When is entry completed?

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Dave S., Jul 20, 2021.

  1. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-takeoff checklist

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    When arriving at a holding fix with intentions to hold you will use one of the three entry maneuvers, teardrop, parallel, or direct. In each case the entry maneuver begins when crossing the fix. And, we can say that since each has a beginning point each will also have a completion point, ie, the point where the entry maneuver ends.

    The direct entry begins when arriving at the fix. When is the direct entry maneuver completed? Stated a different way...when are you in the holding pattern after arriving at the fix the first time when using a direct entry? The answer is “when the direct entry is completed”. (As It is with the other two entry maneuvers).

    the question is when or where is that when using a direct entry? When is it finished?

    tex
     
  2. Arob16

    Arob16 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I’d say the direct entry is finished once you cross the fix and enter the first turn. Is this a trick question.
     
  3. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    You’re in the holding pattern when you cross the fix and begin your direct/teardrop/parallel entry. The entry is part of the holding pattern.
     
  4. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Sounds like you are talking about a test question when you said “The answer is “when the direct entry is completed”. (As It is with the other two entry maneuvers).” What exactly was the question?
     
  5. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah. You are within the Holding Pattern airspace when you first begin and fly the ‘entry.’ I don’t think that is what he is wondering about though.
     
  6. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    I agree that’s not what he’s wondering, but I’m not sure what he’s wondering actually exists. ;)

    clarification would help.
     
  7. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    For a HILPT the AIM says this 5-4-9.a.5:

    The holding pattern maneuver is completed when the aircraft is established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry. If cleared for the approach prior to returning to the holding fix, and the aircraft is at the prescribed altitude, additional circuits of the holding pattern are not necessary nor expected by ATC. If pilots elect to make additional circuits to lose excessive altitude or to become better established on course, it is their responsibility to so advise ATC upon receipt of their approach clearance.​
     
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  8. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    While we’re waiting, let’s play with it. In his example of first arriving at the fix on the inbound course, it would kinda seem like you are done with the ‘entry’ before it even starts. But it takes a complete trip around to figure out the timing for the outbound to get the one minute inbound leg needed. Not a thing of course for RNAV/DME holding
     
  9. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think the only time you would worry about this is to call ATC to report the hold. Another case of FAA question writers trying to be slick and confusing people. When asked to report established in the hold, I call when I first cross the fix. I consider myself not holding any more when cleared for the approach or given a clearance that takes me out of the hold.
     
  10. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    On the other hand, the FAA let’s us count it as a complete hold for checkride purposes once they cross the fix the second time, regardless of entry type.

    And I've always argued that a parallel entry actually required two entries…a parallel and a teardrop. ;)
     
  11. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, the HILPT thang, where you weren’t actually given ‘holding’ but just doing the course reversal might be what it is be about. But I don’t think so
     
  12. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah. If someone waited until after doing a trip around with th entry and waited until their second crossing of the fix to make the report to ATC, that would just be wrong.
     
  13. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    The "entry" is instantaneous and completed as soon as you cross the fix. You are now in the hold. Entry complete.
     
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  14. sarangan

    sarangan Cleared for Takeoff

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    The way I read it, the key phrase in the AIM is "established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry". You need to be on the inbound AFTER executing the entry, not before. In the teardrop and parallel entries, the inbound leg occurs immediately after the entry, but in the direct entry, the inbound leg will be behind you as soon as you complete the entry. That means you would need to do one lap around to call it a hold. That's just my reading of it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
  15. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    paragraph # ?
     
  16. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    The entry is complete when you intercept the inbound course.
     
  17. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-takeoff checklist

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    what I meant by that is that the answer, whatever it turns out to be, will have the following characteristic, that is, when the maneuver is completed, whenever that is. That’s the question, when can it be said that the direct entry maneuver is completed as an entry maneuver?

    The reason for the question is because I hear many pilots state that the direct entry is an instantaneous event. They say it begins at the arrival at the fix but that you are immediately in the holding pattern. In other words, you “directly” enter the hold.

    I’m curious what others say.

    tex
     
  18. sarangan

    sarangan Cleared for Takeoff

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    AIM 5-4-9(a)(5), sixth sentence of that paragraph.
     
  19. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Ah. That is in the Procedure Turn and Hold-in-lieu of Procedure Turn paragraph. I was racking my brain trying to find it in 5-3-8., Holding.
     
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  20. sarangan

    sarangan Cleared for Takeoff

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    Oh, yes, you are right. But I don't think that definition only applies to HILPT.
     
  21. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Just so I’m clear, you’re asking a question whose answer has no practical application?

    (not that I have any problem with that…anything that enhances your understanding is good.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
  22. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    A better question might be, "When might it matter?"

    For reporting, you report "upon" reaching and "upon" leaving the holding fix/clearance limit (AIM 5-3-3a.1.) not "after executing" the entry or before leaving the fix for the last time.

    For compliance with a HILPT, as stated above, no additional circuits are expected once cleared for the approach prior to returning to the fix, regardless, apparently, of whether you're " established on the inbound course yet or not. So, if you need to make another lap, let 'em know.
     
