Weight

MauleSkinner said:
Some people understand drag and lift. Don’t know what ya don’t know.
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Not very well I’m afraid

Surprised the ground effect as long as possible concept isn’t widely known here.

Go on supercub or backcountry pilot or the like and it’s pretty standard issue
 
decalogue said:
Not very well I’m afraid

Surprised the ground effect as long as possible concept isn’t widely known here.

Go on supercub or backcountry pilot or the like and it’s pretty standard issue
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Maybe, but every time video I’ve seen where people make excuses for needing rudder turns, the rudder turns aren’t necessary.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Maybe, but every time video I’ve seen where people make excuses for needing rudder turns, the rudder turns aren’t necessary.
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If you’re in ground effect you really want to bank?

However if there is no obstacle, not a curved strip, obviously no need for any turns
 
MauleSkinner said:
Fortunately I’m not that high.

So you’re doing uncoordinated turns at low speed? Be careful with that.
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So you’re on the ground?


If you’re operating in ground effect that’s how you make a turn, being uncoordinated is a normal state for an aircraft in a handful of stages of flight and nothing to be feared.
 
kyleb said:
If you're gonna drain tanks, there are a ton of things you should do for safety.

1) Do it outside the hangar.
2) Ground the aircraft.
3) Bond the aircraft to your defueling gear.
4) Use metal containers and funnels if possible.
5) Don't do it on a cool dry day.

You don't wanna be the guy who starts a fire that burns down a row of hangars.
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No Smoking
 
decalogue said:
So you’re on the ground?
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Occasionally, but if I’m using ground effect, I’m never half a wingspan high.


If you’re operating in ground effect that’s how you make a turn, being uncoordinated is a normal state for an aircraft in a handful of stages of flight and nothing to be feared.
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You do you, as they say.
 
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decalogue said:
Not very well I’m afraid

Surprised the ground effect as long as possible concept isn’t widely known here.

Go on supercub or backcountry pilot or the like and it’s pretty standard issue
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My flight instructor insists I stay in ground effect till end of runway. Sort of fun flying down 4000 of the 5000’runway.
 
Southpaw said:
My flight instructor insists I stay in ground effect till end of runway. Sort of fun flying down 4000 of the 5000’runway.
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Just make sure you read the ACS too and be sure you can fly that profile for your checkride.


Some stuff that work in the real world doesn’t translate well to folks who live the schoolhouse

What’s your CFIs background?
 
Southpaw said:
My flight instructor insists I stay in ground effect till end of runway. Sort of fun flying down 4000 of the 5000’runway.
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I was taught, "get as high as you can as quick as you can" within reason of course. If the engine quits, I don't want to be at a high rate of speed, near the ground, out of runway, and looking at the trees ...

That's my take. As @MauleSkinner noted above, "you do you."
 
Daleandee said:
I was taught, "get as high as you can as quick as you can" within reason of course. If the engine quits, I don't want to be at a high rate of speed, near the ground, out of runway, and looking at the trees ...

That's my take. As @MauleSkinner noted above, "you do you."
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This is the issue with the average semi low time CFI teaching the next CFI, just low time rinse and repeat.

Drag it out on the prop and pop the engine, let me get to nearly cruise speed in ground effect and pop the engine. Way rather have the energy, especially with the reaction time, what’s your spread between vx and stall (in the bank you’ll need to come back not end up in the hard wood trees)?
 
decalogue said:
Just make sure you read the ACS too and be sure you can fly that profile for your checkride.


Some stuff that work in the real world doesn’t translate well to folks who live the schoolhouse

What’s your CFIs background?
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Age 78 , 18,000 hours total time. 6000 hour Spray pilot, commercial pilot for Beer Distributor in King air, airport manager and instructor the past 30 years.
 
Southpaw said:
Age 78 , 18,000 hours total time. 6000 hour Spray pilot, commercial pilot for Beer Distributor in King air, airport manager and instructor the past 30 years.
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That tracks :)


Beer and king airs around pretty cool too
 
FastEddieB said:
To be fair, he said “get as high as you can as quick as you can". Which would imply Vy, not Vx. Right?
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Perhaps, but talking in the context of short field or soft field obstacle departures I’d think he was talking VX, ether way in the field it’s not the best way to do it in most of the fleet
 
decalogue said:
For a rental, that doesn’t really surprise me

I have found though that most planes run out of pilot well before they run out of plane

Obstacle takeoff is a good example, I’ll see many pilot yank the plane off the runway as soon as possible and pitch for VX
Vs
Breaking ground and staying in ground effect till the end and then transferring that energy into a modulated pitch back to vx
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Agree on skill/technique being most important. And I'll agree I'm not perfect.

Also agree that setting the pitch to what it is in a Vx climb right away is not a good plan. But I'm not going to accelerate past Vx, to bring me closer to the trees, while either not climbing or climbing at an intentionally lower angle than Vx would be, and then sometime later adjust pitch to Vx to get my best angle. That just doesn't make any sense. I'll stay neutral controls until rotate, then gently pitch up so that speed remains at Vx. Consistent with the POH as I read it, the instructors I've had the have flown X thousand times out of short field, and I believe physics. That's the technique part for me.

