Van's RV-15 high Wing

[wanttaja]

No doubt you can build a J3 panel for that. Heck, I have everything to do that sitting on a shelf somewhere. But if you must have ADSB, that takes you well past the $2500 bogey.

Ohhh, yeah. I had to spend about $2000 just to install ADS-B in my Fly Baby, and I already *had* a transponder and altitude encoder.

Note that $2,000 is about 25% of the total value of my airplane.....

But of course, the typical J-3 (or Fly Baby) don't need ADS-B unless they're actually going to fly in Class B or C airspace....

Ron Wanttaja

 

[midwestpa24]

Probably not long until kit planes are unaffordable for most pilots. Seems every year it's farther and farther out of reach for more people.

Isn't the average 2 seat Van's upward of $200K+ when built? Seems like 2x to 2.5x the kit price for a finished plane. I remember fawning over a factory new 2004 Cessna 182T for $220K.

Van's planes are pretty barebones and many with austere interiors, meaning many pilots have squeezed cost out to get down to 2x the kit price for finished planes.

(next 3 posts are examples of "I knew a guy" who built an RV-x for $120K)

Depends a lot on the builder, and the expectations. I know one guy that got an RV-6 kit flying for about $35,000, using a used engine and prop, bare bones panel, and nearly non existent interior. At the same time I knew a guy that had $200k in a RV-7 that had an interior to rival the newest Cirrus.

 

[Warmi]

Ohhh, yeah. I had to spend about $2000 just to install ADS-B in my Fly Baby, and I already *had* a transponder and altitude encoder.

Note that $2,000 is about 25% of the total value of my airplane.....

But of course, the typical J-3 (or Fly Baby) don't need ADS-B unless they're actually going to fly in Class B or C airspace....

Ron Wanttaja

… or want to see other planes nearby which I personally find a lot more useful than being able to go to B/C airports.

 

[RyanShort1]

… or want to see other planes nearby which I personally find a lot more useful than being able to go to B/C airports.

ADS-B out doesn't guarantee that you will see them, unless you also have ADS-B in and use it effectively, nor does it meant that they will see you, for instance, if they are distracted. I hear lots of "got them on the fishfinder" calls, but that's not the same as also having and maintaining visual. I'm flying a plane with ADS-B out, but nothing IN, which means I'm still 100% dependent on seeing and avoiding.

 

[wanttaja]

… or want to see other planes nearby which I personally find a lot more useful than being able to go to B/C airports.

If you want to see other airplanes, don't fly a tunnel.

I've heard there's a new mounting system for ADS-B-In receivers. Attaches to the colon; apparently a more-natural location for some people.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Grum.Man]

If you go with a GRT display it has it's own built in GPS. Sadly these 2-10k vfr panels you can build today are way more accurate and safe than the full gyro IFR panel in my Venture that cost over 30k back in 1995.

 

[bflynn]

I'd guess the kit price will be in the same ball park as an RV14 40-45k.

I asked and was told the price would be between a 10 and 14, so around 50-55k. There's more finishing work done on the 15 than previous kits.

 

[CJones]

And if you DON'T go with all the fancy gee-gaws?

Dynon lists the Skyview SE (7" screen) at $1609 (but not currently available due to parts shortages). Airspeed, altitude, and heading provided, making the aircraft compatible with 91.205 as far as flight instruments (yes, need fuel gauge(s), tach, oil pressure, etc. to be fully compliant. Also turn-and-bank, slip/skid, rate of climb. Artificial horizon. G-Meter. Makes julienne fries.

WAY more capability than a VFR aircraft needs for, what... $2,500, by the time you're done?

Yes, *typical* installations might run $15-20K. But if you're just looking to equip a simple VFR aircraft, one can get by a lot cheaper.

Ron Wanttaja

I did my instrument training and IR checkride about 15 years ago with a Dynon D10 (pre -A model) and a single Garmin 430. We had round gauges in the panel for backup, but technically the D10 + 430 provided all primary flight instruments and nav equipment necessary for IFR flight. Drop the 430 out of the equation to replace it with a tablet or something else for VFR nav and cost drops dramatically.

The AV-30-E is showing ~$2k and that should get you your primary instruments and you get to say you have a glass panel.

