Why are people afraid of Class B?

[Bill Watson]

[QUOTE="denverpilot, post: 2318994,

I'll probably just crap the cash and go over there anyway some evening. Annoying that the airport management is so greedy over there. But then again, it's the City and County of Denver, and there's never been a fee or a tax to collect that the City didn't love. Just an extension of the hell hole in the middle of the city, slightly east of the real deal.[/QUOTE]
When I recently stubbed my toe at a Class B and was asked to call, I ended up having to talk to the local FSDO. They were exceptionally helpful and cooperative, possibly because I decided to be honest and forthright, but I was asked specifically about the purpose of my flight. In other words was this just flying around or was I using the airport for real travel reasons.

I explained it was for a medical appointment and the question was dropped.

Some may argue that it's none of the FAA' business and I would agree. But I think the general question is legitimate, particularly in the context of making a boo boo during a push.

To me, it's a privilege to be able to use 'the system' and its airports practically free of charge given that we are piggy backing on a resource in place primarily to support the public's transportation. As long as I'm using it for it's intended purpose, transportation, it's a privilege well exercised.

GeeWow T&Gs at midnight are cool but unneeded. Training and proficiency work can arguably be done elsewhere. I consider the unavailability of avgas or punitive landing fees a hint just as 3500' runways and the lack of JetA tends to discourage G5s


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[wayne]

They refuse admittance every time I ask. So, I just quit asking.

I can't remember the last time I was denied in either NY or BOS, but ATL is kinda notorious.

I do notice that if you don't sound with it on the radio, you aren't going in...

Those of us that often fly over ATL appreciate that they keep the riff-raff out.

 

[jordane93]

I fly into a lot of class B airports, but BOS is the only one I have ever seen where GA has to deal with the TSA.

I haven't been GA to BOS in a while but I thought it was just a Signature employee that has you go through their little security line. I don't remember seeing any TSA there.

 

[paflyer]

I fly into a lot of class B airports, but BOS is the only one I have ever seen where GA has to deal with the TSA.

Collective guilt over AAFlight 11 and UA Flight 175.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I haven't been GA to BOS in a while but I thought it was just a Signature employee that has you go through their little security line. I don't remember seeing any TSA there.

They aren't official TSA agents, but apparently the x-ray scanner and metal detector are TSA equipment. The person doing the screener is a contractor, I believe.

When the $80 charge showed up on the invoice it was for TSA screening.

Only FBO I have ever seen where passengers and their luggage go through screening.

 

[Doggtyred]

I had a lot of radio experience before I even started my PPL, so that part was a breeze. (It actually got me into trouble a few times during training, as I sounded too comfortable and controllers assumed I knew what I was doing better than I actually did!)

Same here.. I had years of Fire, EMS and dispatch for both under my belt. I trained out of a towered airport. I was in the veil of a Class B. I sat with my scanner and listened to tower, approach, and clearance for a while to understand WHAT they were saying, how they were saying it, and why... and when I did ANY xc, I did flight following, so I got used to listening for my call sign and dealing with approach and center.

 

[denverpilot]

To me, it's a privilege to be able to use 'the system' and its airports practically free of charge given that we are piggy backing on a resource in place primarily to support the public's transportation. As long as I'm using it for it's intended purpose, transportation, it's a privilege well exercised.

GeeWow T&Gs at midnight are cool but unneeded. Training and proficiency work can arguably be done elsewhere. I consider the unavailability of avgas or punitive landing fees a hint just as 3500' runways and the lack of JetA tends to discourage G5s

I don't think the PITA over at DEN was doing it at night. None of the controllers over there cared at all if folks came over at night for T&Gs after the place was quiet.

As far as it being a "privilege" to use an airport I definitely paid for (and continue to do so on every paycheck since I work inside the City & County and the City never met a tax they didn't like), that's plain silly. But I can see being courteous enough not to go over there during bank time. Me or anyone else wandering over at midnight isn't bothering the wheels of commerce over there. And the controller is sitting there in the chair getting paid, either way. Traffic or none.

