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dp342b

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Derek
Would you still fly if your weight was over by 20 pounds? I know there's maximum gross weight and a maximum take off weight. In all reality, how far over is too much. I can understand 200 pounds overweight but 20 pounds? Hell I'd burn that off before top of climb.
 
dp342b said:
Would you still fly if your weight was over by 20 pounds? I know there's maximum gross weight and a maximum take off weight. In all reality, how far over is too much. I can understand 200 pounds overweight but 20 pounds? Hell I'd burn that off before top of climb.
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You’re working on your CFI rating, you tell us the correct answer.
 
I'm perpetually 20 lb overweight, but my plane doesn't take off unless it is under gross. I fly a Maule, so that's never a problem. I have 1015 lbs of useful load. Even with this load of gear for an airplane camping trip, I was 300 lbs under gross.
Packed-Maule.jpeg
 
dp342b said:
Would you still fly if your weight was over by 20 pounds?
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My personal weight or the airplanes total weight...? :yesnod:

After several years flying in Alaska, I NEVER flew over weight. I NEVER carried ''pocket gas''. My W&B was always correct. (well,except that one time)

And it depended on the plane...
 
I have seen Cessna 150s fly when obviously heavier than the maximum gross weight. I don't do it. Some hefty CFIs get away with it.

You may find it interesting that a C-130E has a max gross weight of 155,000 pounds. I once took off in Thailand at 160,000 pounds, and it was challenging. Climb rate about 200 feet per minute. It was a bad decision, based on the Lockheed "emergency war gross weight" of 175,000 pounds.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
You may find it interesting that a C-130E has a max gross weight of 155,000 pounds. I once took off in Thailand at 160,000 pounds, and it was challenging. Climb rate about 200 feet per minute. It was a bad decision, based on the Lockheed "emergency war gross weight" of 175,000 pounds.
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There had to be a lot more going on than a 3% overload.
 
I’d say it does depend on the airplane,some are much more forgiving on weight tolerance.I have acquaintances in Alaska who will fit anything they possibly can into a super cub and fly off with it,gross weight is a foreign concept to them.Is this legal? Obviously no.Make up your own mind how you feel about it and what your plane is capable of.

I once was talked into doing something I never should’ve done,by my CFI nonetheless.Checkride was canceled due to weather so we were ready to head for home but the catch was I was fueled for the DPE’s weight,not my instructors.In a Grumman Yankee nonetheless,a terrible performer when heavy.We had a long runway and we made it but I’m very ashamed of it to this day,it was stupid
 
20 lbs is 3-1/3 gallons of fuel. Why not fill slightly short and take off legal?

Based solely on physics, being slightly overweight isn't a big deal if the air temperature is cold and the DA is low but it is a very big deal if the air temperature is warm and the DA is high. The CG must also be clearly inside the CG range, the nearer to the center of the range the more forgiving and stable the airplane is.

Wolfgang Langewiesche flew a Cessna 140 across the continent of Africa in 1950. He ran 100 lbs overweight and petitioned the CAA to give him a permit to do so. There is a fantastic article about his trip in Air Facts Journal. It is one of my favorite aviation stories.

As PIC you are responsible for the safety of the flight. If you break the rules and then have an incident, you will be held liable and even if your violation of the rules was not a factor, it will be treated like that violation CAUSED the incident and your ADM will be called into question. Bye Bye Birdie! Is that possibility worth 3 gallons of fuel?
 
My AA1A was weight challenged - but I like gas. So I flew it near gross for years. Sluggish on very hot days for sure.

Then my partner did something all owners no not to do, he had a 45 year old plane weighed again. The empty weight went up 50 lbs. So Was I flying it over gross? Not legally, but physics says what it says.
 
Nope. I don’t have enough faith in the aircraft w&b numbers for my plane to come even close to either weight or cg limits, much less exceed them.
 
I don't think there's a flight school C150/152 that's not regularly being flown overweight. Most schools have a "full tanks policy", and if you add two 2026 average male adults in it you're guaranteed to be over.
And some DPEs turn a blind eye to it. A buddy went to talk with the DPE before the checkride, the guy looks him in the eyes and says "for your W&B calculations, put me at 220 lbs". Dude was close to 300.

Me, personally? Never flown over gross. Easy way for insurance to deny a claim, even if the extra weight wasn't the cause of the accident.
The plane has at least a 50lb margin (based on a TC'd version of my airframe/engine combo), I use that as my safety margin.
 
