Turn on course / turn out - what exactly does that mean?

Velocity173 said:
Doesn’t matter that ole Kojak (RIP) had his interval (C-2), he was given a specific spot to do the carrier break. He overflew that spot, hence the tower bugging him to “start your break.” He was wrong to jump on the tower for telling him to break. It’s their job.
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C'mon now, he's a prima dona Blue Angels pilot. He's the only one in the sky and is oblivious to other traffic on final that the tower knows about. He also doesn't seem to realize that although he may have "had the interval" with the guy he was following, the guy behind him doesn't have HIS interval because he didn't break where the tower told him to. I will admit though, the Blue Angels are more humble than the Blunderturds. Crowds may love them but oh what a pain in the ass they can be for controllers. Every time they fly in for an air show they have to fly around with their smoke on to "get the lay of the land" before they land. This often means we have to move everyone else out of their way. They think that their unscheduled impromptu fly by is completely warranted.
 
Lindberg said:
The vast majority of towers in the US are not responsible for separation in the traffic pattern.
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That sounds like a distinction without a difference. The purpose of a control tower is to prevent collisions otherwise why have them. On the other hand how can they be the ultimate authority for doing so when they're perched miles away on the ground? So they do the best they can to keep airplanes apart within their limitations. As pilots we can help them out by utilizing standard traffic patterns and procedures in the absence of specific alternative instructions.

Lindberg said:
So you're creating an artificial distinction between untowered and most towered fields. See and avoid.
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No, standard traffic patterns apply at controlled fields too. The direction is published, the standard altitude is 1000' and the AIM has separate sections for operations at towered fields, at non-towered fields and in traffic patterns. I believe every certified airport, tower or not, must have a traffic pattern for every runway on file with the FAA. So I don't see how you see me creating a distinction between towered and non-towered airports.
 
dtuuri said:
That sounds like a distinction without a difference. The purpose of a control tower is to prevent collisions otherwise why have them. On the other hand how can they be the ultimate authority for doing so when they're perched miles away on the ground? So they do the best they can to keep airplanes apart within their limitations. As pilots we can help them out by utilizing standard traffic patterns and procedures in the absence of specific alternative instructions.

No, standard traffic patterns apply at controlled fields too. The direction is published, the standard altitude is 1000' and the AIM has separate sections for operations at towered fields, at non-towered fields and in traffic patterns. I believe every certified airport, tower or not, must have a traffic pattern for every runway on file with the FAA. So I don't see how you see me creating a distinction between towered and non-towered airports.
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There is no "on file with the FAA". I have had towers send me left, right, down the middle, enter crosswind, enter upwind, straight in.... Anything and everything.
The only constraints I have seen to tower doing whatever are noise abatement, airspace (e.g. trying taking off from KTEB heading north), geography (think Aspen). Otherwise, towers do whatever makes the most sense for them, and it is usually sequencing.
For example, in May I went to Santa Fe. The Tower had me come in on base, to a roughly two mile final, because he had two planes in pattern; on different runways with one practicing crosswind landings, the other landing with a tailwind opposite to what I was being vectored too and a plane behind.

Tim
 
dtuuri said:
Suppose a student calls for taxi instructions...and subsequently is simply cleared for takeoff by the tower. If he immediately turns on course
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I thought the discussion was about how to handle a "turn on course" instruction, I mean it's even in the subject line. A clearance for takeoff with no turn is a different instruction. This is like an argument where one person says "an apple is red" and someone else replies "no, it isn't, because a banana is yellow."

"N12345, runway 1, cleared for takeoff" with no other instruction, I would follow an AIM traffic pattern, or ask for a turn once airborne.
 
dtuuri said:
That sounds like a distinction without a difference. The purpose of a control tower is to prevent collisions otherwise why have them.
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Not to be pendantic, but for a guy who so deeply quotes the AIM in these threads, you are fully aware at most towered airports that’s only an advisory role for a controller, not a responsibility. Traffic avoidance is my job when I am flying VFR.

3.2.5.e Class D Airspace

Separation for VFR Aircraft. No separation services are provided to VFR aircraft.​


dtuuri said:
So they do the best they can to keep airplanes apart within their limitations. As pilots we can help them out by utilizing standard traffic patterns and procedures in the absence of specific alternative instructions.
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Yet we can be completely aligned here, if I could substitute “communicate intentions” for “utilize standard traffic patterns and procedures” where none exist.
 
