What's next after Commercial?

[MacFlier]

So I recently got my Commercial and I already have an instrument rating. I'm contemplating what's next. To be clear, I do have a career outside of aviation, so I'm not going to the airlines (50 years old).
However, I may want to do something in aviation as a retirement gig.
I'd like to see what you all think about what cert/rating to get next. My last DPE insisted I should get CFI then CFII, but I was originally thinking about AMEL before CFI. That way I could also do right seat on a turboprop or small jet.
I currently have 400 TT.

Thoughts?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Like you I too got the commercial. My next move was going to be multi….but I since lost interest and realized I’m not going to use that. I once was going to fly as a career and now my career is set and I not doing that. I don’t see myself purchasing a twin….I currently have a Bonanza that meets all my flying needs.

So, what kind of flying do you see yourself doing? If there is an interest and you have the finances…go for it.

 

[frfly172]

I would get the multi .that way you can do some charter work.

 

[Brad W]

seems like multi is "speaking to you", and teaching is not. Listen to your gut.

 

[mandm]

CFI has to be renewed via taking some class every 2 years IIRC.

I went for the multi and I’d recommend doing that as well, and a seaplane rating.

 

[texasclouds]

Glider!

 

[dbahn]

With 400 hours you may find that you're going to need more TT to do a lot of the jobs you might be contemplating, so it depends on your budget and your realistic expectations by retirement time. A CFI rating can really help build time, and you'll actually learn a lot as a CFI, or at least expand your understanding of what you think you already know.

 

[MacFlier]

Answering some of the questions:

- I like flying both VFR and IFR, especially going places (I'm not a fan of aerobatics or backcountry flying)
- Having to renew the CFI rating is not an issue for me. The key aspect is that, after flying with not-so-great pilots, I thought CFII would be much less stressful... so primary training is not too attractive.
- Agree on TT. I think I'd need at least 500 TT to get my foot in the door and a good way is thru CFI. That said, I don't mind getting the last 100 hrs by getting multi and flying family and Angel Flight missions.
- I don't intend to buy a twin (unless an awesome opportunity for partnership comes along), so multi would be strictly to fly for-hire later.
- I thought about seaplane rating... but I'm in north Texas, so there are some lakes here but sea is kinda far away... I thought the usefulness of the rating would be pretty low unless I moved to Alaska or something like that.

 

[schmookeeg]

Both paths can open you to unforeseen opportunities.

Multi can be done in a weekend. CFI is gonna take a month.

I have gotten WAY more "oh hey can you..." flights from the CFI vs the ME. ME is constrained by insurance and time in make/model or type these days, and nobody is seeking that dude with 6.4 in a Seminole

 

[MauleSkinner]

and nobody is seeking that dude with 6.4 in a Seminole

Yeah, but once you break the 6.5 barrier…

 

[Zeldman]

A single engine commercial ticket is pretty much useless by itself, unless you married the owners daughter. Of course there are single engine jobs like jump planes, crop dusting, banner towing...

No one will hire a required right seater at 400 hours unless you married the owners daughter. Or unless they just need meat in the seat, at which point ''gear up, gear down'' gets tiring.

No one will spend money to train a part time right seater for a small jet or turbo prop unless you married...well, you get the picture.

Expect to move to where the commercial jobs are.

Multi commercial will open more doors, as will 135 IFR minimums. (1,200 hours, 500 hours cross-country, 100 hours night, and 75 hours of actual or simulated instrument time at least 50 hours of which were in actual flight...)

(Of course there are exceptional folks that got jobs with a single engine commercial just as I described in the first 3 lines above...)

A CFI rating can really help build time, and you'll actually learn a lot as a CFI, or at least expand your understanding of what you think you already know.

^^^this^^^

As long as you live in an area that offers flight instruction you can stay in your current locale, not to mention the invaluable education you will attain by having students trying to kill you... Plus making invaluable contacts with folks that hire pilots, or know folks that hire. Of course working the line can make the same contacts.

CFIs are pretty much in demand right now, especially someone that has no plans to either move away or move up.