The placard says:
"Minimum Pilot weight, Seat Fwd. -138
Minimum Pilot weight, Seat Aft. -165
Máximum Pilot Weight -227"
Page four (of the AFM) says you must comply and "Seat ballast must be used if pilot weight is less than placard."
"NOTE 1." (from the Aircraft Specifications) says, "Suitable placards to cover the various pilot weights and positions must be installed in full view of the pilot as determined from the manufacturer's weight and balance report."
Authorization to calculate or certify new weights to reflect the 42 pounds of equipment added over the past 65 years, and the update of the placard can be found in FAA-H-8083-1, Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook.
I couldn't find any language changing what appears to me to be a Ministerial Duty, and not a Discretionary one.
 
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This thread wasn't as entertaining as I thought it would be. :/

Here I'll spice this up. Is it necessary to calculate your weight and balance for every single flight?

I'll argue no. Source: See PHAK page 10-4.

For example I know 100% in my airplane (I calculated it) that you can do 2x pilots at 215 pounds each, 50 pounds of bags, and full tanks. Conversely you can have 0 pound pilot and 10 gallons of fuel and load the baggage compartment to the placarded limit of 200 pounds and not exceed the aft CG. Thus I don't ever bother to actually calculate Weight and Balance unless I have someone over 215, more than 2 people in the plane, or more than 50 pounds of baggage.

Most GA aircraft are designed such that it is exceptionally hard to exceed the CG limits, thus you typically will see overloaded planes. Generally any 4 place aircraft cannot actually load 4 people and remain within weight. Thus if you ever have 4 people in your 4 place expect to get gawked at by other pilots.
 
Therookguy said:
Most GA aircraft are designed such that it is exceptionally hard to exceed the CG limits, thus you typically will see overloaded planes. Generally any 4 place aircraft cannot actually load 4 people and remain within weight. Thus if you ever have 4 people in your 4 place expect to get gawked at by other pilots.
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You obviously are not familiar with the CG range in a V-tail Bonanza. It's easily capable of carrying four adults and full fuel without being overweight. But the CG range is narrow and easily out of range to the rear if you put a lot of weight in that roomy cargo compartment.
 
Safe than sorry. I always err on the side of caution and stick to my certified gross weight. But just for what the FAA considers safe:

14 CFR § 91.323
(often referred to as the "Alaska Rule" or "Alaska Exception") permits specific propeller-driven aircraft operating in Alaska to exceed their maximum certificated takeoff weight by up to 15%, provided they meet stringent safety conditions, including a maximum weight limit of 12,500 pounds and compliance with specific positive maneuvering load factor requirements.
 
My Coupe holds 24 gallons and I burn 4 1/2 GPH. I always keep my tanks about 10 gallons less than full, giving me an extra 60 pounds of gross weight available.
 
Honestly, it depends on the airplane, situation, and pilot. The key is knowledge of performance impacts for that specific aircraft. Is the limitation based on climb performance, structural, CG/handling, or landing gear strength?

20 pounds over gross in an underpowered aircraft on a short field takeoff in high, hot, and dry conditions is different than 20 pounds OG in an aircraft with surplus climb performance taking off from a long runway on a cold day.
 
rockyfatcat said:
But just for what the FAA considers safe:
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The only value the FAA considers safe is the max gross weight limitation listed as a condition of certification. Unfortunately, you'll be hard pressed to find any AB 7a or CAR 4a certified aircraft flying commercially under 91.323 to even use it as an example. However, it doesn't mean there isn't a path to operate over the certified max gros weight, you just need FAA approved data to do it.
 
Bell206 said:
The only value the FAA considers safe is the max gross weight limitation listed as a condition of certification. Unfortunately, you'll be hard pressed to find any AB 7a or CAR 4a certified aircraft flying commercially under 91.323 to even use it as an example. However, it doesn't mean there isn't a path to operate over the certified max gros weight, you just need FAA approved data to do it.
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Just to spell things out. My 65 Aircoupe has a certified max gross weight of 1450 pounds. If I fly it up to Alaska I can legally fly it after I reach Alaska with a maximum gross weight of 1,667.5 pounds.

After leaving Alaska, the 1450 is once again my max gross weight.

I personally respect my 1450 limit. The OP had a question as to 20 pounds over gross. Technically it is not legal.