Timbeck2 said:
C'mon now, he's a prima dona Blue Angels pilot. He's the only one in the sky and is oblivious to other traffic on final that the tower knows about. He also doesn't seem to realize that although he may have "had the interval" with the guy he was following, the guy behind him doesn't have HIS interval because he didn't break where the tower told him to. I will admit though, the Blue Angels are more humble than the Blunderturds. Crowds may love them but oh what a pain in the ass they can be for controllers. Every time they fly in for an air show they have to fly around with their smoke on to "get the lay of the land" before they land. This often means we have to move everyone else out of their way. They think that their unscheduled impromptu fly by is completely warranted.
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Exactly. If he needed to extend out past the numbers because his interval was too tight, then he should’ve requested to do that. Personally, if I were in tower and there wasn’t any one other than those two, I would’ve just issued “follow the C-2 mid left downwind, carrier break approved.” But there’s no telling what his traffic load was at the time.

When the Blues came to our base, their arrival maneuvers were covered under the TFR. They showed up on Thursday, rolled right into their arrival maneuvers, shutdown and then went right back out a couple hours later for a practice show. Of course you still gotta keep everyone clear of the TFR.
 
dmspilot said:
I thought the discussion was about how to handle a "turn on course" instruction, I mean it's even in the subject line. A clearance for takeoff with no turn is a different instruction. This is like an argument where one person says "an apple is red" and someone else replies "no, it isn't, because a banana is yellow."

"N12345, runway 1, cleared for takeoff" with no other instruction, I would follow an AIM traffic pattern, or ask for a turn once airborne.
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I entered the conversation in post #4 responding to the OP's "Bonus question" which I took to be a stand alone question regarding the existence of any rules applicable to departures.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Not to be pendantic, but for a guy who so deeply quotes the AIM in these threads, you are fully aware at most towered airports that’s only an advisory role for a controller, not a responsibility. Traffic avoidance is my job when I am flying VFR.

3.2.5.e Class D Airspace

Separation for VFR Aircraft. No separation services are provided to VFR aircraft.​
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Yes, of course. That's what I meant by, "On the other hand how can they be the ultimate authority for doing so when they're perched miles away on the ground?" There's no way a controller looking out a window far, far away can be more responsible for separation than the pilot(s) involved.
 
tspear said:
There is no "on file with the FAA".
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​
Part 157 Notice of Construction, Alteration, Activation and Deactivation – Central Region (faa.gov)

Who Must File?
§ 157.3 - Each person who intends to accomplish any of the following actions must notify the FAA.
  • ...
  • Change any traffic pattern or traffic pattern altitude or direction
That said, all those other examples you gave were authorized deviations from the filed pattern, imo, and that's a good and efficient thing.
 
dtuuri said:
I entered the conversation in post #4 responding to the OP's "Bonus question" which I took to be a stand alone question regarding the existence of any rules applicable to departures.
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Taking the question out of context does indeed change the meaning. The OP asked what "turn on course" means, then asked how soon you can turn, it sure didn't seem like they were meant to be completely separate and unrelated questions to me.
 
dmspilot said:
Taking the question out of context does indeed change the meaning. The OP asked what "turn on course" means, then asked how soon you can turn, it sure didn't seem like they were meant to be completely separate and unrelated questions to me.
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Right, he asked for the "rule" and since the AIM doesn't address altitudes for VFR turns on course the naked rule was provided verbatim. What would happen if the OP maintained runway heading all the way to 300' below pattern altitude before turning? Anything bad? Nope. The tower could say, if an earlier turn had been anticipated, "Please start your turn now, so I can release the G-V." On the other hand, starting a turn before the end of the runway could ruffle some feathers or worse.

Right now I'm more interested in what all the tower operators expect and why. We've heard from one, what do others expect? Are VFR and IFR departures held to the same standard?
 
dtuuri said:
Right, he asked for the "rule" and since the AIM doesn't address altitudes for VFR turns on course the naked rule was provided verbatim. What would happen if the OP maintained runway heading all the way to 300' below pattern altitude before turning? Anything bad? Nope. The tower could say, if an earlier turn had been anticipated, "Please start your turn now, so I can release the G-V." On the other hand, starting a turn before the end of the runway could ruffle some feathers or worse.

