What time can I log without a medical

RyanB said:
Yes, logging and acting are technically two different things, but there’s no logbook that I’ve seen that has columns to differentiate the two unless you specifically state it in the remarks. You’ve gotta be careful there if you’re trying to legally follow the reg.
Click to expand...
The only differentiation I've ever heard of (other than being a little anal :D) is for career-oriented pilots. In that case, some pilots add a column part "Part 1 PIC." That's for employment applications that ask for that non-regulatory information. Nothing to do with the FAA.
 
EdFred said:
If a logbook is inspected for some reason the FAA may question why a flight while out of passenger currency showed PIC time but not solo and no instruction received. A little note in the remarks could save some headaches.
Click to expand...
I have never done that. I have not logged solo since my commercial checkride in 1995 and don't write a note mentioning I don't have passengers. I'm trying to picture a realistic scenario (other than a checkride for a certificate or rating where there was a solo requirement) where that would be a problem.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I have never done that. I have not logged solo since my commercial checkride in 1995 and don't write a note mentioning I don't have passengers. I'm trying to picture a realistic scenario (other than a checkride for a certificate or rating where there was a solo requirement) where that would be a problem.
Click to expand...

When you have guys tagging q-tip props on the ramp as unairworthy because they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, it may be a good idea to try and idiot proof some things.

61.51(b) does say "must" ;) I know only for part (a), but why not anyway? Especially if an argument is going to be made that you weren't apparently current for a night flight.
 
No problem. You were sole manipulator.

I flew with a friend in his P-Baron. I did not have current FR or medical. I logged the time I flew. All in accordance with the FARs
 
EdFred said:
If a logbook is inspected for some reason the FAA may question why a flight while out of passenger currency showed PIC time but not solo and no instruction received. A little note in the remarks could save some headaches.
Click to expand...
The vast majority of most pilots' "PIC" time will be "sole manipulator" vs. "acting PIC." That's the distinction I was referring to.
 
I flew commercial last week on Delta. I'll look to log that time - I mean, I was in the plane. LOL :D
 
bbchien said:
Like Mark writes, most pilots done' unerstand that there is:
(1) PIC- responsible for the safety of the flight and there is
(2) PIC Sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft in which you are otherwise rated.

CFI
Click to expand...
The second doesn't exist. The only definition of PIC is the first.

Being PIC has neither a necessary or sufficient condition to LOGGING PIC time.
 
EdFred said:
When you have guys tagging q-tip props on the ramp as unairworthy because they don't know their *** from a hole in the ground, it may be a good idea to try and idiot proof some things.

61.51(b) does say "must" ;) I know only for part (a), but why not anyway? Especially if an argument is going to be made that you weren't apparently current for a night flight.
Click to expand...
That's the part I was asking about. I don't see a reasonable deviation/enforcement/incident scenario where the failure to mark a previous night flight "solo" would come into the picture.
 
Can I log solo multi-engine floatplane time without the rating?
(The first Aztec Nomad.......by Jack Murdock....co-founder of Tektronix)
 
Lindberg said:
The vast majority of most pilots' "PIC" time will be "sole manipulator" vs. "acting PIC." That's the distinction I was referring to.
Click to expand...
Really? You think the "vast majority of most pilots" are flying aircraft and logging pilot in command flight time without being the pilot in command? I can see it when one is a new pilot running through certificates and ratings in situations where the instructor is in command, but I don't think that equates to a vast majority of pilots or a large percentage of most pilots' PIC time.

Now you got me curious. Assuming you have more than 200 hours of total flight time, percentage-wise, how much of your total flight time involves flights in which you were not the pilot in command?
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's the part I was asking about. I don't see a reasonable deviation/enforcement/incident scenario where the failure to mark a previous night flight "solo" would come into the picture.
Click to expand...

Scenario:

I'm currently not night current. But I go flying tonight with Joe. Joe isn't a CFI, but Joe is night current, so he acts as PIC and I log some night PIC time and one takeoff and one landing for the flight. Next week I do something stupid, and the FAA asks to see my logbook. I present them my logbook. Inspector goes through book, and says "Hey, this wasn't a solo flight, and you weren't passenger current. Many of your other flights prior to this indicate solo, looks like you had passengers." (I do actually log solo flights as solo - always have). Inspector decides to ding me with a 61.57, because nothing in the book differentiates it as acting vs logging.

Or even if I didn't go flying with Joe and I was solo (and forgot to log it as solo), still looks like, based on evidence I provided, I had passengers.
 
Last edited:
kgruber said:
Can I log solo multi-engine floatplane time without the rating?
(The first Aztec Nomad.......by Jack Murdock....co-founder of Tektronix)
Click to expand...