When they do ferry flights from California to Hawaii. How much past max gross do they have to overload it to make it that far?
 
dp342b said:
Would you still fly if your weight was over by 20 pounds? I know there's maximum gross weight and a maximum take off weight. In all reality, how far over is too much. I can understand 200 pounds overweight but 20 pounds? Hell I'd burn that off before top of climb.
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It's not so much how many pounds you're over, but what percentage. I'm going to address everything mainly at the bottom, but the first thing:

MauleSkinner said:
20 pounds overweight is the gateway drug.
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This. If it's OK to go 20 pounds over, why not 30 next time? If 30 works, how about 45? How about 75? This is normalization of deviance. It will kill you eventually, you just don't know when. Don't want to die? Don't even start unless you really know what you're doing and jump through the appropriate hoops to do it legally and safely.

bonefishpete said:
Over weight better than out of CG?
Honest question.
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Depends on whether the trees at the other end of the runway are FAA standard 50 footers or if they dared grow higher. Or if they're shaped like hills, or it's a hot day...

Generally speaking, provided you still have enough performance to get off the ground and not hit things, then yes it's better to be overweight and within CG than to be out of CG. One of them hurts performance, the other hurts controllability. I'd rather have crappy performance and be in control than vice versa.

Bob Noel said:
FAR 91.323
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... which is only good for 121 and 135 in Alaska, and those operators will have FAA approved procedures in place to ensure that the safety issues presented by operating over max gross are mitigated.


Now, on to the real answer, or at least, what you need to consider before you decide not to do this (hint):

1) What is the reason for the MGTOW being what it is? Is it structural, aerodynamic, certification, etc that is the limiting factor? For example, the 172N and the 172P are structurally the same, but the N's MGTOW is 2350lb while the P's is 2450lb IIRC. The difference is that the P model only allows flaps to be extended to 30 degrees instead of the N's 40. One of the certification requirements for part 23 is the ability to do a go-around with full flaps, and the 160hp 172 could only do that at 2350lb and 40 degrees of flaps, but could do it 100lb heavier with only 30 degrees of flaps. So if you're flying a 172N, can you probably safely fly a little over gross? Probably, IF you don't have to go around with full flaps.
2) Do you still have the performance necessary to complete the mission? Runway and climb performance is generally the tough part here, but depending on how far overweight you go there may be other factors at play... And of course your performance charts are only good for up to MGTOW. Famously, Piper test and delivery pilot Max Conrad flew a Comanche 250 nonstop from Casablanca, Morocco to Los Angeles in 1961. He was WAY overloaded, the aircraft had a MGTOW of 2800 pounds and he was loaded to 4800 with all of the extra fuel needed for that record-setting trip. He also needed nearly the entire 8,000 feet of runway just to become airborne and he barely cleared the fence.
3) Do you know how to calculate performance and V-speeds at weights above MGTOW so that you can extract the necessary performance from the plane? Linear extrapolation doesn't work - Climb performance, for example, is related to excess horsepower and you need at least a couple of good reference points in similar conditions to make this calculation. Some V-speeds stay the same, some will change, mostly with the square root of the ratio of the weights.
4) Will your W&B still be in balance even above gross? Most CG envelopes get narrower as you get heavier, so if you go too far over gross you'll be out of the CG envelope, period.
 
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rockyfatcat said:
Just to spell things out. My 65 Aircoupe has a certified max gross weight of 1450 pounds. If I fly it up to Alaska I can legally fly it after I reach Alaska with a maximum gross weight of 1,667.5 pounds.
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If you operate it under Part 135 and have the data to submit to the Certificate Holding office of the FAA for issuance of the OpSpec. For Part 91, no.
rockyfatcat said:
After leaving Alaska, the 1450 is once again my max gross weight.
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See Above.
rockyfatcat said:
I personally respect my 1450 limit. The OP had a question as to 20 pounds over gross. Technically it is not legal.
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Correct
rockyfatcat said:
When they do ferry flights from California to Hawaii. How much past max gross do they have to overload it to make it that far?
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Depends upon the airplane and again having approved data to submit to the FAA. It's an involved process.
 
Doc Holliday said:
If you operate it under Part 135 and have the data to submit to the Certificate Holding office of the FAA for issuance of the OpSpec. For Part 91, no.


See Above.


Correct


Depends upon the airplane and again having approved data to submit to the FAA. It's an involved process.
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The OP was asking is it safe? The answer wasn’t a legal question. It was a safety question. It wasn’t a question of will my aircraft stop flying?

Kinda like can I drive my car on the freeway at 120mph? Sure! Can you get in trouble? Sure! What’s the worst that could happed? FAFO. Play stupid games and win stupid prizes.