 

[Kritchlow]

The question doesn't seem to be "why are people afraid of class B", but rather "why are people enthralled with class B?"

It's an airport. Period. It's a bit larger. End of story. ATC, although at times can be a bit faster, is still the same. Late at nignt I'm sure that's not much of an issue.

I only wish I could only land at slow airports.
It's a mystery why anyone wants to land ata busy B.

 

[Doggtyred]

The question doesn't seem to be "why are people afraid of class B", but rather "why are people enthralled with class B?"

It's an airport. Period. It's a bit larger. End of story. ATC, although at times can be a bit faster, is still the same. Late at nignt I'm sure that's not much of an issue.

I only wish I could only land at slow airports.
It's a mystery why anyone wants to land ata busy B.

Sometimes its where you need to go.... to pick someone up or drop them off... for reasons particular to them. Ive done it a few times.

 

[Kritchlow]

Sometimes its where you need to go.... to pick someone up or drop them off... for reasons particular to them. Ive done it a few times.

There are a few large airports that can get you closer to where you need to go, but very few.
Many PP's seem to try and prove a point that the can land at many large airports just because they can.
I don't get that.

 

[denverpilot]

There are a few large airports that can get you closer to where you need to go, but very few.
Many PP's seem to try and prove a point that the can land at many large airports just because they can.
I don't get that.

Hell we used to have a website here where folks were just working on landing at every airport in their State.

There doesn't really need to be a "reason" to do that. Just an excuse to go fly.

I doubt many are trying to "prove" anything at all. I know for sure the folks who've shared their late night T&G stories weren't. The place is big and in-between a lot of other airports. In the middle of the night, not having to detour around it, is a small plus. Might as well toss in a T&G on the way by.

For folks who aren't doing it for a job, seeing stuff like centerline lighting and runways you could make five T&Gs on, is kinda fun. Fills in part of a dream for them, perhaps.

Heck in this era the general public is floored when you tell them you don't need permission to fly somewhere in your airplane. They almost don't believe you. All those Free men and women who are so used to rules they are amazed that you're "just allowed to go anywhere in that thing?"

That last part is utterly sad. They're so indoctrinated into following someone's massive rule list for their lives, they immediately assume a "scary little airplane" pilot must have been told exactly where it could go and what it could do.

Very little adventurous spirit left in the masses. They think a zip line is high level thrills.

 

[Kritchlow]

Hell we used to have a website here where folks were just working on landing at every airport in their State.

There doesn't really need to be a "reason" to do that. Just an excuse to go fly.

I doubt many are trying to "prove" anything at all. I know for sure the folks who've shared their late night T&G stories weren't. The place is big and in-between a lot of other airports. In the middle of the night, not having to detour around it, is a small plus. Might as well toss in a T&G on the way by.

For folks who aren't doing it for a job, seeing stuff like centerline lighting and runways you could make five T&Gs on, is kinda fun. Fills in part of a dream for them, perhaps.

Heck in this era the general public is floored when you tell them you don't need permission to fly somewhere in your airplane. They almost don't believe you. All those Free men and women who are so used to rules they are amazed that you're "just allowed to go anywhere in that thing?"

That last part is utterly sad. They're so indoctrinated into following someone's massive rule list for their lives, they immediately assume a "scary little airplane" pilot must have been told exactly where it could go and what it could do.

Very little adventurous spirit left in the masses. They think a zip line is high level thrills.

Yowza... you may be able to publish that in a book of poetry. Very nice indeed...

But... from a practical standpoint it doesn't hold up.
I completely respect the right of anyone to land at DEN, especially if it's the most feasible airport to where you're going.
That said, DIA is in the middle of nowhere. Unless you're planning g a trip to the middle of nowhere, there is no way this airport is for you.

To land there "just because you can" is BS imo and truly gums up the works of commerce.

 

[denverpilot]

Yowza... you may be able to publish that in a book of poetry. Very nice indeed...

But... from a practical standpoint it doesn't hold up.
I completely respect the right of anyone to land at DEN, especially if it's the most feasible airport to where you're going.
That said, DIA is in the middle of nowhere. Unless you're planning g a trip to the middle of nowhere, there is no way this airport is for you.

