Twin training - "The Drill" after losing one

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Martin Pauly, Jan 4, 2019.

  1. Martin Pauly

    Martin Pauly Filing Flight Plan

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    I'm going through multi-engine training right now, working with Doug Rozendaal in Mason City, IA. Really enjoying the experience and his style of teaching; a few things stood out as probably being good reminders for all ME pilots and useful introductions for new ones.

    Here is "the Drill" Doug teaches as the immediate response to losing an engine:

     
  2. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    Nice.

    I show every one of my multi students Doug’s video of “the drill”.
     
  3. rwy7

    rwy7 Filing Flight Plan

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    Great video Martin. Thank you for sharing. Doug does a great job taking you through the drill and getting you to really internalize it before getting in the airplane. Looking forward to the Vmc demonstration.
     
  4. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    tough to concentrate on the content of the video with that sweet mustang in the background.
     
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  5. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Good stuff...

    His tone and pacing of instruction is good. Gives you a chance to both hear and absorb what he is saying and emphasizes his purposeful and deliberate method.
     
  6. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Here is that video for the others on PoA

     
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  7. Fallsrider

    Fallsrider Pre-Flight

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    I watched your video this morning while I was having my first cup of coffee. I know next to nothing about MEL, but it was interesting and educational to watch. Methodical repetition certainly has its place in training, whether flying airplanes, or many other disciplines. Training the mind and muscle memory what to do in a high-adrenaline event can save one's life.
     
  8. SethV

    SethV Pre-Flight

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    Really enjoy your videos, thanks for putting so much effort in. You and P1D are my favs.
     
  9. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    At 9:25, the instructor says "the ball should be pointed to the earth in coordinated flight" I'm having trouble with this statement.

    Where's the ball in a 45 degree bank? If it's pointed to earth, it's not centered.

    I'm sure I'm missing something here.
     
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  10. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

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    when flying on one engine in a twin, you are not exactly coordinated. This was for stable flight after feathering which is (according to the video) ~5 degrees of bank and half a ball out of center.
     
  11. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I was just going to post this exact same thing.
     
  12. B25Flyer

    B25Flyer Filing Flight Plan

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    Good catch, This statement should include the caveat "When flying straight." In a Turn the ball should remain approximately 1/2 diameter toward the good engine.
     
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  13. lancie00

    lancie00 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Great video. Thanks for sharing.
     
  14. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Line Up and Wait

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    I always liked the story about the jump pilot losing one on climbout with a load of jumpers on board. He gets it back on the ground and one of the jumpers say I knew it was serious because of the way you kept yelling what you did over and over. The pilot say oh that? That's just my memory aid for the engine loss procedure.

    Firewall everything (mixture/props/throttles)
    Underside clean (gear/flaps)
    Check which engine quit (dead foot)
    Kill that engine. (throttle/prop/mixture)

    The jumper says yeah but what about the other word? Oh that?

    Maintain airspeed (blue line or better)
    Execute the single engine checklist

    Its dumb. But its also been almost 18 years since I did the twin cert or got any kind of measurable twin time and I can still rattle it off without giving it much thought at all.
     
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  15. Jim_CAK

    Jim_CAK Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I also watched it on my Youtube feed this morning as I was getting ready for work. I expect to start Multi training in 2019. I like the instructor you are using. I hope to find someone like that when I start the rating.
    I have been subscribed to your videos for a while and enjoy them. I hope you keep them going.
     
  16. sarangan

    sarangan Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I have zero experience in ME, but this statement seems odd to me. How can the airplane be in co-ordinated flight with an off-centered slip/skid indicator? Even on a single engine airplane you can have asymmetric thrust, which you have to correct with rudder to "center the ball". Except for the magnitude of the asymmetry, how is that principle different in a multi?
     
  17. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

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    For that you'd need to ask a multi pilot or instructor. Paging @Ted DuPuis ! I've been exposed to enough to know that flying on one engine, they bank a little and fly slightly off center. Why exactly I can't say.
     
  18. FlyingTiger

    FlyingTiger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you fly with the ball centered without bank with one engine inop, you will actually be in a sideslip that adds drag, increases VMC and decreases performance so you are taught to bank up to 5 degree into the good engine and use rudder to eliminate the sideslip.
     
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  19. Eric Stoltz

    Eric Stoltz Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This is brilliant!

    Martin, thank you for putting in the work into these videos. I know how long it takes to edit.
     
  20. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    Typically 2-3 degrees bank will be zero sideslip. The FAA allows manufacturers to use 5 degrees to reduce Vmc/rudder requirements, so that's normally what's taught. A Baron will actually maintain heading at blue line with 7-8 degrees bank and no rudder input.
     
  21. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    The rudder input required to counter the yaw of the engine out also unbalanced the lateral forces...a little bit of bank the other way (into the operating engine) provides lateral force to balance the lateral force of the rudder, resulting in zero sideslip as indicated by a yaw string.

    A yaw string actually indicates slip or skid, where an inclinometer ball is an indirect indicator that is only reasonably accurate with symmetrical thrust. In a single engine airplane, centering the ball with asymmetric thrust doesn't actually provide zero sideslip, either, but a yaw string on the windshield doesn't work in propqash, so it's the best approximation you've got.
     
  22. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Doug makes a tremendously important point in the beginning, that most multi engine training is horribly inadequate.

    Anyone who's done transition training with me in a twin (I've never ended up doing initials) knows the rigor I put people through (paging @James_Dean ). Twins can be safer provided the pilot is proficient in single engine operations. Your normal weekend multi rating doesn't get you that at all.
     