Right now I'm more interested in what all the tower operators expect and why. We've heard from one, what do others expect? Are VFR and IFR departures held to the same standard?
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IFR they tell you what to do, either as you take off, or through your clearance.
 
dtuuri said:
What is it, then, that they DO expect when simply cleared for takeoff? Left turn? Right turn? Straight out? At what altitude are they expected to make any turn? They must have SOME expectation in order to control other traffic.
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there is no expectation for VFR. We will issue restrictions when we feel it is necessary. Such as “fly runway heading” or “ continue upwind until advised” Or some such. A controller will not (if he’s paying attention) simply say left or right turn approved cleared for takeoff unless he can tolerate you doing so considering his other traffic. He does not expect you to do something stupid like turning hard left midfield at 100 feet over hangers or ground traffic. But he has no problem with you turning left or right if he says so. In fact he generally couldn’t care less unless other traffic is involved in which case he would have issues other instructions to resolve that issue ( again, if he’s paying attention). The exception is when you will be shipped to departure for radar service if required then, again, he will issue instructions as per the coordinated procedure with the radar controller

IFR departures arei another story.
Tex
 
Dave S. said:
there is no expectation for VFR. We will issue restrictions when we feel it is necessary. Such as “fly runway heading” or “ continue upwind until advised” Or some such. A controller will not (if he’s paying attention) simply say left or right turn approved cleared for takeoff unless he can tolerate you doing so considering his other traffic. He does not expect you to do something stupid like turning hard left midfield at 100 feet over hangers or ground traffic. But he has no problem with you turning left or right if he says so. In fact he generally couldn’t care less unless other traffic is involved in which case he would have issues other instructions to resolve that issue ( again, if he’s paying attention). The exception is when you will be shipped to departure for radar service if required then, again, he will issue instructions as per the coordinated procedure with the radar controller

IFR departures arei another story.
Tex
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Thank you, nice reply. Let's say you have two aircraft ready for takeoff and the first one will make closed traffic and the second one asks for a turn out in the same direction as the closed traffic. Do you grant the request or does it depend on the spacing? For example, if the second plane departs immediately after the first one, do you clear him for the turn but not if there's enough time lapsed for the first plane to possibly be returning on downwind? I would think in that scenario your decision would depend on your expectation of how soon the second aircraft would start their turn—right away being better, with 400' AGL kind of iffy.
 
dtuuri said:
Thank you, nice reply. Let's say you have two aircraft ready for takeoff and the first one will make closed traffic and the second one asks for a turn out in the same direction as the closed traffic. Do you grant the request or does it depend on the spacing? For example, if the second plane departs immediately after the first one, do you clear him for the turn but not if there's enough time lapsed for the first plane to possibly be returning on downwind? I would think in that scenario your decision would depend on your expectation of how soon the second aircraft would start their turn—right away being better, with 400' AGL kind of iffy.
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“Mooney 12345, traffic is a Cessna on left crosswind closed traffic, runway 5, cleared for takeoff.” No separation standard exists, issue traffic and clear them. No need for departure instructions.
 
Velocity173 said:
“Mooney 12345, traffic is a Cessna on left crosswind closed traffic, runway 5, cleared for takeoff.” No separation standard exists, issue traffic and clear them. No need for departure instructions.
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So, you would ignore the second pilot's request for a left turn on course (if it was left)?
 
dtuuri said:
So, you would ignore the second pilot's request for a left turn on course (if it was left)?
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No, this happens all the time at the delta I fly out of. A trainer will take off, then I'll be next in an SR22. The controller will clear me for takeoff, tell me that the traffic ahead is turning the same direction, and tell me to wait until I am past that traffic before beginning my turn.
 
Wow. 3 pages?

1) Tell Tower you where you want to go - "VFR north"
2) Tower will say "Right turn", etc. You want left? Ask for it. They can say yes or no.
3) Fly runway heading until you are 300 feet below pattern altitude. Then turn the way they told you onto your course.
 
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dtuuri said:
Right, he asked for the "rule" and since the AIM doesn't address altitudes for VFR turns on course the naked rule was provided verbatim. What would happen if the OP maintained runway heading all the way to 300' below pattern altitude before turning? Anything bad? Nope. The tower could say, if an earlier turn had been anticipated, "Please start your turn now, so I can release the G-V." On the other hand, starting a turn before the end of the runway could ruffle some feathers or worse.

Right now I'm more interested in what all the tower operators expect and why. We've heard from one, what do others expect? Are VFR and IFR departures held to the same standard?
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I spent 9 years or so of my time as a Controller at Towers. I can’t ever remember any of the problems with departures being thrown around here. Never saw a plane turn early before the runway end. Rarely, if ever, had to ask a pilot what they were gonna do after departure. They told ya what they were gonna do when they were ready to go. I usually just said approved and cleared for take off. Sometimes threw in something like don’t over fly the college. That was a noise abatement thing. Sometimes something like start your turn as soon as practicable. This would be because of opposite direction inbound traffic or to make way for a hot rod departing after. Yeah, yeah, I know all bout that separation not required for VFR’s and all that jazz. Just keeping the flow going in an orderly manner and helping to make life a little less dramatic for the faster guy behind. Sometimes telling someone wanting a straight out to turn and then offset to the left or right to make way for opposite direction landing traffic. Stuff like that.
 
dtuuri said:
So, you would ignore the second pilot's request for a left turn on course (if it was left)?
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Absent departure instructions, their left turn out is already approved. A clearance for take off doesn’t mean fly runway heading until leaving the class D. I’d expect them to get to pattern altitude off the end of the runway and then turn left on course. If they turn earlier than the runway end, oh well, I issued the traffic. Ball is in their court.
 