 

[CJones]

I asked and was told the price would be between a 10 and 14, so around 50-55k. There's more finishing work done on the 15 than previous kits.

But it looks like a LOT less fiberglass!! WOOHOO!!!

 

[Grum.Man]

I asked and was told the price would be between a 10 and 14, so around 50-55k. There's more finishing work done on the 15 than previous kits.

Sadly I'm not surprised. Guess I'll be waiting to see what the Sonex high wing brings to the table.

 

[Daleandee]

Guess I'll be waiting to see what the Sonex high wing brings to the table.

They have some great airframes ... but I hope they don't power the high wing with a turbo Volkswagen engine.

 

[Grum.Man]

They have some great airframes ... but I hope they don't power the high wing with a turbo Volkswagen engine.

I'm sure they will since they sale VW engines. UL seems to always offer an alternative but I'm not totally sold on them either.

 

[tsts4]

Sadly I'm not surprised. Guess I'll be waiting to see what the Sonex high wing brings to the table.

So what exactly are you looking for? I don’t see the Sonex, RV-15, and Sling HW necessarily being head-to-head competitors, plus there’s other high wings on the market (eg Rans, the various Cub clones, Bearhawk, etc, etc).

 

[Grum.Man]

The S-21 is probably closest to checking all the boxes but it's expensive. Hopefully the Sonex high wing will provide similar performance on 100-180 hp at a more reasonable cost. Ideally my dream plane would be a side by side high wing all metal designed for 100-160 hp that is more skewed towards speed and light aerobatics than STOL and sleeping arrangements. Living on the east coast there is really no need for STOL capability. An RV7 will go anywhere you need to around here but I like a high wing for the shade and better sight seeing vis.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Living on the east coast there is really no need for STOL capability.

Arguably, the L part of STOL is an added safety feature, but one that can be replaced by a chute, which could more easily installed in an experimental (paperwork-wise, that is).

 

[Grum.Man]

Arguably, the L part of STOL is an added safety feature, but one that can be replaced by a chute, which could more easily installed in an experimental (paperwork-wise, that is).

Ironically more planes and people have been hurt by the L part of STOL than ones that benefited from it in an emergency.

 

[Salty]

The S-21 is probably closest to checking all the boxes but it's expensive. Hopefully the Sonex high wing will provide similar performance on 100-180 hp at a more reasonable cost. Ideally my dream plane would be a side by side high wing all metal designed for 100-160 hp that is more skewed towards speed and light aerobatics than STOL and sleeping arrangements. Living on the east coast there is really no need for STOL capability. An RV7 will go anywhere you need to around here but I like a high wing for the shade and better sight seeing vis.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/sling-high-wing.139119/#post-3288956

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Ironically more planes and people have been hurt by the L part of STOL than ones that benefited from it in an emergency.

I can’t argue that, as I have no data or knowledge otherwise. But that’s the only reason I bought my STOL.

 

[CaptainXap]

They have some great airframes ... but I hope they don't power the high wing with a turbo Volkswagen engine.

My guess is that they will do engine mounts for the Aerovee turbo and a Rotax. Possibly ULPower. Seems like Sonex used to be very resistant to supporting other engines because their whole ethos was about providing a very affordable plane to build (and the Aerovee is a very affordable engine at $8K, although you do have to assemble it yourself). Seems like they are changing their tune with that now - what with the official firewall forward for a Rotax on the Sonex/Waiex.

 

[Daleandee]

My guess is that they will do engine mounts for the Aerovee turbo and a Rotax. Possibly ULPower.

UL power & Rotax would be good choices. IMHO putting a turbo on an already overworked 80 hp VW engine isn't a wise decision. But my opinion only counts for my airplane ...

 

[Stewartb]

I read where the prototype had a front prop governor, so the thought was it has an IO-390. Does anyone know for sure?

 

[tsts4]

I read where the prototype had a front prop governor, so the thought was it has an IO-390. Does anyone know for sure?

Yes it has an IO-390 but the design criteria for the actual kit is 180-220hp so 360s will be an option. The past few posts talking UL, Rotax, and Volkswagen were aimed at the sonex high wing and not the RV-15.

 

[Warmi]

If you want to see other airplanes, don't fly a tunnel.
View attachment 109266
I've heard there's a new mounting system for ADS-B-In receivers. Attaches to the colon; apparently a more-natural location for some people.