To land there "just because you can" is BS imo and truly gums up the works of commerce.

No it really isn't "in the middle of nowhere". A flight from GXY to APA takes you right over the place. FNL to APA nearly so. BJC to FTG, too. Those are all pretty common local night training flights. The only way to really avoid DEN in the metro area is to go around it. Or go to COS.

And no, a midnight T&G isn't gumming up jack crap. The only carrier that even flies consistent red eyes out of DEN after midnight, is Frontier. The place is a ghost town that late. The TRACON collapses the high and low sectors down to two controllers. You can talk to all whopping both of them by doing any of those above mentioned flights with flight following that late at night.

The airlines are more inconvenienced by the location of FTG on hot days when they're departing east, and trying to turn southwest and can't climb well enough to clear the FTG Delta on a more regular basis than any midnight Cessna is causing over there.

Denver is still a cow town that rolls up the sidewalks at midnight. Heck the referendum to let bars stay open later, went down in flames last year.

There's three aircraft in the pattern at DEN right now, a twin headed for FTG, and the Sheriff's helicopter is south of the airport in the Bravo. I think the galant tower local controller can probably handle it.

 

[Kritchlow]

No it really isn't "in the middle of nowhere". A flight from GXY to APA takes you right over the place. FNL to APA nearly so. BJC to FTG, too. Those are all pretty common local night training flights. The only way to really avoid DEN in the metro area is to go around it. Or go to COS.

And no, a midnight T&G isn't gumming up jack crap. The only carrier that even flies consistent red eyes out of DEN after midnight, is Frontier. The place is a ghost town that late. The TRACON collapses the high and low sectors down to two controllers. You can talk to all whopping both of them by doing any of those above mentioned flights with flight following that late at night.

The airlines are more inconvenienced by the location of FTG on hot days when they're departing east, and trying to turn southwest and can't climb well enough to clear the FTG Delta on a more regular basis than any midnight Cessna is causing over there.

Denver is still a cow town that rolls up the sidewalks at midnight. Heck the referendum to let bars stay open later, went down in flames last year.

There's three aircraft in the pattern at DEN right now, a twin headed for FTG, and the Sheriff's helicopter is south of the airport in the Bravo. I think the galant tower local controller can probably handle it.

Well, it's way out there. Middle of nowhere can be interpreted differently.
For me a 15 minute drive through "nothing" down Peña blvd is boring... other than the scary red-eyed horsey thingy.....

 

[Kritchlow]

Have at it landing there, but I still don't see the attraction.
I'd rather go to APA any day if the week.

 

[Doggtyred]

There are a few large airports that can get you closer to where you need to go, but very few.
Many PP's seem to try and prove a point that the can land at many large airports just because they can.
I don't get that.

For example... I live in the Houston Terminal area... In January 2004 a friend of mine came to stay in my coastal residence (rather than a hotel) while he got his multi training. At the time there was an offshore pipeline patrol outfit in Galveston that let students earn their ME rating add-on/build hours while being instructed flying along their offshore routes.

However, the Superbowl was in Houston for the first weekend of his two week training affair (three weekends total - start, mid and end). There was not a rentacar to be found in the region for less than a gazillion dollars and being the poor guy that he was, he changed his first leg and flew into DFW, rented a cheap rental car there and drove 5 hours to my house. Trying to save the guy some time when it was time to go home, AFTER the superbowl was no longer a factor, he drove his rental back up to DFW on his middle weekend off. I flew up to Love field in a Cardinal RG, got my own car, drove over to DFW and picked him up, then went and had dinner with a mutual buddy flying Falcons for Cherry Air out of Addison (FedEx or UPS feeder at the time) and then went back to Love to fly home.

His departure home the next weekend was out of IAH, so.. I dropped him off at IAH, had the shuttle at the corporate FBO run him to the rental outfit for him to get a car, and I flew on home where he met me. It was 10pm. The field was deserted. But I landed a 4 seat piston airplane at IAH because it was operationally expedient to do so, and I was comfortable with the operation. I did NOT go into DFW because I didn't know the timing of the push, and frankly, we had dinner plans, and I was comfortable and quite familiar with the FBO I used at Love.

