What single engine trainer to buy?

Don’t Grumman have hour limited airframes?
Everything certified since Part 23 became the rule(s) has a life limit. Grummans, Tomahawks, Cirri, name it, it has a life limit. This began in the early '70's.
 
Decathlon! Completely unsuitable for the mission, but he'll have fun and can overcharge. I'm told a school in my area gets $400 an hour. :eek:

I like hearing that number. I am about to get a CAP-10 for unusual attitude/upset/basic aerobatic training.
 
Another independent instructor and I bought a high time 172N in April, 2021 to have a plane at our airport to train in. No flight school at our airport. I am amazed at how good the 172 is as a trainer. Its usage wildly exceeds any expectations we had when we bought the thing. We've had virtually zero problems. It’s flown over 1,000 with us and we just put in an overhauled engine. Engine had 1800 hours on it when we bought it. It’s easily paid for itself including the overhauled engine and other upgrades we’ve put in - 530W and 2 G5s. And I think we’ve got about the cheapest rates in Atlanta area at $135 an hour wet. I’d be hard pressed to consider anything but a 172 were i to do this again.
 
This has been great feedback and good discussion! I appreciate all of the input. Getting to some of the questions, our airport is in MO, field elevation 700’, so high DA is usually not a factor. Wx cooperates the vast majority of days.

My A&P offered up his 150 for sale, so taking a look at that this week. However, the capabilities of the 172 sound favorable as well. Just depends on how much CAPEX my buddy wants to depart with. I appreciate the recommendation of a N or P - exactly the type of information I was seeking. I do see several 172 of that vintage with north of 10,000 hours :eek:
 
It's been a couple decades since I was a student pilot, but my take is that the 172 would be a better choice. The following is my experience (take it for what it's worth)...

The only experience I have with a Cherokee is with an Arrow. And the club sold that several years ago. The 172 has the following advantages (some of which have already been pointed out):

2 doors rather than 1.

More comfortable if the student (or pilot) is tall. I don't know if it was the angle of the pilot's seat to the rudder pedals or what, but 3 hours in the Arrow and it was all I could do to crawl out of that plane. I have not had that problem with a 172. Also, I never flew with anyone I hated enough to put in the back seat of the Arrow. No legroom. None. That 1969 model was a 2 person airplane with plenty of cargo space. I had a back seat passenger 2 times when I was a student (yes, with my CFI in the right front seat once and with the DPE in the right front seat the second, she invited my CFI to ride along on the check ride) and I would not have done that with the Arrow.

Put the fuel selector on Both and forget it. A low wing cannot do that.

I have 4.1 hours in a 150 and have no intention of ever increasing that number. I have long legs and when the seat is all the way back in the 150 I still hit the bottom of the panel with my knees when I go for the brakes. I do not have that problem in the 172 (or the 182). The limitation of maximum gross for a 150 is also a problem. I flew it once with my CFI, we combined a check up and spin training in it. The other two times I flew it were solo.

The bottom line is that I would recommend the 172 as the airplane to consider.
 
Another independent instructor and I bought a high time 172N in April, 2021 to have a plane at our airport to train in. No flight school at our airport. I am amazed at how good the 172 is as a trainer. Its usage wildly exceeds any expectations we had when we bought the thing. We've had virtually zero problems. It’s flown over 1,000 with us and we just put in an overhauled engine. Engine had 1800 hours on it when we bought it. It’s easily paid for itself including the overhauled engine and other upgrades we’ve put in - 530W and 2 G5s. And I think we’ve got about the cheapest rates in Atlanta area at $135 an hour wet. I’d be hard pressed to consider anything but a 172 were i to do this again.
how much was the new engine
 
We bought a wrecked 172 for $19,000. Had that engine overhauled so we could do a quick swap (plane was out of service only 3 days) and sold off about everything else. The overhaul was $30,000.
 
150 or 152 will need either your buddy to be on the light side. Or only take thin young ladies for students.

My CFI is a small guy and he complaint he gets too much time in the 150/152 because other instructors wouldn’t work with many students.
Could always go with a PA22-108 Colt. 2 seats with a better useful load. Fuel burn averages out to 6gph. Landing gear that is forgiving, no flaps, and a better trainer for rudder use in my opinion. Although its so gentle in stalls students may struggle learning how to recognize them.
 
Last edited:
C172 or PA28. I own a C172 but would lean towards a PA28 for flight training. If you consider other types, make sure to check on insurance to avoid any surprises...
 
I’ve got a buddy getting his CFI, that’s looking to buy an airplane to provide instruction, and he’s asking me for input. He’s a fellow Army helicopter driver, and he did have his FW PPL before he went to Army flight school. When it comes to singles, I don’t know what I don’t know. My first inclination is a tried and true 172, even though those prices are seemingly through the roof with all the flight schools lapping them up. But what model? As we know some years are to be avoided, with “gotcha” ADs and such.