If you're the sole occupant of the aircraft it doesn't matter if you're rated for it or not, you can log PIC. 61.51e1(ii). Now, you're not legal to fly it if you're not rated, but if you are flying it, you can correctly enter that into your logbook as PIC, and of course therefore provide easy evidence for a violation... :D
 
EdFred said:
Scenario:

I'm currently not night current. But I go flying tonight with Joe. Joe isn't a CFI, but Joe is night current, so he acts as PIC and I log some night PIC time and one takeoff and one landing for the flight. Next week I do something stupid, and the FAA asks to see my logbook. I present them my logbook. Inspector goes through book, and says "Hey, this wasn't a solo flight, and you weren't passenger current." (I do actually log solo flights as solo - always have). Inspector decides to ding me with a 61.57, because nothing in the book differentiates is as acting vs logging. I failed to mark it as solo because well it wasn't.
Click to expand...
We'll have to disagree on that. I guess I just don't see that as a realistic enforcement scenario created because you didn't identify a flight as "solo." OTOH, if you did log that flight with Joe as "solo," you'd be violating 61.59.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Really? You think the "vast majority of most pilots" are flying aircraft and logging pilot in command flight time without being the pilot in command? I can see it when one is a new pilot running through certificates and ratings in situations where the instructor is in command, but I don't think that equates to a vast majority of pilots or a large percentage of most pilots' PIC time.

Now you got me curious. Assuming you have more than 200 hours of total flight time, percentage-wise, how much of your total flight time involves flights in which you were not the pilot in command?
Click to expand...

I took his statement to mean that most pilots are logging PIC under the "sole manipulator" clause rather than not manipulating the controls but logging PIC under the "acting as PIC" clause, such as in a two-crew airplane. For example, an airline captain who doesn't touch the flight controls during a leg will still log PIC under 61.51e1(iii).

Otherwise, as I know you know, a normal hobbyist pilot in a light GA airplane doesn't get to log PIC just because they were acting as PIC.
 
RussR said:
If you're the sole occupant of the aircraft it doesn't matter if you're rated for it or not, you can log PIC. 61.51e1(ii). Now, you're not legal to fly it if you're not rated, but if you are flying it, you can correctly enter that into your logbook as PIC, and of course therefore provide easy evidence for a violation... :D
Click to expand...

You can be signed of for solo flight in an aircraft that you aren't rated in though.
 
midlifeflyer said:
We'll have to disagree on that. I guess I just don't see that as a realistic enforcement scenario created because you didn't identify a flight as "solo." OTOH, if you did log that flight with Joe as "solo," you'd be violating 61.59.
Click to expand...

Based on dealing with FAA medical, I find it realistic. The FAA is filled with idiots that get their rocks off on grounding airmen.
 
RussR said:
I took his statement to mean that most pilots are logging PIC under the "sole manipulator" clause rather than not manipulating the controls but logging PIC under the "acting as PIC" clause, such as in a two-crew airplane. For example, an airline captain who doesn't touch the flight controls during a leg will still log PIC under 61.51e1(iii).
Click to expand...
I took
The vast majority of most pilots' "PIC" time will be "sole manipulator" vs. "acting PIC."
Click to expand...
at face value with the "vs" having its standard meaning, "in contrast to or as the alternative of" (Merriam-Webster). Chances are most of the PIC flight time for most pilots is both as PIC and as sole manipulator.
 
EdFred said:
Scenario:

I'm currently not night current. But I go flying tonight with Joe. Joe isn't a CFI, but Joe is night current, so he acts as PIC and I log some night PIC time and one takeoff and one landing for the flight. Next week I do something stupid, and the FAA asks to see my logbook. I present them my logbook. Inspector goes through book, and says "Hey, this wasn't a solo flight, and you weren't passenger current. Many of your other flights prior to this indicate solo, looks like you had passengers." (I do actually log solo flights as solo - always have). Inspector decides to ding me with a 61.57, because nothing in the book differentiates it as acting vs logging.

Or even if I didn't go flying with Joe and I was solo (and forgot to log it as solo), still looks like, based on evidence I provided, I had passengers.
Click to expand...
If you believe that the way you log can generate evidence (real or imagined) against you for a violation, maybe that’s not the best way to log.
 
EdFred said:
Inspector decides to ding me with a 61.57, because nothing in the book differentiates it as acting vs logging.
Click to expand...
Exactly the point I was trying to make above that others didn’t seem to grasp.
 
kgruber said:
Can I log solo multi-engine floatplane time without the rating?
(The first Aztec Nomad.......by Jack Murdock....co-founder of Tektronix)
Click to expand...