"Just because I can" was a small factor, but not the primary or deciding factor in choosing to land at KIAH. Another time, I landed at St Louis Lambert enroute to OSH. It was closest to dinner that night, and convenient for downtown. We were routed to a small runway (no longer operational) that wasn't part of the airliners operations and we were out of the way and no factor to anyone. That was 2002.

I think those are the only two times ever for me. I prefer to fly to where I am going. If thats the reliever field or the rural strip near my destination, then awesome. Sometimes, its reasonable and cost effective to land at the big place, with the big boys. Rarely, but sometimes. I will never be the guy who says "I'm gonna do a touch and go in the middle of the push because I can".. those guys are jack-asses...

 

[denverpilot]

Well, it's way out there. Middle of nowhere can be interpreted differently.
For me a 15 minute drive through "nothing" down Peña blvd is boring... other than the scary red-eyed horsey thingy.....

It's mostly situated where it maximized the amount of Peña family land that had to be purchased to build it. LOL.

That horse has killed one man. Never know what it might do.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Well, it's way out there. Middle of nowhere can be interpreted differently.
For me a 15 minute drive through "nothing" down Peña blvd is boring... other than the scary red-eyed horsey thingy.....

DIA is in the middle of nowhere if you're trying to drive to it from Denver/front range. I'd probably say it's situated fairly well amongst the other airports in the region though, so it seems that the definition of "nowhere" depends on the mode of transportation you were using to get there, lol. The toll charge for E-470 certainly reminds you that you're going "somewhere"! The University of Oklahoma has a slightly smaller-scale version of the Blue Mustang statue located outside it's art museum, and I always though it was awesome at night. Ours didn't kill the artist though, so no local folklore to be had.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I only wish I could only land at slow airports.
It's a mystery why anyone wants to land ata busy B.

There are ups and downs to both controlled and I controlled.

I honestly prefer controlled airports (whether B, C or D) over uncontrolled for the fact that it keeps the riffraff down.

I'm more comfortable working with ATC to get sequenced than wondering what some yahoo is going to do at a non-towered airport.

That doesn't mean I avoid uncontrolled fields (I am based at one), but if I'm IFR, I much prefer bigger airports.

 

[denverpilot]

For completeness on this thread...

- DEN landing fee is $40. Not $100.
- Signature collects the landing fee. Thus the new rule that you must full-stop and taxi to Signature.
- Signature often forgets to collect it. (LOL.)
- Signature charges a ramp fee that's waived if you buy 10 gallons of fuel at $7/gal.

All info from someone who was over there within the last week. There ya go...

Ping @midlifeflyer ...

So all in, $110 to go to DEN in a light aircraft.

 

[Palmpilot]

...Signature charges a ramp fee that's waived if you buy 10 gallons of fuel at $7/gal.

All info from someone who was over there within the last week. There ya go...

Ping @midlifeflyer ...

So all in, $110 to go to DEN in a light aircraft.

I would subtract the normal cost of 10 gallons of fuel from that $110, because only the above-average portion of the fuel cost is attributable to the decision to land there.

 

[denverpilot]

I would subtract the normal cost of 10 gallons of fuel from that $110, because only the above-average portion of the fuel cost is attributable to the decision to land there.

Fair assessment, but I did say "all-in"... you aren't getting out the door without $110 paid, whether you got some marginal use out of the $7/gal AvGas or not. And of course, you do. Most of the local airports are about $5/gal or just under, so it's a difference of $20.

 

[Palmpilot]

Fair assessment, but I did say "all-in"... you aren't getting out the door without $110 paid, whether you got some marginal use out of the $7/gal AvGas or not. And of course, you do. Most of the local airports are about $5/gal or just under, so it's a difference of $20.

So, subtracting the normal fuel cost, the amount attributable to picking DEN as the destination would be $110 - $50, i.e. $60.

 

[denverpilot]

So, subtracting the normal fuel cost, the amount attributable to picking DEN as the destination would be $110 - $50, i.e. $60.