The ferry flight to Hawaii requires about 130% of MGTOW. I’ve had guys tell me that you could load a 182 100% full of bricks and it’d fly. Not that I would ever try it. If either was attempted I’m fairly certain that the envelope and flight characteristics would have changed.

I have had in depth discussions with engineers about some of the published numbers on certified aircraft. The factor that recurs is the conversation is safety margin.

Is it approved? No! What happens if you do it? FAFO. My aircraft is 60 years old. Has the safety margin changed? I dunno. Do I want to find out? Not really
 
rockyfatcat said:
If I fly it up to Alaska I can legally fly it after I reach Alaska with a maximum gross weight of 1,667.5 pounds.
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Not quite. One, you'd need a 135 certificate or work for the Dept of Int. in AK, and two, you'd need to add that max weight to your OpsLimits. And then once you wanted to leave AK you'd have to reverse that OpsLimit change. However, if you did want to fly over-weight in your Coupe, you could go to any local FSDO and get a waiver under a ferry permit for weights up to 10% over, or if higher than 10% you'll need to contact an FAA certification office to have that request approved. Have done those routes for a number if aircraft in the past. Regardless, without following those legal routes, the aircraft would not be airworthy, ie., not in a condition for safe operation, which is what I believe the OP was looking for.
 
It gets done all the time by pilots ferrying planes across the oceans along with adding extra fuel tanks. But they have lots of experience and document it (form 8130-6) , pretty sure OP does not.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Hard no.

Even 20 lbs under can be scary on a hot day in TX with high DA.
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I think that's what really gets people. Say you've got some guy up here in Wisconsin. He flies 250 pounds over gross on a cold winter's day and happens to be well inside CG limits, so the plane flies fine. In fact, he took off from a 3000 foot strip in flat terrain and had plenty of margin. The whole thing felt pretty good.

Then he flies it to TX on a solo trip in the summer. It's hot, but it's just him, and the plane flies fine, even from a 3000 foot strip with gently rising terrain. It went just fine...

So, he feels fine with over gross and he feels fine with high DA and he feels fine with a 3000 foot strip.

Then, he gets together with his buddy in TX and offers to fly his buddy's family around their local area. He's already topped off with cheap 100LL, but he's flown 250 pounds over gross no problem before, so he loads everyone up and he's 250 over gross on a hot day and maybe isn't inside CG limits this time, and they crash.

If you stay within all the limits, there are generally some safety margins. Some are slimmer than others. When you start to go past the limits, then all of the other limits are MUCH more important.

A ferry pilot who is going to legally fly a plane over gross is also going to use the performance charts and math to figure out how much runway the plane will really use at the actual weight. They'll add a 20% fudge factor on top of that. They'll use the 50/75 rule (you need to be at 75% of takeoff airspeed by 50% of the way down the runway or you're not going to make it), and find something 40% of the way down the runway (half of the 80% of the runway they're planning on) to use as an abort point. They'll do all that again for the distance to 50 feet, and they'll use the TORA, TODA, and ASDA numbers for the runway as appropriate to ensure sufficient performance. They'll use climb performance charts and more math to see what climb rate they can expect at their actual weight, and ensure they'll be able to outclimb surrounding terrain. They'll modify procedures and configurations for various phases of flight as appropriate to ensure safety. It's not a simple matter of "well, the plane can technically fly so I can do it." There's a lot of extra work that goes into doing it right...

And part of "doing it right" is doing it with minimum necessary crew, NOT loading up a bunch of friends and family (passengers) who are placing their lives in your hands.
 
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dp342b said:
Would you still fly if your weight was over by 20 pounds? I know there's maximum gross weight and a maximum take off weight. In all reality, how far over is too much. I can understand 200 pounds overweight but 20 pounds? Hell I'd burn that off before top of climb.
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This is one of those classic slippery-slope issues in aviation. Many of our rules are written as hard lines, but in day-to-day flying they can start to feel soft. The danger is that if you keep nudging the boundary - just a little here, just a little there - eventually the margin disappears, and statistics take over.

Take the 30-minute fuel reserve. The airplane doesn’t stop flying at 29 minutes. Similarly, will your passengers die if you skip your three takeoffs and landings prior to carrying passengers? But those requirements exist to protect margins, not to test how close we can get to them.

My recommendation is to practice discipline. Build the habit of saying no. Every time you choose the conservative option, you strengthen that muscle. Aviation has a long memory, and the NTSB database is full of pilots who convinced themselves that “just this once” would be fine.
 
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