Agree that the rental thing could be it, perhaps some combination of prop, rigging, engine, and weight not being as good as POH on a new aircraft. The important thing to me is that I know how what I rent flies, I know what the margins are, and I know how to fly them safely.

Not going down the rabbit hole of turn back, except I'll say that in a PA-28-140 you're going to need some altitude to do that, because their power idle glide is something like that of a sewing machine.

As far as turns in ground effect of at low altitude on climb, I don't do that. If there's a significant crosswind, there's typically some headwind where I fly, so I'll be climbing out a little shallower angle of attack and at higher airspeed. I'm keeping wings level. If there's enough crosswind, it'll weathervane me around to kinda point to the wind. I'm good with that. I'm keeping the same rudder pressure I use for a normal climbout, ball centered, and I've found that in the simple slow aircraft I fly the turn kinda gives me a bit of a crosswind correction during the climb out. I love slips, but I'm not intentionally entering one on climb out, let alone a skid. But maybe that's just me.

Anway! All of this is just to go into the weeds on my statement that if you don't know the plane, don't trust the POH numbers for performance. But as I read that, I suppose I should figure that any pilot should be aware of that. I've spent too many words on this.
 
Are we saying you should stay in ground effect above Vx for a short field takeoff?
 
decalogue said:
If you have the room to, 1000% YES
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The implication of that statement is if you have room, accelerate in ground effect. But if you don't have room, climb at Vx. Which tells us that climbing at Vx is the better obstacle clearance strategy in the first place.
 
kyleb said:
The implication of that statement is if you have room, accelerate in ground effect. But if you don't have room, climb at Vx. Which tells us that climbing at Vx is the better obstacle clearance strategy in the first place.
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Nope

If you don’t have the room pitching for VX is your only option. Typically I don’t mess with places like this as they are rare anyways.

Even a extra 500’ of flat ground can build a good bit of energy and really increase that climb rate
 
decalogue said:
Nope

If you don’t have the room pitching for VX is your only option. Typically I don’t mess with places like this as they are rare anyways.

Even a extra 500’ of flat ground can build a good bit of energy and really increase that climb rate
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So now you’re saying that accelerating in ground effect and zooming up doesn’t give you better performance than the Vx climb to 50 feet?
 
decalogue said:
What part are you having trouble with?
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You said you get better obstacle clearance by zoom climbing. I said I didn’t think it would make that much difference at the 50 foot level. You said I should try it, which sounded to me like if I tried it I’d find I was incorrect. Now you say there’s no contest-a Vx climb will get you to 50 feet sooner.
 
MauleSkinner said:
You said you get better obstacle clearance by zoom climbing. I said I didn’t think it would make that much difference at the 50 foot level. You said I should try it, which sounded to me like if I tried it I’d find I was incorrect. Now you say there’s no contest-a Vx climb will get you to 50 feet sooner.
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I’ll give you a B-

So old saying aim at the trees vs mushing over them

If you even have a extra 500’ pushing that nose over and getting all the speed you can before pitching for VX is wise

Now if it’s full on at the limits (this is like <4% of flights for GA) then at that point yeah, break ground and pitch for VX and hope your engine is all she’s cracked up to be and Mother Nature doesn’t decide to smite you

Speed V breaking ground ASAP
 
decalogue said:
I’ll give you a B-

So old saying aim at the trees vs mushing over them

If you even have a extra 500’ pushing that nose over and getting all the speed you can before pitching for VX is wise

Now if it’s full on at the limits (this is like <4% of flights for GA) then at that point yeah, break ground and pitch for VX and hope your engine is all she’s cracked up to be and Mother Nature doesn’t decide to smite you

Speed V breaking ground ASAP
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A video of poor technique doesn’t exactly make your point either.
 
MauleSkinner said:
A video of poor technique doesn’t exactly make your point either.
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Yes, yes it does

if you have extra flat ground before the trees why wouldn’t you get nearly free energy vs hanging it off your prop
 
MauleSkinner said:
I dunno…making statements and refusing to explain or prove them seems like a helluva fun game for you.
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Yeah I have, even linked a free book (not mine) and quoted the important parts, if your ears are not open I don’t know what to say, other than I’m surprised I’m having to explain basic confined area stuff to someone with Maule in their name
 
dp342b said:
Would you still fly if your weight was over by 20 pounds? I know there's maximum gross weight and a maximum take off weight. In all reality, how far over is too much. I can understand 200 pounds overweight but 20 pounds? Hell I'd burn that off before top of climb.
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I would want to see the balance before I answered?
 
decalogue said:
Yeah I have, even linked a free book (not mine) and quoted the important parts, if your ears are not open I don’t know what to say, other than I’m surprised I’m having to explain basic confined area stuff to someone with Maule in their name
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At free it seems to still cost too much.
 
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