Right. I was only showing the fuel difference. The landing tax is just Euro-style aviation user fees.

 

[Richman67]

Not all Class B's are created equal (goes for Cs and Ds as well).

The ORD Class B probably is a different experience than the MSY Class B.

 

[Todd82]

Comparison sakes... The ghostland PIT class B, I inquired landing there for their air show a month or two ago in a PA28.

Ramp/facility fee waived for non-commercial single engine pistons regardless of fuel purchase.

$6.80 landing fee, non waivable (to the airport authority I'm assuming)

$20 if you overnight

But of course the fuel is $7+

Unlike Denver, in the case of Pittsburgh the airport is situated in a built up suburban office park area, and alot of business would be more convenient to PIT than AGC (though AGC is definitely better for "dahntahn" as us natives would say).

For a bigger Class C I also recently looked into dropping off the wife to catch an airline flight at CMH. $55 handling fee that can be waived with 10+ gallons of $6.35 (at that time) 100LL + another $5 unwaivable infrastructure fee. So basically you're not leaving for under $60 out of pocket.

At least with Columbus you've got multiple other GA friendly options if you're just coming into town.

 

[denverpilot]

Unlike Denver, in the case of Pittsburgh the airport is situated in a built up suburban office park area, and alot of business would be more convenient to PIT than AGC (though AGC is definitely better for "dahntahn" as us natives would say).

Just for completeness sake, DEN is also being surrounded by business parks, and housing, and a number of businesses want nothing to do with locating in Downtown proper.

I figure it'll take about ten years for the urban crud of cardboard shoebox houses to ooze over the remaining two ridgelines to my house which is slightly east of an east/west line drawn through the center of DEN.

We've already seen the ridgeline closest to town completely covered with shoeboxes in the four years we've been out here. That ridgeline is essentially on that north-south DEN centerline.

 

[somorris]

We are based under Memphis Class B. The MEM controllers are great and very helpful. I think the main reason people are hesitant about Class B (or any other controlled airspace) is just lack of familiarity.

 

[Bill Watson]

Back in the day, KPIT was in the middle of no where and as strange as it sounds now, there was more Pgh around KAGC. All of that commercial development followed the airport and the airport seems to have been located based on the scarcity of flat ground and the availability of strip mine waste and fill. It's grown up quite a bit since then.

I learned to fly at KAGC and find myself flying in there once or twice a month with an occasional flight into KPIT. It used to be that the worst part of using KAGC to get downtown was driving through the Southside, Hazelwood or Homestead; all devastated mill communities. Now at least the Southside is bustling and the river views pleasant (people actually boat in the Mon!). Of course all that pales in comparison to entering the 'burgh thru the Ft Pitt tunnel and over the bridge... at night.

Anyway, I find KAC's Corporate Air a friendly and well run 24/7 FBO that is perfect for my trips. I spend my $80-120 to fill up even though I'd rather buy it at home, and I get exactly what I want at a reasonable price.

KPIT does a fine job as well at a somewhat higher price but I have no problem paying a premium when I need the access to the premium location. And I have no problem with the Class B... I think KRDU's Class C is busier, KCLT's Class B certainly is.

I hope we don't end up looking back nostalgically to the days when we only had to pay ramp fees and the occasional landing fee instead of getting charged for each practice RNAV approach to a miss.






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[danhagan]

Have a lot of flight hours and don't mind the radio work at all, but I prefer uncontrolled fields. I can remember thinking hundreds of times controllers making things more difficult than necessary based on light traffic load and if they weren't in the way, the pilots would've handled it better. Yes, there are some pilots that cause close calls in the uncontrolled setting, but in my area they're pretty decent.

I avoided Phoenix class B by flying under it all the time. Using flight following from Tucson I've talked to Phoenix approach until they release me to Class D and can attest that they can be some of the grouchiest controllers on the planet.

I've travelled to California and Phoenix many times and second that ... I've had them ask if they can vector me for their inbounds, I make the turn for them, and 5 minutes later they want me to squawk VFR as I'm "out of their area" ... uh, I'm FF Texas to California. Then have to re-establish with ABQ Center and they say the PHX controllers do that ALL the time to FF transients.