 

[MacFlier]

A single engine commercial ticket is pretty much useless by itself, unless you married the owners daughter. Of course there are single engine jobs like jump planes, crop dusting, banner towing...

No one will hire a required right seater at 400 hours unless you married the owners daughter. Or unless they just need meat in the seat, at which point ''gear up, gear down'' gets tiring.

No one will spend money to train a part time right seater for a small jet or turbo prop unless you married...well, you get the picture.

Expect to move to where the commercial jobs are.

Multi commercial will open more doors, as will 135 IFR minimums. (1,200 hours, 500 hours cross-country, 100 hours night, and 75 hours of actual or simulated instrument time at least 50 hours of which were in actual flight...)

(Of course there are exceptional folks that got jobs with a single engine commercial just as I described in the first 3 lines above...)



^^^this^^^

As long as you live in an area that offers flight instruction you can stay in your current locale, not to mention the invaluable education you will attain by having students trying to kill you... Plus making invaluable contacts with folks that hire pilots, or know folks that hire. Of course working the line can make the same contacts.

CFIs are pretty much in demand right now, especially someone that has no plans to either move away or move up.

It feels like both are important (multi and cfi) but the 64k question is: which one is better to pursue first? Currently, I'm inclined to get the multi on a week off work, in one of those courses where you train for a week and do the check ride on the weekend, then pursue the CFI after as that is going to take a lot more time for me.

 

[schmookeeg]

I did ME first because I tend to do things in bursts -- and ME was a prerequisite for MEI, and I did all 3 of my instructor ratings in one giant YAWP of training and flying. If you're like that too, then the ME makes sense.

Frankly the ME is more easily attained, cheaper, way less commitment, and more fun. I can't think of a reason not to do it first.

 

[Zeldman]

Currently, I'm inclined to get the multi on a week off work, in one of those courses where you train for a week and do the check ride on the weekend, then pursue the CFI after as that is going to take a lot more time for me.

This sounds like a sound plan to me. Be sure to get your legs in shape since learning to fly a twin involves a lot of single engine work.!!

If you are going all the way, you might think about doing the CFII in a twin and get the MEI and CFII at the same time to hopefully save money.

 

[Pinecone]

Pick one and just do it. And remember, down the road, adding a rating counts as a Flight Review. So adding Glider or Multi or CFI and you are good for 2 more years. And you can have fun and learn some new skills. I got my ASES a LONG time ago. I have not flown one since, but it was a lot of fun and gave me some more skills.

Also, getting another CFI rating renews them. So get your CFI. 2 years later add your CFII. Two years later, add your MEI. Two years later, add your CFIG.

If you are not going to buy a multi, you are probably not going to do a lot of time building in them, as very few places rent them without an instructor. And you need 5 hours PIC in the make and model multi to instruct in it.

 

[MacFlier]

I like your suggestion @Pinecone . Maybe a good plan would be this route: Multi -> CFI -> CFII -> MEI. It should allow me to build hours towards a right seat somewhere while CFI'ng.
Glider is definitely something I was considering, but ASES not so much.
I was also considering AGI and IGI, just for fun but also to make a buck here and there thru in-person or zoom. Would that be useful?

 

[schmookeeg]

I did AGI and IGI solely to lock up my FOI exam pass, in case I got hit by a bus before finishing CFI Initial. That exam is terribad. The exam needs to be "consumed" into a certificate within 2 years of passing, and AGI meets that goal without a checkride.

I've never used them, except maybe to open a letter.

 

[Pinecone]

I like your suggestion @Pinecone . Maybe a good plan would be this route: Multi -> CFI -> CFII -> MEI. It should allow me to build hours towards a right seat somewhere while CFI'ng.
Glider is definitely something I was considering, but ASES not so much.
I was also considering AGI and IGI, just for fun but also to make a buck here and there thru in-person or zoom. Would that be useful?

Not really, as the CFI and CFII cover the same things.