  23. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah. The HILPT reference is as good an explanation as you're going to seem to find in a document.
     
  24. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Well, since the direct entry completion point is defined in the HILOPT paragraph and since the context of that paragraph is entry into "A" holding pattern which happens incidently to be used for a HILO, then that should suffice for the definition in general holding also, especially considering that the result of entry into a HILO could also result in actual holding at that fix if ATC decides to keep you there.

    tex
     
  25. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    WAG: Literally the only practical application I can think of is responding to the odd ATC to "report established in the hold." Working backwards (and in circles), you are established when the entry is completed. When is the direct entry completed? When you are established in the hold :D

    This sounds like a pin dance but IMO the best answer I've seen is from @sarangan, not because references the AIM but because it makes sense. First you have to get to the holding fix from where you are. That's not part of the hold. It may be aligned with the inbound (or it may not) but it's just a course to a waypoint. Chances are, you were going there anyway.

    The "entry" is the initial turn outbound after getting there. Direct, parallel, teardrop, 360, figure 8, inverted, the the first turn after reaching the holding fix is a turn outbound.

    The "entry" is finished once you are "established" inbound by whatever definition of "established" you happen to like. Doesn't matter.

    And yeah, I have no idea what the question is about either.
     
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  26. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I explained that I am interested in what other pilots think about different subjects. This week it’s direct entry patterns and what exactly is the end of the maneuver.

    when I teach I get all kinds of answers from students who say “ I was told...” this or that and I wonder what others think.

    Maybe keeping this a little more friendly would make for a more interesting discussion.

    tex
     
  27. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Short of doing an imitation of Dana Carvey’s Church Lady, how could this get more friendly?
     
  28. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What got confusing for me was the typical ATC instruction IIRC is "report established in the hold".
     
  29. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    I don't mean to explain anything which isn't already understood, but for the purposes of clarity: one is established immediately upon crossing the holding fix the first time; the type of entry is inconsequential.
     
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  30. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Agreed. You worded it perfectly, but that’s my point.
     
  31. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I've been having word game fun based on the question, and I don't disagree, but I have to ask. Do you have an official reference for that?
     
  32. DogoPilot

    DogoPilot Pre-Flight

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    I think the issue is that you haven't provided any context prior to this post regarding where the question is coming from. Since there seems to be no practical reason to know the answer to the question, I think there is a sincere curiosity into the background of the question in order to attempt to answer it in a meaningful way.

    That's my take anyway.
     
  33. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    You don't need an official reference. Unlike procedure turns, holding patterns don't have entry and maneuvering zones. In fact, holding pattern criteria were developed for departure, en route, and arrival holding. Subsequently, the identical holding pattern criteria were adopted by the FAA TERPs staff to be used as the course-reversal initial approach segment in lieu of the standard procedure turn. Holding pattern criteria were "owned" by Air Traffic in those days. (I was at the meeting in OKC where Air Traffic yielded the criteria to Flight Standards, but that is a whole different story.)
     
  34. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Of course not. But @Ryan F. was so definitive in his statement, I figured there must be something official out there other than a personal viewpoint.
     
  35. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    "What is the purpose of a holding fix?" is not a viewpoint.
     
  36. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    True. But "when are you established?" is, unless there is official guidance somewhere.
     
  37. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    I appreciate that it's a word exercise, but it's not a viewpoint or a personal opinion I hold. The boring answer is that it's definitive by default. I have personally never heard a controller state "report established in the hold" and I'm not sure it's even correct phraseology (review the P/CG on this topic and you'll not find mention of this phrase), but even if stated, "established" in a procedure which involves turns, periodic course tracking, possible airspeed changes, etc. starts when the procedure is initiated. The holding procedure is, per its name, a procedure. Arriving at the holding fix is in effect "inhibiting" the pilot's flight plan from sequencing to the next waypoint in ATC's eyes. Once you cross the fix, you're holding. The type of entry being performed is part of the holding procedure and is not a relevant part of becoming "established" in ATC's eyes.
     
  38. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    I guess the next question would be, where does the word “established” come from in this context? Is it official, or is it misapplied from another context?
     
  39. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Beats me. I'm pretty sure there is no standard "report established" instruction in the ATC handbook. The AIM guidance of mandatory reports for holds are entering and leaving, which I guess is a good enough argument for "established" meaning "immediately upon entering". In a practical sense, "report established" may just be ATCs way of saying they are really interested in that report, especially since lots of pilots don't bother in a radar environment.

    OTOH, the term "established" is found throughout FAA publications with its standard P/CG definition, "To be stable or fixed at an altitude or on a course, route, route segment, heading, instrument approach or departure procedure, etc." In that case, we've all seen pilots who are never "established" in a hold :D
     
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  40. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I concur. Holding instructions should go like this. Cleared to FFIXX, hold West [as published, or detailed holding instructions], report FFIXX. When you get to and report FFIXX, you're in holding. I don't remember 'report established' from when I was working and I don't see it in current ATC directives.