Again, I don’t know what I don’t know. Or is a 172 even the way to go? Cherokee 160/180? I started my aviation career in the Army, so I skipped the GA single engine slog (don’t even have a PPL). My only SE time is a little over 50 hours in a Cherokee 180, and that was just to get my CSEL. Been flying my 310 ever since as far as GA is concerned.

He’s chomping at the bit to procure an aircraft and begin instructing. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks fellas.
Your buddy should join POA and ask for himself.
diamonds are popular around here.

i think it comes down to priorities and goals, then the rest comes easy.
chomping = foolish decisions
 
Why are the Beechcraft trainers never recommended? The Musketeer and Sundowner seem like great training platform, but I have to assume parts are expensive and/or hard to find?
 
Could always go with a PA22-108 Colt. 2 seats with a better useful load. Fuel burn averages out to 6gph. Landing gear that is forgiving, no flaps, and a better trainer for rudder use in my opinion. Although its so gentle in stalls students may struggle learning how to recognize them.
I’ve owned one. For some reason it’s looks just didn’t do well for attracting students. I could get people to sit in a 172 all day.

They are great little airplanes.
 
Parts expenses is what I’ve always heard.

Mostly baloney. The Lycoming engines are pretty standard as is everything else. The only thing that's a bit of a challenge is the rubber donuts in the landing gear; the Textron parts are very expensive, but there's a guy in Africa who will make them as an owner-produced part (you send him a drawing) for about 1/3 the price and that's what most folks use. The Beech Aero Club is a great resource for locating parts and occasionally does a group buy to get a discount.

The planes are quite easy to maintain with no onerous ADs. My model, a B23, has only 4 recurring ADs and they're all pretty simple inspections.

Probably the main reason they're not used by more schools is the possibility of damage from a bad landing. They're not as forgiving on landing as Cherokees and require accurate airspeed control. Flown by the numbers, they land just fine, but if you're outside the numbers they can bite you. You can get into a porpoise if you're too fast and bounce, and if you don't immediately shove in the throttle and go around you may collapse the nose gear on the third bounce.
 
Mostly baloney. The Lycoming engines are pretty standard as is everything else. The only thing that's a bit of a challenge is the rubber donuts in the landing gear; the Textron parts are very expensive, but there's a guy in Africa who will make them as an owner-produced part (you send him a drawing) for about 1/3 the price and that's what most folks use. The Beech Aero Club is a great resource for locating parts and occasionally does a group buy to get a discount.

The planes are quite easy to maintain with no onerous ADs. My model, a B23, has only 4 recurring ADs and they're all pretty simple inspections.

Probably the main reason they're not used by more schools is the possibility of damage from a bad landing. They're not as forgiving on landing as Cherokees and require accurate airspeed control. Flown by the numbers, they land just fine, but if you're outside the numbers they can bite you. You can get into a porpoise if you're too fast and bounce, and if you don't immediately shove in the throttle and go around you may collapse the nose gear on the third bounce.
That's honestly good to know. Must be similar to the whole "Traumahawk" deal.
 
RV 12? - Maybe. You can't use a home built experimental for instruction. Thus, an RV 12 for instruction would have to be an S LSA, not an E LSA.
You can use an experimental for instruction as long as that experimental isn't provided by the instructor for a fee. But an instructor can't build a business around training in an experimental he provides, as that would be considered "commercial use" of the aircraft. There are some narrow exceptions for specific type transition training under a LODA.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WDD
You can use an experimental for instruction as long as that experimental isn't provided by the instructor for a fee. But an instructor can't build a business around training in an experimental he provides, as that would be considered "commercial use" of the aircraft. There are some narrow exceptions for specific type transition training under a LODA.
Can you log dual?
 
For the RV 12, I believe if it is the factory built or built to the factory specs with no modifications it can be used for training. I know there are several high school aviation built 12's SLSA's being used for instruction. I am not sure of the ownership details if they are registered to the school or an LLC. Here is a list of the training centers for the RV 12. https://www.flyrv12.com/flight-schools/
 
For the RV 12, I believe if it is the factory built or built to the factory specs with no modifications it can be used for training. I know there are several high school aviation built 12's SLSA's being used for instruction. I am not sure of the ownership details if they are registered to the school or an LLC. Here is a list of the training centers for the RV 12. https://www.flyrv12.com/flight-schools/
Correct. It must be an S LSA and not an E LSA. The S LSA can be rented for flight training. But renting out a plane you own and also providing the pilot services (the instructor) would I believe be a "wet lease", opening up the instructor to also having to be an operator, a flight school. Which means the 100 hour inspections, etc.
 