I did them back when tests were cheap. I took a bunch of them in an afternoon. The IA, CFII and IGI tests are all basically the same. The AGI is similar to the Comm and CFI exams.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I was also considering AGI and IGI, just for fun but also to make a buck here and there thru in-person or zoom. Would that be useful?

There used to be differences in record keeping requirements for ground and flight instructors that might be beneficial when teaching ground schools. You’d have to look at those regs to see, though.

 

[farangutan]

In a similar position, finished commercial in May with a little over 400TT. I went ahead to work on the multi add-on while the commercial knowledge was still banging around in my head. I should have engaged with one of those one-week programs, but I don't have hardly any paid time off left for the rest of the year to make that work. The multi training has been a lot of fun. I have a side gig teaching Thai boxing but that is wearing me down physically, so I'm working on making CFI/CFII/MEI my next side gig. If a good opportunity arises, I'd take a flying job.

 

[brcase]

(I'm not a fan of aerobatics or backcountry flying)

I am not a big fan of them either. I do a little backcountry flying but it isn't really what I enjoy doing. Acrobatics aren't really my thing either, in part because I could see myself getting hooked on it and spending a lot of money I don't have on it.
On the other hand I love flying the glider. Did a 6.5hr 300+mile flight a few weeks ago. Competed in a regional racing competition. I have about 80 hours of glider time since May this year. Last year I set a state altitude record of 20,600ft. Ok our state altitude record is rather low, I have done better just didn't think to claim it has a record.
The glider is significantly cheaper to fly than a power plane, I figure it costs me about $40/hr to do 80/hrs a year, less as I do more flying since most of the cost is insurance, at about 25% of that cost . I don't have any hanger costs (store at home) and maintenance is usually less than $500/year.

I thought CFII would be much less stressful... so primary training is not too attractive.

I enjoy doing both primary and instrument, but nothing wrong with specializing in instrument training.

so multi would be strictly to fly for-hire later.

The cool thing about rating you don't ever expect to use is, you could easily end up using it. Suddenly you will meet the guy that just want the right seat guy in his King Air on the weekends.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[WDD]

M2C. Just retired at 62. Have PPL and IR. Getting ready for the commercial, my end goal is to be a cfi and cfii in retirement.

You don’t want to teach or fly for a living right now. You don’t have the fire in the belly to be a CFI now. Get the multi now and have fun.

BUT get the CFI soon even if you don’t use it. Easier to reactivate it later or to keep it active vs getting it 15 years from now when you retire.

 

[MacFlier]

M2C. Just retired at 62. Have PPL and IR. Getting ready for the commercial, my end goal is to be a cfi and cfii in retirement.

You don’t want to teach or fly for a living right now. You don’t have the fire in the belly to be a CFI now. Get the multi now and have fun.

BUT get the CFI soon even if you don’t use it. Easier to reactivate it later or to keep it active vs getting it 15 years from now when you retire.

More or less my plan as well. I still have to focus on my day job but eventually getting the CFI and CFII will allow me to get some small income while flying, and the Multi is there in case I bump into someone needing a right seat in a King Air.

 

[jnmeade]