  23. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    I Highly recommend that your MEI checkride be done with 2 FAA observers, and 1 DPE for the Oral. Then the Checkride be done with 1 FAA Observer and 1 DPE up front.
    That's how I did it, anyone else is a lightweight :)


    This has nothing to do with the topic onhand. This was a good video, and it is very important to think about what we will do, why and practice all the time.
     
  24. Lance F

    Lance F Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Just to have a bit of a discussion let's consider some other things. This "drill" seems pretty much what you want to do in case of a total engine failure right after rotation. But that's just one of countless engine emergency scenarios possible in a twin. Do you really want to jam all the levers forward if your engine seems to be losing power in cruise? I wouldn't. Would you really want to instantly identify/verify/feather even right after rotation if the problem engine was making even a little power? How about in the pattern? Short final?
    I am totally aware of the importance of memory items and have learned a bunch of them. However, we still need to evaluate what's going on and what the best response should be before mindlessly commencing any "drill" in my opinion. A light twin with total engine failure right at rotation is a big problem that needs to be dealt with quickly, but this "drill" is not the fits all cases of any kind of engine failure in any phase of flight solution. Shouldn't that be pointed out?
     
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  25. lancie00

    lancie00 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I guess I'd have to agree with you. I don't have my multi but if I did, and one engine quit at 11,000' in cruise, the first thing I'd do is start troubleshooting. Maybe that's not what the book says, but that's what make sense to me.
     
  26. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    Lance, I think the concept is that performing “the drill” at any stage of flight really wouldn’t hurt and is a simple memory item. Once running through the memory items then one can take a breath and better assess the situation.

    But you’re right. It should be mentioned that the drill isn’t a one size fits all fix everything solution.

    As a somewhat related side note, one of the things I dislike the most about the typical multi training is that every engine “failure” is treated as a complete failure. I think many pilots may not detect a slight loss of thrust on one engine on the takeoff roll until it is too late to reject the takeoff because it never really gets discussed in training and people don’t prepare for it.
     
  27. Arbiter419

    Arbiter419 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Great video, really enjoyed it and excellent instruction from Doug.
     
  28. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    It was lesson number one. The poor guy just walked in the door, maybe give him until lesson number two before he covers every single plausible engine out scenario??
     
  29. Challenged

    Challenged Pattern Altitude

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    On those planes that have auto-feather, how is that generally triggered?
     
  30. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    If I had an engine failure at cruise in a light twin, which I have, my first action would not be to troubleshoot. It would be to ensure the airplane remains in controlled flight and if possible maintain altitude. When I lost the engine I did my version of “the drill”. Once we were flying properly and the engine was feathered and secured, then on to the next priority....
     
  31. Martin Pauly

    Martin Pauly Filing Flight Plan

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    And Doug says pretty much that. At the beginning of the flight portion of this video (at 22:57), he describes a scenario where we are at altitude, we are not happy with one of the engines, we tried to make it better, but in the end we are not happy with it and decide to shut it down. That's different from failure right after gear retraction, but Doug's point is that ONCE THE DECISION TO SHUT DOWN IS MADE, the drill is a good way to go about it.
    Doug also makes an exception for when we are on approach (I don't recall if that's in "The Drill" video, but for sure it's in the longer ground school one you can get to from the end of "The Drill"). You wouldn't raise flaps and gear on the approach after glideslope intercept, naturally - you'd continue the approach to landing.
     
  32. Lance F

    Lance F Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Low torque
     
  33. BrianNC

    BrianNC Pattern Altitude

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    Gonna trade the Bo in on a Baron? :)
     
  34. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Lance, before Doug goes into "the drill" he says something along the lines of "Now if we have an engine failure in cruise then we'll have time to troubleshoot. But if it happens right after takeoff, you have to have in your head exactly what to do." (quoting from memory)

    You are, of course, correct that in cruise/at altitude/etc. first is maintaining control of the airplane and then troubleshooting, especially since 99% of the time the engine failed because the pilot forgot to change the fuel selector.

    As Lance said, low torque. On the TPE-331 it's not an autofeather but "NTS" (which performs a similar function but doesn't actually feather the prop automatically), and it's based on the propeller driving the engine and not vice versa. I think on PT-6s they do it a bit differently.
     
  35. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    I think this is a point that people often miss and I’ve heard and read Bob Gardner talk about. You have to use some common sense here.i normally prompt my students by asking what they will do in certain situations, it is common after discussing the takeoff failures, to move straight it what happens if we lose an engine on approach. Obviously everything forward may not be appropriate, or it maY be if you are at gross, high DA and dirty. But many times it isn’t. Perhaps just bumping the power up a little is appropriate to maintain the glideslope and make it easier to determine which engine died.

    Another example, if the engine dies at 100ft aGL on landing, well hopefully you aren’t setup to land short because just easing power back and landing the beast might be a far better option than removing your hand and trying to do 5 other things... It Depends, but given the criticality of failures on takeoff at at low levels, it’s a good mantra for new Mel students.
     
  36. Martin Pauly

    Martin Pauly Filing Flight Plan

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    No, at least not anytime soon. But it's always fun to learn something new.
    And who knows, should an opportunity to fly a twin one day present itself, I'll be ready.
     
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  37. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Line Up and Wait

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    As someone who has flown with Doug, and taken checkrides with him, he does know his stuff. His flying career started out flying night freight in Twin Beeches and DC-3s in the upper midwest. He has a lot of experience, and a lot of interesting stories.