Last edited:
The good flight school around me (Texas) all seem to use older Diamond 40s as trainers. The only school near me has completely exhausted worn out planes so I bought a DA40NG and hired a CFI to instruct me, I think the Diamonds are the best plane to learn in compared to the few flights I took in old 172’s
 
91.319 e 2
As posted previously the RV-12 can be an S-LSA which is not experimental.

But with a LODA you still can instruct from an from an E/AB the instructor owns.

If YOU own the E/AB you can pay the CFI.

See below for more examples:

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...s-m-inhofe-national-defense-authorization-acT

I still don't fully get how a 'factory' can build an RV-12 under S-LSA but an AnP cannot. I would think that the FAA would carve out an 'AnP LSA' rule as certificated AnPs are not amateurs (well... most aren't lol). Oh wait, the FAA and common sense.. I see the problem now.
 
Last edited:
One thing to consider is what kind of rental aircraft are available in the area for students after they get their license. When I was a student, that was a primary concern when I started lessons. I wanted to learn in something that I would be able to rent and fly after I got my license. The experience gained from learning in a plane that you never fly again after getting your license is partially wasted.
 
I still don't fully get how a 'factory' can build an RV-12 under S-LSA but an AnP cannot. I would think that the FAA would carve out an 'AnP LSA' rule as certificated AnPs are not amateurs (well... most aren't lol). Oh wait, the FAA and common sense.. I see the problem now.
Probably because the S-LSA is built according some sort of ANSI standard by the factory. The A&P can build an E-LSA but need not conform to the ANSI standard.
 
I disagree. Learning to fly “an airplane” vs learning only a specific model is highly beneficial.
I would agree if you are planning a career in aviation or expect to be flying a wide variety of planes during your flying life. That isn't the case with most pilots. Most of the people that earn their PPL fly the same plane they learned in for a couple hundred hours (if that) and then move on to other pastimes. For those folks, learning the idiosyncracies of the plane you will continue to fly is more important than getting a broad base of experience that will not be relevant to your future activity in the pastime. I would also argue that the broad base of experience from flying a range of aircraft types is more beneficial after you've become conversant with the basics and your brain has enough bandwidth to branch out into the subtleties that different aircraft bring to the table. I didn't add the differences between high and low wing planes to my repertoire until after I had solidly mastered the basics. That was well after I got my PPL. Even later I added taildragger experience, acro experience and went for my IFR rating and commercial license. 47 years after I got my PPL, that broad base of experience is valuable. As a low-time student pilot it would have just been confusing.
 
I would agree if you are planning a career in aviation or expect to be flying a wide variety of planes during your flying life. That isn't the case with most pilots. Most of the people that earn their PPL fly the same plane they learned in for a couple hundred hours (if that) and then move on to other pastimes. For those folks, learning the idiosyncracies of the plane you will continue to fly is more important than getting a broad base of experience that will not be relevant to your future activity in the pastime. I would also argue that the broad base of experience from flying a range of aircraft types is more beneficial after you've become conversant with the basics and your brain has enough bandwidth to branch out into the subtleties that different aircraft bring to the table. I didn't add the differences between high and low wing planes to my repertoire until after I had solidly mastered the basics. That was well after I got my PPL. Even later I added taildragger experience, acro experience and went for my IFR rating and commercial license. 47 years after I got my PPL, that broad base of experience is valuable. As a low-time student pilot it would have just been confusing.
Again, I disagree. You can learn to fly a Cessna 150 and pass a checkride. You can learn to fly an airplane and pass the same checkride. I think what many people see as “idiosyncrasies” of a particular airplane are similar across many models.

By the time I got my private certificate I had two different Cherokees and 3 Cessnas in my logbook, and had flown from bit the left seat and the right seat. I didn’t find that confusing at all, and the transition to centerline front seat or back seat wasn’t an issue shortly thereafter.
 
Probably because the S-LSA is built according some sort of ANSI standard by the factory. The A&P can build an E-LSA but need not conform to the ANSI standard.
Technically, anyone can become an S-LSA manufacturer. In general, develop your design with the applicable ASTM standards per Part 22 (when released), develop your QC system, complete the required FAA forms, and present your S-LSA aircraft to the world.

I still don't fully get how a 'factory' can build an RV-12 under S-LSA but an AnP cannot.
An A&P certificate is not equal to a Part 21 or 22 manufacturer. Same reason a mechanic cannot produce parts under Part 21. However, follow the requirements listed above and any mechanic can become an S-LSA mfgr.
 
Technically, anyone can become an S-LSA manufacturer. In general, develop your design with the applicable ASTM standards per Part 22 (when released), develop your QC system, complete the required FAA forms, and present your S-LSA aircraft to the world.
I agree with your statement in general. However, I read the statement below as the A&P building someone else's design under ASTM:
I still don't fully get how a 'factory' can build an RV-12 under S-LSA but an AnP cannot.
The A&P won't have access to Van's QC procedures, for example. It also isn't the A&P's design, but rather Van's design. I don't think the A&P can copy the parts for to make an RV-12 clone either, even if they did develop their own QC and filled out the paperwork.
 