Since the King-Air (smaller ones) is SP, you are not going to able to log any legal time riding right seat. You'd better hope he lets you fly the non-revenue legs so you can log something. It's still going to take a bunch of hours (1200 when I did it) to get any charter time.
CFI is going to take 5 or 25 hours (or some number of hours) time in type (or rear seat for the tail wheel) before the insurance company will let you instruct in some airplanes. So much for checking someone out in his new Citabria.
Instructing as a side-gig. You have a student for 1000 on Saturday. Weather is bad so that's cancelled and you can't mow the yard when it is raining so you sit around looking at your wife. You have another at 1400 on Sunday, but she never shows and you're sitting at the airport for 2-3 hours trying to figure it out and missing the grand daughter's soccer game. You find out that the instructors insurance eats up the income from 30 or more students so you don't take it out - and your wife asks about liability if a student has a wreck. Even if you win you still have to pay a lawyer.
There are two kinds of instructors. The see-on, do-one, teach-one time builder. Strictly a book guy cause he's never done it. (I mean, you have CFIIs who have never flown IMC). Then the old guy who has nothing to lose - (no assets thus no fear of liability). Hopefully he learned to fly hauling checks or chicks and actually knows something. But is he current or is he still thinking NDB and VOR back-course in a glass -panel world?
How long does it take to earn back the expense of becoming and staying current as an instructor?
Instructing is a highly cyclical business. Not nearly so steady as being a greeter at Wal-Mart.
Maybe you can get in tight at a small airport where there is a lot of training. I'd look for a gig like that.
Basically, my advice is to not get any ticket you can't use, thus the FAA can't use your supposed knowledge against you in an action. Fly for fun in an aircraft you can afford to operate. Maybe get a ground school instructor certificate and teach that. If becoming a CFI, ME, MEI, CFII, Glider, ASES, ticket holder etc. is because you like flying, buy a Piper Tri-Pacer and fly yourself as and when and how you like.
Better yet, go to A&P school and have everyone knocking at your door. Don't laugh. You could stay engaged as long as you live under the current trends. And you'd be around airplanes. And you'd have the ear of everyone in the aviation business.

 

[Zeldman]

someone needing a right seat in a King Air.

No offense to anyone, but there is not enough money in the world to get me in any seat of a King Air. Especially the 90. Nothing but an over hyped trainer.

Pilot to right seat meat: Gear up. Get me my coffee and a newspaper. Gear down. Clean the interior before the boss gets back. And start working on the before engine start checklist.

I haven't flown a 350 though.

 

[WDD]

Bonus - you get another 2 cents.

My plan to become a CFI is because I like this hobby, and I actually like teaching. If I teach enough to break even, then I’m good to go. I’m brand spanking new retired, have the IRAs in great shape and can now do something I want to do vs the 8-6 corporate life.

I’m not an old ADF guy, actually like to keep up with things, nor am I a 1500 hour wonder whose never been in IMC.

My future LLC advertising tagline will be “No, I won’t disappear one day to leave for the airlines. And no, I won’t show up to a lesson asking you what you want to do and I’ll actually keep track of things you need to learn”.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Basically, my advice is to not get any ticket you can't use, thus the FAA can't use your supposed knowledge against you in an action.

And if that level of paranoia is your default, I’d suggest another hobby.

 

[eman1200]

No offense to anyone, but there is not enough money in the world to get me in any seat of a King Air. Especially the 90. Nothing but an over hyped trainer.

Pilot to right seat meat: Gear up. Get me my coffee and a newspaper. Gear down. Clean the interior before the boss gets back. And start working on the before engine start checklist.

I haven't flown a 350 though.

some people don't have a choice

 

[schmookeeg]

Bonus - you get another 2 cents.

My plan to become a CFI is because I like this hobby, and I actually like teaching. If I teach enough to break even, then I’m good to go. I’m brand spanking new retired, have the IRAs in great shape and can now do something I want to do vs the 8-6 corporate life.

I’m not an old ADF guy, actually like to keep up with things, nor am I a 1500 hour wonder whose never been in IMC.

My future LLC advertising tagline will be “No, I won’t disappear one day to leave for the airlines. And no, I won’t show up to a lesson asking you what you want to do and I’ll actually keep track of things you need to learn”.

Out of curiousity -- Is this LLC planning to hire others to do this instructing? Otherwise I'm not sure it will shield you from a claim of "CFI fault" since you're said CFI if that was the intent. I'm actually unaware of any lawsuits against instructors, though, so I'm mostly guessing from my own protective actions. While we had 9 claims against our school (and lawsuits ran into the high dozens), the CFIs were never named. Of course, they all had the cash reserves of a burnt tortilla.

Curious on folks' views, since I had a student last year whose antics finally convinced me to join NAFI for their insurance program. At least now there is some defense lawyer fuel from someone else's pocket, in case he pooches it and the widow is aggrieved and needs my cash to mop up her tears. But it's in the back of my mind a lot lately.