Ron Wanttaja

Why don’t you drop your GPS as well, there are these nice landmarks outside your window and as a bonus you can avoid another colon attachment.

 

[Stewartb]

I don't know what a Thunderbolt IO-390 is going for today but Air Power's site shows a factory new 390 on the certificated side is $107K.

 

[Warmi]

ADS-B out doesn't guarantee that you will see them, unless you also have ADS-B in and use it effectively, nor does it meant that they will see you, for instance, if they are distracted. I hear lots of "got them on the fishfinder" calls, but that's not the same as also having and maintaining visual. I'm flying a plane with ADS-B out, but nothing IN, which means I'm still 100% dependent on seeing and avoiding.

Looking outside your window will not guarantee anything either but maybe, just maybe if we combine and utilize all the available help we can get - both technology-wise and procedural , we can do better.

 

[tsts4]

I don't know what a Thunderbolt IO-390 is going for today but Air Power's site shows a factory new 390 on the certificated side is $107K.

You can get new non-certified regular and Thunderbolt 390 Lycomings from Vans. The vanilla 390 starts at $49K and the Thunderbolt starts at $54K.

 

[Stewartb]

Van's customers can get. I can't. I ordered mine through Thunderbolt and ran the paperwork through Back Country Supercubs.

 

[tsts4]

Van's customers can get. I can't. I ordered mine through Thunderbolt and ran the paperwork through Back Country Supercubs.

OK. I don’t get your original post then— it lacks context. You seemed to want to make some kind of comparison but apparently not. If someone is building a 15 they are a Vans customer so it’s not an issue. Otherwise why are we talking 390 prices?

 

[Stewartb]

True. Mere mortals aren’t getting a 390 for those prices, and that’s my lot in life. And I do have a 390, so it seemed relevant. Add accessories and a composite prop and prop governor, it’s going to be a spendy firewall forward with or without Van’s pricing.

 

[wanttaja]

Why don’t you drop your GPS as well, there are these nice landmarks outside your window and as a bonus you can avoid another colon attachment.

I don't regularly carry a GPS. It gets put in the airplane when I'm going somewhere off the beaten path, or somewhere I've never been before that doesn't have obvious ground features to follow. I generally fly IFR (I Follow Roads). Don't think I've had the GPS in the airplane for about three years, now.

Besides, living in the Seattle area, we have one GREAT big navigation aid south of town.

If I'm north of Seattle, I just point the plane at the mountain and fly towards it (offsetting as necessary to miss Class B and other controlled airspaces). South of Seattle, I just follow I-5 north until the mountain is due East...then fly ~ENE to home.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[wanttaja]

Looking outside your window will not guarantee anything either but maybe, just maybe if we combine and utilize all the available help we can get - both technology-wise and procedural , we can do better.

I don't disagree with this. However, I think technology has sometimes become too much of a crutch. "No traffic showing on the ADS-B in receiver, hence there cannot be traffic in the area."

Two examples of that kind of mindset. My airport is located near the Seattle Class B airspace, and many pilots are rightfully cautious on how to approach my airport while avoiding the Class B. One guy several years ago was planning to fly in, and wanted help. I highlighted the major landmarks, and pointed out that he could follow this very obvious power line which came within a 1/2 mile of my field and didn't come near the Class B border. He was quite incensed by this. He wanted GPS coordinates to follow...he didn't want to be looking out the window for landmarks! While approaching a really busy uncontrolled field....

Second example is from about 35 years ago. I was flying the original Fly Baby prototype from the same airport. It had unshielded ignition and any attempt to use a radio was like strapping two popcorn poppers to your ears. So I flew NORDO for the seven years the flying club was in operation. Talked to a guy once who was QUITE incensed that I didn't have a radio. "If you don't make radio calls, I can't see you."

If you don't make radio calls, I can't see you.

Told the guy he was paying attention to the wrong Italian. Airplanes fly by Bernoulli, not Marconi.

I once wrote an article about flying NORDO: "Do It Yourself Stealth (and How to Survive It)." Despite having a radio in my current Fly Baby, I still use most of the advice included in the article; basically assuming that traffic DOESN'T see me. I still do the "NORDO Shuffle" on pattern entry, yawing and rocking wings to try to see any planes blocked by the aircraft structure (what little it is...). Ironically, I still suffer about the same rate of people taking the runway in front of me when I'm on short final.