The A&P won't have access to Van's QC procedures, for example. I
I read it in a more general context. Without Part 22 live yet can only guess, but if a mechanic were to buy say an e-lsa kit, followed the required steps per Part 22,
built the aircraft with their own QC system, and issued their own Statement of Compliance, I dont believe the rules could stop that.

The kit OEM probably wont like it, but would be similar if copied an STC install however supplied my own parts and "approvals." Once 22 goes live next month, will be interesting to see how its laid out. For example, find a TC thats in the public domain that fits MOSAIC, develop a Part 22 compliant process, and build new SLSAs per the old TC drawings....
 
I read it in a more general context. Without Part 22 live yet can only guess, but if a mechanic were to buy say an e-lsa kit, followed the required steps per Part 22,
built the aircraft with their own QC system, and issued their own Statement of Compliance, I dont believe the rules could stop that.

The kit OEM probably wont like it, but would be similar if copied an STC install however supplied my own parts and "approvals." Once 22 goes live next month, will be interesting to see how its laid out. For example, find a TC thats in the public domain that fits MOSAIC, develop a Part 22 compliant process, and build new SLSAs per the old TC drawings....
It will be interesting to see the final rules. Are you only considering FAA rules? ASTM has several levels. Some are voluntary and anyone can produce something that is ASTM compliant. Some of ASTM are part of our legal systems. Some ASTM requires inspection and confirmation for compliance by a third party. If LSA aircraft require the inspection by a third party to ensure compliance, that might make it too expensive for an A&P to make just a few planes. In other words, the combination of FAA compliance, and ASTM standards may make it uneconomical for an A&P to simply make a few planes. However, the economics is different from the rules and is a different discussion altogether.
 
It will be interesting to see the final rules. Are you only considering FAA rules? ASTM has several levels
The Part 22 guidance will list the specific ASTM standards just as its done for Part 23. However, Part 22 required new ASTM standards which is why there was a delay for the airworthiness side. Once Part 22 goes live the supporting guidance should be live as well.

If LSA aircraft require the inspection by a third party
Just as with previous SLSA, its my understanding Part 22 will use the same OEM generated Manufacturer's Statement of Compliance to declare the aircraft conformity to Part 22 standards. No 3rd party inspect requirement.

From what I've seen and heard the "economics" of any Part 22 venture may well be within the reach of any enterprising party especially if using established designs or maybe previous TC'd aircraft that are no longer produced. And if someone can figure out a cost effective way for "simplified flight controls" you can throw in a few more options on the helicopter side as well.
 
The Part 22 guidance will list the specific ASTM standards just as its done for Part 23. However, Part 22 required new ASTM standards which is why there was a delay for the airworthiness side. Once Part 22 goes live the supporting guidance should be live as well.


Just as with previous SLSA, its my understanding Part 22 will use the same OEM generated Manufacturer's Statement of Compliance to declare the aircraft conformity to Part 22 standards. No 3rd party inspect requirement.

From what I've seen and heard the "economics" of any Part 22 venture may well be within the reach of any enterprising party especially if using established designs or maybe previous TC'd aircraft that are no longer produced. And if someone can figure out a cost effective way for "simplified flight controls" you can throw in a few more options on the helicopter side as well.
This is all likely true. But that means the "enterprising party" has become a "manufacturer", even if they only produce a few planes a year. I would agree that it is much easier for an A&P to become such a manufaturer, making this statement false:
I still don't fully get how a 'factory' can build an RV-12 under S-LSA but an AnP cannot.
Assuming "RV-12" is a generic term for an airplane produced under the new MOSAIC rules.
 
But that means the "enterprising party" has become a "manufacturer", even if they only produce a few planes a year. I would agree that it is much easier for an A&P to become such a manufaturer
Definitely. Know of a couple mechanics and a small repair station that are looking into this potential option, but need to see what final guidance is released.
 
This is all likely true. But that means the "enterprising party" has become a "manufacturer", even if they only produce a few planes a year. I would agree that it is much easier for an A&P to become such a manufaturer, making this statement false:

Assuming "RV-12" is a generic term for an airplane produced under the new MOSAIC rules.
The RV-12 is already being produced under the existing LSA rules. MOSAIC simply widens the definition of LSA to faster and more complex aircraft (and gets rid of the term "LSA").

MOSAIC makes it a lot easier to manufacturer aircraft than under part 23, but it's still an expensive proposition to develop and certify a new design. Not something that's practical if you're only building a few planes.
 
Back
Top