 

[Goofy]

I've travelled to California and Phoenix many times and second that ... I've had them ask if they can vector me for their inbounds, I make the turn for them, and 5 minutes later they want me to squawk VFR as I'm "out of their area" ... uh, I'm FF Texas to California. Then have to re-establish with ABQ Center and they say the PHX controllers do that ALL the time to FF transients.

Seems some are great, some are jerks. Bet the jerks aren't pilots.
San Diego, New York and Seattle have always been great. All 3 cleared me to descend thru B without asking! SFO and LA, total jerks.

 

[danhagan]

Seems some are great, some are jerks. Bet the jerks aren't pilots.
San Diego, New York and Seattle have always been great. All 3 cleared me to descend thru B without asking! SFO and LA, total jerks.

I understand some Class B's being so busy they really can't handle allowing transitions. OTOH, PHX has only an east-west configuration with ABQ center lining all the arrivals up 50 miles out. How hard can it be for them?

PHX: continue straight in approach, you're following company.
PHX: VFR Flib cross midfield at or above xxxx MSL

 

[asicer]

Seems some are great, some are jerks. Bet the jerks aren't pilots.
San Diego, New York and Seattle have always been great. All 3 cleared me to descend thru B without asking! SFO and LA, total jerks.

SFO and LAX are overlying multiple Charlie's. SAN, SEA and NY don't overlay any Charlie's.

 

[OkieFlyer]

I'm one of those guys who would be apprehensive about Class B. I use FF on most XC flights, so I don't think I'd have any reservations about transitioning a Bravo, but I do believe I would avoid landing at one unless it was extremely more convenient than a smaller airport. I'm not sure I'd say I'm scared of it, but it is definitely unfamiliar territory for me. In 6 years of flying, I think I've been to maybe 4-5 Class D airports and 1 Class C. All others were uncontrolled airports. I've just rarely had any need to go into towered fields.

Just remember that there many of us who don't regularly have need of large airports, and to truly become comfortable with them would involve deliberate trips to one just to practice. Many of us just don't have the desire to burn the gas and spend the time to do that regularly enough for it to matter. I don't mind Class D though. They are usually pretty laid back and talk slower. The Class C in OKC is probably less busy than the two nearby class Ds actually, but I never have any reason to go there.

I can say that I've never witnessed anything close to a near miss at an uncontrolled field. I can also say that I've had one close call at a towered field, and both parties were where the controller told them to be. I believe that it would not have happened if the field had been pilot controlled. See and avoid probably saved 3 souls that day. I prefer fields that aren't busy enough to need a controller if it's not too inconvenient.

 

[denverpilot]

Sequencing planes with hundreds of souls on board that have to slow down to 250 knots is a slightly bigger deal than sequencing Skyhawks putting around at 120.

Umm. Not really.

If you don't use altitude separation at all, pointing one plane at the other's tail maintains the same separation if they're doing the same speed. The timing game is closure rate, and angle to intercept, not aircraft total speed.

Doesn't matter how many souls are on board. They're not allowed to touch whether there's one person or 300 people in them.

 

[TRocket]

To me it doesn't matter much either way, I have flown into extremely busy uncontrolled fields and towered fields with nothing going on. I've never landed at a Class B airport but fly out of an airport just under the CLT bravo. I usually get flight following and usually get the "remain outside class Bravo", unless IFR then that is a different story. (They will send me over the top if headed west, "Climb and maintain 5,000, expedite". "Ten four, we will put on the after burners in the Cherokee"). I did however a couple of months ago get a controler tell me when he gave me a VFR squak code, "Clear into the Bravo if you hit it"

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

I'm more than happy to fly over, under or around Class B airspace, and if I want to go a little more quickly to, say, Santa Barbara, the SFRA right over LAX works wonderfully. Part of the fun in this relatively complex area is planning it out, changing altitude to avoid shelves, etc. 95 percent of the time I'm doing a leisurely breakfast run somewhere, and a few extra miles just makes these enjoyable flights last longer. More time to cook any moisture out of the oil, too.