Nope, you are not rated in it.

When I was in USAF UPT, I was not AMEL rated, so my solo time was Solo, but not PIC.
 
Pinecone said:
Nope, you are not rated in it.

When I was in USAF UPT, I was not AMEL rated, so my solo time was Solo, but not PIC.
Click to expand...
Except that the FAA regs have one specifically saying:
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;​
 
midlifeflyer said:
Except that the FAA regs have one specifically saying:
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;​
Click to expand...
If I am not rated and the acting PIC dies, can I log the time with the body still in the other seat, or do I have to throw it out the door to make me the "sole occupant"?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If I am not rated and the acting PIC dies, can I log the time with the body still in the other seat, or do I have to throw it out the door to make me the "sole occupant"?
Click to expand...

Yes you can log the time, but in an (mildly interesting) twist of the regulations, if there was anybody in the back seat (pilot or not), then you wouldn't be the "sole occupant" and therefore couldn't log it.

So, you can log it if you save your own life, but not if you save someone else's too.
 
RussR said:
Yes you can log the time, but in an (mildly interesting) twist of the regulations, if there was anybody in the back seat (pilot or not), then you wouldn't be the "sole occupant" and therefore couldn't log it.

So, you can log it if you save your own life, but not if you save someone else's too.
Click to expand...
But either way you have a story far more valuable than the time you logged for the FAA.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Except that the FAA regs have one specifically saying:
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;​
Click to expand...

I need to amend my logbook entries

EDIT ------------

Never mind. I checked and I did log the solo time as PIC.

What I could not do is log the DUAL time as PIC, as I was not rated in AMEL. One of my classmates had his AMEL rating before UPT and was able to log his sole manipulator time as PIC.
 
Last edited:
RussR said:
I took his statement to mean that most pilots are logging PIC under the "sole manipulator" clause rather than not manipulating the controls but logging PIC under the "acting as PIC" clause, such as in a two-crew airplane. For example, an airline captain who doesn't touch the flight controls during a leg will still log PIC under 61.51e1(iii).

Otherwise, as I know you know, a normal hobbyist pilot in a light GA airplane doesn't get to log PIC just because they were acting as PIC.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I meant.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I took at face value with the "vs" having its standard meaning, "in contrast to or as the alternative of" (Merriam-Webster). Chances are most of the PIC flight time for most pilots is both as PIC and as sole manipulator.
Click to expand...

How about this:

The vast majority of most pilots' [logged] "PIC" time will be [logged as] "sole manipulator" vs. "acting PIC."
Click to expand...
 
Most times, most pilots are both acting as PIC and also sole manipulator of the controls.
 
Lindberg said:
How about this:
Click to expand...
We may be missing each other's point. It's that "vs." I think the vast majority of time most pilots log is acting as PIC while sole manipulator, not "as opposed to" sole manipulator.

There are definitely situations when a pilot might be sole manipulator without also being PIC. It happens in a variety of receiving instruction scenarios. If you are with another pilot and you are flying their airplane, you both probably consider the owner in command. The SIC being the flying pilot in a 2-pilot operation. But I don't think those account for even a slight majority of most pilots' logged flight time. I might be wrong on that. I'm not really thinking about airline ops.
 
IIRC, the only time you can log PIC without flying the airplane (non-CFI) is where there is more than one crewmember required. For most GA flying, that is pretty much when acting as a Safety Pilot, where the two have agreed that the Safety Pilot is acting as PIC.

One gotcha is, if you are Basic Med and doing Safety Pilot for someone, you HAVE to be the PIC, as the Basic Med only applies when you are PIC.
 
Pinecone said:
IIRC, the only time you can log PIC without flying the airplane (non-CFI) is where there is more than one crewmember required. For most GA flying, that is pretty much when acting as a Safety Pilot, where the two have agreed that the Safety Pilot is acting as PIC.

One gotcha is, if you are Basic Med and doing Safety Pilot for someone, you HAVE to be the PIC, as the Basic Med only applies when you are PIC.
Click to expand...

That little bug for BasicMed having to -be- the PIC as safety pilot was recently changed. I don’t have a reference for it on hand, but I’m sure someone will be along in a bit to cite the reference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Pinecone said:
When I was in USAF UPT, I was not AMEL rated, so my solo time was Solo, but not PIC.
Click to expand...
I see you corrected this.

When I was in USAF UPT, I didn't log any time at all. When I left active duty they gave me a computer printout. It shows totals for First Pilot, Copilot, Combat, Student, and Total Pilot hours. My UPT records show Dual, Solo, Total and check ride grades. PIC is not mentioned.
 
Back
Top