I'm not sure any financial advisor would appreciate giving instruction with a positive net worth, but I don't think there is any sort of statute of limitations either -- I'm in their logbooks forever. We're discussing some fancy trusts to get around that, but it's futile while I have an income to attach. So it's accepted liability "for the love of aviation" I guess.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

Curious on folks' views, since I had a student last year whose antics finally convinced me to join NAFI for their insurance program. At least now there is some defense lawyer fuel from someone else's pocket, in case he pooches it and the widow is aggrieved and needs my cash to mop up her tears. But it's in the back of my mind a lot lately.

I'm not sure any financial advisor would appreciate giving instruction with a positive net worth, but I don't think there is any sort of statute of limitations either -- I'm in their logbooks forever. We're discussing some fancy trusts to get around that, but it's futile while I have an income to attach. So it's accepted liability "for the love of aviation" I guess.

I never discussed my flying with a financial advisor, but you are probably right. When I had a job that required "key man" insurance, they were more concerned about my scuba diving than flying. I do carry liability insurance through NAFI for flying non-owned airplanes, and at the FBO where I work, I am covered by the company insurance. Except for the occasional Flight Review, we require the company to be named as an additional insured with a waiver of subrogation when we train someone in an airplane we don't own.

I take some comfort in the fact that to my knowledge, no one over the years has cited a case where a CFI was successfully sued for inadequate instruction. If anyone here knows of one, please share it with us.

 

[WDD]

FWIW - I’d be a CFI within my club. They provide the airplane that the student would directly rent. The club also covers CFIs and training flights under their insurance.

 

[MacFlier]

No offense to anyone, but there is not enough money in the world to get me in any seat of a King Air. Especially the 90. Nothing but an over hyped trainer.

Pilot to right seat meat: Gear up. Get me my coffee and a newspaper. Gear down. Clean the interior before the boss gets back. And start working on the before engine start checklist.

I haven't flown a 350 though.

I hope it is not just that...

 

[MacFlier]

And if that level of paranoia is your default, I’d suggest another hobby.

I know the FAA will hold you to higher standards as you get higher ratings but that is not going to be (or should be) a detriment to obtaining them.

 

[squincher]

I know the FAA will hold you to higher standards as you get higher ratings but that is not going to be (or should be) a detriment to obtaining them.

Especially if those ratings impart an increased level of knowledge and ability that justify a higher standard.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I hope it is not just that...

It's not. And the guy making that assertion has never flown a KingAir either.

 

[jnmeade]

You can get a lot of training, including training such as ATP, without getting the certificate. No one said don't get the training. Do get whatever training turns you on. Just don't get the certificate unless you need it. What? You want to say you're an ATP when you'll never fly left seat part 135 or 121? So, it's a glitzy paper on your "I Love Me" wall? It's silly to get a certificate that exposes you to more risk from the FAA than you need. Whatever certificate you hold, the FAA will hold you to complying with what you learned to get it and are supposed to know about exercising it.
I know you're not talking about me, but I have indeed flown a King Air, a number of them (from both seats).

 

[MauleSkinner]

Whatever certificate you hold, the FAA will hold you to complying with what you learned to get it and are supposed to know about exercising it.

Not true. All pilots are bound by the same set of regulations, whether they qualify to operate under those regulations or not. The difference is that in the event of a violation, the penalties can be more severe for a pilot with a higher-level certificate.

The instances where I’ve heard of that happen have been egregious, intentional violations, not “oopsies.” So unless you’re intending to violate regulations, I don’t see a downside to higher certificate levels.

 

[dbahn]

I got my CFI (glider) in the 1970s when I didn't have much in assets. I added SEL and SES to teach in those about 15 years ago. But now I have assets that I want to protect for the sake of my younger wife and my kids, and even with CFI insurance there is considerable risk of being under-insured, and the hassles that go along with defending a claim simply aren't worth it for me. (My former orthopedic partner was sued for malpractice, won the case (which should never have been brought) but was a wreck from all of the collateral damage even though fully insured - time away from court, depositions, sleepless nights, etc. etc.)

If you haven't guessed, I voluntarily let my CFI certificate expire.