Oshkosh looms. Not too much Bravo or Charlie to deal with when flying across the Midwest.

 

[denverpilot]

That's exactly what I said. Hard to see a Skyhawk flying the same speed as a heavy airliner.

But easy for a controller to know the speed difference and do the spatial math in their head. That's what they do all day long.

It's not the separation inside the Bravo that's difficult. It's separation when lining up aircraft to land on the same runway that is. Bravo is just controlled airspace like any other. There's always a mix of traffic. They can handle mixing a Caravan into a rush, it isn't a problem.

Even a bad controller can keep a Skyhawk and an Airbus from trading paint. A good controller can shoot the Skyhawk in front of the Airbus and know the Skyhawk will easily be off by the first taxiway with four miles of closure to spare for the Airbus.

Assuming the pilot of the Skyhawk can listen to and follow instructions, anyway. That... is often a question mark. "Fly heading XXX" means now, not next week. Listen up, answer up, and do... usually makes Bravo clearances and transitions easy. Speak up if unable or a command becomes dangerous. Pretty easy.

Someone who misses calls, doesn't sound confident in readbacks or who doesn't execute them immediately is the big red flag for controllers. They worry that you'll miss an important one for timing purposes. With a controller you ARE your voice and your flight changes on his screen.

(Someone mentioned in this thread or another that they wandered up and down +-150 with a tight clearance between a Delta below and a Bravo above. That isn't going to cut it. Fly THE altitude the controller asked for. Not a series of altitudes above and below it. They see that.)

Someone calling up with a succinct request, who knows where they are exactly, and follows up with accurate responses and actions, rarely becomes a problem child for the controller. They'll just work you into their mental traffic picture like anyone else. They'll tell you if they can't. (Never met a timid controller! haha.)

Mumble, sound confused, answer everything with raising end inflection like it's a question hinting you don't understand, or worse, don't do what's asked... that is how you get vectored to Timbuktu or the dreaded "Radar service terminated, Squawk VFR."

Most CFIs could take any pilot out to somewhere away from controlled airspace and simulate ATC commands to make them feel more confident. One of the DPEs here recommends that all cockpit commands where possible during training be done in "ATC format and phraseology". This makes it a zero transition thing for the pilot to switch from listening to their instructor to listening to ATC.

(The downside is, and he talks about this, too... is the instructor had probably better at least once simulate giving the PIC a bad or dangerous command and seeing if they question it. The first time they can hint, "What would you say if the controller told you this right now..." Later, the candidate has to catch it on their own.)

Bravo transitions or even landing at the airport, shouldn't be feared. The skillset required should already have been practiced. "Cessna 123, turn right heading 320, descend and maintain 8000" shouldn't be anything new after two or three flights with an instructor.

The other thing to hint at newer pilots about: Controllers tend to control. When you hear a controller quizzing YOU, it's a big hint that you're doing something they consider "weird" or even dangerous.

"Cessna 123, I show an area of moderate precipitation from your 11 o'clock to 3 o'clock, five miles. Say intentions?"

They rarely ask questions unless they're concerned about something you asked to do.

Obviously, "Cessna 123, how is your ride?" isn't usually that sort of prompt. But that other one sure is. If they're asking something, think hard about why. It's a "wake up crazy pilot!" hint, usually.

 

[TRocket]

It's a good thing. Anyone without a hazardous attitude will use it as an opportunity to seek more training, else stay clear.

Better consult the "I'm Safe" model...

 

[TRocket]

IMSAFE doesn't mention class B operations. Neither did the PTS. Pretty sure the ACS doesn't, either.

Avoiding areas you're not comfortable flying in/around is a perfectly safe practice.

Telling people they shouldn't be intimidated creates resentment amongst people who need to come forward and ask for help.

First and foremost, No disrespect, but clearly sarcasm is not a language you are fluent in....

Secondly, nothing wrong with asking for help at all, I encourage it in any situation, but avoiding things outside of your comfort zone will get you in now where in aviation or in life. Telling people to not be intimidated is called encouragement, the opposite is just foolishness.