ADS-B-in receivers are a valuable tool... when used as an adjunct, not a substitute, for the Mark I eyeball. We've seen high-profile midairs lately of planes WITH ADS-B out that still collided.

Remember: Tool, not crutch.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[WDD]

I want the R V15 to be Cardinal interior sized with the Sling High wing speed and fuel burn and the 182 ruggedness. Throw in a 3 month build - and do it all in for less than $200k

I have many wants LOL. I also am well aware this is truly a first world problem that I have.

Vans could sell a kit similar to model airplanes. Big pieces you assemble. You just need a giant bottle of kragle

 

[ktup-flyer]

Nothing that hasn’t been seen, but here are the pics I grabbed at Osh

 

[DaleB]

I **just** went through this exercise a couple days ago. If you scrounge used instruments, you can do round gauges pretty cheaply. The challenge for me is finding an airspeed indicator that doesn’t go to double or triple the Vne I have.

if you want cheap and small, Ron, look at the AV-30. I think it might actually do everything the Skyview SE will.

 

[wanttaja]

I **just** went through this exercise a couple days ago. If you scrounge used instruments, you can do round gauges pretty cheaply. The challenge for me is finding an airspeed indicator that doesn’t go to double or triple the Vne I have.

Yeah, a dedicated scrounger should be able to find steam gauges for much less than new, and certainly much less than glass. I think we're seeing fewer and fewer folks who want to do this, though.

if you want cheap and small, Ron, look at the AV-30. I think it might actually do everything the Skyview SE will.

OoooOooooh! Ron like! Especially like the standard instrument mounting AND the shallow depth of the unit. Two wires, pitot/static, and I'd be set. Have to see the readability of one in direct sunlight, though. Maybe it's time to lavish another $2,500 on my $8,000 airplane....

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Dana]

Hay-el, my GPS is a Garmin hiking unit, cost $100.

I started out that way, even build an airport database for it... but Avare on a cellphone is sooooo much nicer....

 

[kyleb]

I want the R V15 to be Cardinal interior sized with the Sling High wing speed and fuel burn and the 182 ruggedness. Throw in a 3 month build - and do it all in for less than $200k

I suggest that the $200K ceiling is pretty doable unless you are driven to go full gonzo on everything. OTOH, if you *must* have a $50K panel, an IO-390, and paint by the folks over in Gadsden, well...

 

[DaleB]

I suggest that the $200K ceiling is pretty doable unless you are driven to go full gonzo on everything. OTOH, if you *must* have a $50K panel, an IO-390, and paint by the folks over in Gadsden, well...

then you'll hit $250K.

 

[DaleB]

Yeah, a dedicated scrounger should be able to find steam gauges for much less than new, and certainly much less than glass. I think we're seeing fewer and fewer folks who want to do this, though.



OoooOooooh! Ron like! Especially like the standard instrument mounting AND the shallow depth of the unit. Two wires, pitot/static, and I'd be set. Have to see the readability of one in direct sunlight, though. Maybe it's time to lavish another $2,500 on my $8,000 airplane....

Ron Wanttaja

I'm thinking a nice relatively cheap panel would be...
AV-30
Used Mode C transponder - Garmin GTX327s are dirt cheap
uAvionix EchoUAT for ADS-B
uAvionix SkyFyx GPS
Garmin GTR200 for com and intercom. There are cheaper options, but the GTR200 is really, really nice.

An iFly 740B would be nice if you have any intention of ever installing an autopilot. Otherwise Avare on a tablet is fine. My old Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 is sunlight readable and runs AVare fine. This setup would give you GPS, ADS-B in and out, radio, full flight instruments, HSI, everything but engine monitoring... and I have one of these: 3AQ4KV | Westach

 

[asicer]

OoooOooooh! Ron like! Especially like the standard instrument mounting AND the shallow depth of the unit. Two wires, pitot/static, and I'd be set. Have to see the readability of one in direct sunlight, though. Maybe it's time to lavish another $2,500 on my $8,000 airplane....

That $8000 airplane is EAB, right? Be sure to check out the E(experimental) version of the AV30.