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I keep seeing this repeated mention of 300ft below TPA. I missed it, where is that coming from in the AIM (I highly doubt this is a reg, so I am guessing).
I doubt most traffic actually comes close to this.

Tim
 
I think some on here want to hear something standardized on how a class D tower, or ATC for that matter operates. We go through this every time on POA when an ATC question is brought up. “Well my tower does this…” No two towers operate the same and no two controllers within the tower use the same techniques.

The is all about what phraseology is required vs what phraseology is optional. They have to issue a clearance for take off on a runway IAW the .65 that includes ID, runway, intersection (if applicable), wind (if applicable) and “cleared for take off.” Thats a given. There’s no requirement though to issue specific departure instructions with every clearance. No requirement to say “left turn out approved” just because that’s the direction the pilot is requesting. Even issuing a traffic call like the example above is subjective. One controller might issue it while another might not.

While ATC has a crapload of rules and some aren’t open to interpretation, there’s a lot of technique amongst different controllers.
 
tspear said:
I keep seeing this repeated mention of 300ft below TPA. I missed it, where is that coming from in the AIM (I highly doubt this is a reg, so I am guessing).
I doubt most traffic actually comes close to this.
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AIM 4-3-3, under figure 4-3-2, heading EXAMPLE--Key to traffic pattern operations;

5. If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude.​

This puts the aircraft at traffic pattern altitude at about the time it reaches downwind and prevent it from still climbing on downwind which can create a collision hazard with traffic already at pattern altitude on downwind where neither aircraft has a good view of the other.

I've found a lot of people have been taught to turn crosswind at 500' AFL. This comes from several decades ago when most traffic patterns were 800' AFL in many parts of the country. 800' - 300' = 500' AFL. The 500' has been passed down over the years and, when most TPAs changed to 1000' AFL, people stuck with 500' without realizing the AIM guidance was 300' below, not 500' above.

But, none of that is relevant to this conversation as the question was about departing the airport area, not remaining in the pattern.
 
@Larry in TN

Your final sentence is the most interesting to me. The provision is specific to staying in the pattern; and others seem to try and apply to other conditions.
FYI, I was taught to turn crosswind when I could make TPA before downwind.

Tim
 
tspear said:
@Larry in TN

Your final sentence is the most interesting to me. The provision is specific to staying in the pattern; and others seem to try and apply to other conditions.
FYI, I was taught to turn crosswind when I could make TPA before downwind.

Tim
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I think he was referring to the OP where it was about 'proceeding on course.' The how soon do you make your turns was the bonus question. Pattern ratology evolved soon in the thread
 
Posts like this make me wonder how much airport diversity there is among many pilots. Sometimes it seems that pilots don’t get far from there own airport. Anytime something like this comes up it will be debated back and forth about how it should be, or how it is at certain airports, or AIM references.

What goes for an uncontrolled podunk 1 plane in the pattern, or sleepy class D does not equal what goes on at uncontrolled that are an absolute zoo, or a Class D that has flight training iced in with corporate jets. But the debates and arguments that happens on this forums always makes me wonder how much pilots are getting out there and experiencing the different airports compared to their home airport.
 
TommyG said:
Posts like this make me wonder how much airport diversity there is among many pilots. Sometimes it seems that pilots don’t get far from there own airport. Anytime something like this comes up it will be debated back and forth about how it should be, or how it is at certain airports, or AIM references.

What goes for an uncontrolled podunk 1 plane in the pattern, or sleepy class D does not equal what goes on at uncontrolled that are an absolute zoo, or a Class D that has flight training iced in with corporate jets. But the debates and arguments that happens on this forums always makes me wonder how much pilots are getting out there and experiencing the different airports compared to their home airport.
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When you read the FAA survey data, you are correct in your assumption most pilots do not travel very far.

Tim
 
dtuuri said:
The Departure Leg was described in Post #4:
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Post number 4 defines the term Departure and Departure Climb,
But the OP question was not about ‘climb’, but when to “turn”.
 
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