flight and the guy was right next to me (parallel runways). Me going 120knots, almost as fast as I could. Him going 130 knots, about as slow as he could. I looked at him. He looked back. I landed and the runway had MIDDLE runway lights. My tailwheel went bump bump bump on them. I did a touch and go and took off and did a low pass right by the tower horizontal glass. Thanks Guys! we waved. They looked back too!
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You too. Neat memory.

I'll probably just crap the cash and go over there anyway some evening. Annoying that the airport management is so greedy over there. But then again, it's the City and County of Denver, and there's never been a fee or a tax to collect that the City didn't love. Just an extension of the hell hole in the middle of the city, slightly east of the real deal.
 
That would be unfortunate, Nate. A landing at DEN was pretty standard fare for night dual cross countries in the summer.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That would be unfortunate, Nate. A landing at DEN was pretty standard fare for night dual cross countries in the summer.
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Yeah, I checked on it today. The rule now is you must make a full stop and be taxied somewhere. Which means Signature. Signature fee is $45 plus city landing fee which I've heard is about $100.

Probably still go do it anyway, but kinda sucks.

Annnnd apparently it was someone "abusing" the whole privilege and ranting that it was a public use airport that caused the policy change. They'd show up constantly and want to do landings even during busy times.

Whatever point that idiot was making, apparently ruined it for everyone. City said fine... it's public use... you'll land and ground will taxi you to Signature and you'll pay their ramp fee... to stop whoever it was.

Argh. Beat head here... farging icehole. ;)

coloradobluesky said:
No it was the old airport that is gone now, right south on the edge of the surface area, Aurora Airpark.
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Ahh yup. I soloed there.

Just an overgrown weed field now. :(
 
I started flying in Eastern Nebr in the early 60's in a Luscombe, no radio and nobody to talk to unless you went to Omaha. Quit flying for a lot of years and started up again 4 yrs ago in Tucson (RYN) it was intimidating at first but the controllers at RYN are great. I have made a few forays into TUS 'C" airspace and it was not anywhere near as bad as I expected, very helpful. I have made some trips to uncontrolled places like Marana AVQ and it was enlightening, some people talk on the radio and some don't so now I am a lot more comfortable at controlled airports than not. Just my take.
 
Following radio calls and not screwing up is what made nervous on my first night cross country into a busy class C during training, still kinda does. This particular C had two runways but one was closed. Nothing like being squeezed in between multiple 737's and airbus's to get the old pucker factor up.
First time I heard the term maintain maximum forward speed. I looked over at my instructor and he said get close to Vne (174 knts), I was on somewhat long final which made things interesting too. I could hear the controller slowing other jets behind me. The flying part wasn't bad, was vectored a couple of times, but as I said screwing up directions would have caused problems in that situation and the thought of that was unnerving.
 
denverpilot said:
Yeah, I checked on it today. The rule now is you must make a full stop and be taxied somewhere. Which means Signature. Signature fee is $45 plus city landing fee which I've heard is about $100.

Probably still go do it anyway, but kinda sucks.

Annnnd apparently it was someone "abusing" the whole privilege and ranting that it was a public use airport that caused the policy change. They'd show up constantly and want to do landings even during busy times.

Whatever point that idiot was making, apparently ruined it for everyone. City said fine... it's public use... you'll land and ground will taxi you to Signature and you'll pay their ramp fee... to stop whoever it was.

Argh. Beat head here... farging icehole. ;)
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That sucks.
 
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