 

[MacFlier]

I got my CFI (glider) in the 1970s when I didn't have much in assets. I added SEL and SES to teach in those about 15 years ago. But now I have assets that I want to protect for the sake of my younger wife and my kids, and even with CFI insurance there is considerable risk of being under-insured, and the hassles that go along with defending a claim simply aren't worth it for me. (My former orthopedic partner was sued for malpractice, won the case (which should never have been brought) but was a wreck from all of the collateral damage even though fully insured - time away from court, depositions, sleepless nights, etc. etc.)

If you haven't guessed, I voluntarily let my CFI certificate expire.

I know CFI insurance and potential liability are things to consider, but will not be a show stopper for me (I hope)

 

[RussR]

And you need 5 hours PIC in the make and model multi to instruct in it.

Nitpick, you need 5 hours PIC in M/M to instruct "towards a rating" in a multi. You do not need the 5 hours PIC in M/M to, for example, conduct an IPC, provide new avionics training, a flight review, etc. Whether or not you should conduct such training without some experience in the model is a different question, but it's not always cut-and-dry. There are some big-name CFIs that specialize in things like avionics training that very well may not have any time in the model, especially if it's a relatively rare model. I have done similar work myself.

Since the King-Air (smaller ones) is SP, you are not going to able to log any legal time riding right seat. You'd better hope he lets you fly the non-revenue legs so you can log something. It's still going to take a bunch of hours (1200 when I did it) to get any charter time.
CFI is going to take 5 or 25 hours (or some number of hours) time in type (or rear seat for the tail wheel) before the insurance company will let you instruct in some airplanes. So much for checking someone out in his new Citabria.
Instructing as a side-gig. You have a student for 1000 on Saturday. Weather is bad so that's cancelled and you can't mow the yard when it is raining so you sit around looking at your wife. You have another at 1400 on Sunday, but she never shows and you're sitting at the airport for 2-3 hours trying to figure it out and missing the grand daughter's soccer game. You find out that the instructors insurance eats up the income from 30 or more students so you don't take it out - and your wife asks about liability if a student has a wreck. Even if you win you still have to pay a lawyer.
There are two kinds of instructors. The see-on, do-one, teach-one time builder. Strictly a book guy cause he's never done it. (I mean, you have CFIIs who have never flown IMC). Then the old guy who has nothing to lose - (no assets thus no fear of liability). Hopefully he learned to fly hauling checks or chicks and actually knows something. But is he current or is he still thinking NDB and VOR back-course in a glass -panel world?
How long does it take to earn back the expense of becoming and staying current as an instructor?
Instructing is a highly cyclical business. Not nearly so steady as being a greeter at Wal-Mart.
Maybe you can get in tight at a small airport where there is a lot of training. I'd look for a gig like that.
Basically, my advice is to not get any ticket you can't use, thus the FAA can't use your supposed knowledge against you in an action. Fly for fun in an aircraft you can afford to operate. Maybe get a ground school instructor certificate and teach that. If becoming a CFI, ME, MEI, CFII, Glider, ASES, ticket holder etc. is because you like flying, buy a Piper Tri-Pacer and fly yourself as and when and how you like.
Better yet, go to A&P school and have everyone knocking at your door. Don't laugh. You could stay engaged as long as you live under the current trends. And you'd be around airplanes. And you'd have the ear of everyone in the aviation business.

Man, this is a pretty cynical viewpoint on pretty much everything. More training is ALWAYS valuable in my opinion. The more you get, the better a pilot you are, even if you never fly that seaplane or tailwheel, or never actually use your CFI certificate, etc.

Also, I've made quite a nice additional income being a side-job CFI. It's not all "waiting at the FBO for hours just to have someone cancel". Depends on your specialty and niche.

No offense to anyone, but there is not enough money in the world to get me in any seat of a King Air. Especially the 90. Nothing but an over hyped trainer.

No offense taken, but you and I must have a pretty different idea of "enough money", since the King Air 300 is my work plane and I spent 34 hours in it in the last 6 days...