TNFlyGirl Final NTSB report issued

[kyleb]

According to the final report, she got her PPL in 160HP Cherokee 140, then promptly sold it to buy the Debonair, a plane with one hundred more HP and retractable gear. The report didn't mention if she ever received either a High-Performance or Complex endorsement. I can believe she flew the cherokee well enough for a DPE. I have questions about her in the Debonair. According to the final report, her airspeed and altitude varied wildly for about 30 minutes before she crashed. Either those drugs were new and absolutely destroying her, or she never was competent enough for that plane.

Does anyone know if she was legal in the Debonair? That is, did she have the complex and HP endorsements required to fly it?

To me the Deb vs Cherokee thing is a nonstarter. She didn’t crash because of retracts or an extra 100 hp. She crashed because she couldn’t fly the airplane at the skill level required for a solo student.

 

[Palmpilot]

just curious what flying at night has to do with knowing what direction to go?

I was navigating by looking out the window, and it's easier to get disoriented at night. (When she made her comment, I checked the DG and realized my error.)

 

[TrueCourse]

…It doesn't appear this last flight was intended to drop off the plane, so maybe the intent of letting the pitch excursions was to provide a good description of the autopilot's deviations to the destination shop. Not disconnecting and then hand-flying may have been intentional. And she ignored (or forgot about) airspeed management while screwing around. Then stalled and spun.

Dropping off a plane for panel work at another airport takes having all the necessary parts and equipment already there, an appointment, and a friend with a plane to willing to pick you up and fly you home. Or airline tickets. And maybe luggage for a stay. None of that was ever mentioned in the NTSB report, or by anybody else.

IMO this flight may have been taken to provide an evaluation of the current condition of autopilot's status, and recommendations as to what her options were. Only then could the shop create an estimate.

She told the flight school manager before departure she was taking it to get a new avionics overhaul. I have to believe that. But, I don’t doubt she may have been experimenting with the old AP on the way down before things got out of hand.

After seeing the images of the crash site I’m not sure luggage would have been identifiable or pertinent to even mention.

“Then stalled and spun.” Is that a new way to describe a missile flying straight into the ground at high speed?

 

[KE5BM]

She logged 182.6 hours of dual instruction with 193.2 hours total flight time before receiving her private plot certificate... I know many take 70-100 hours but 182.6?

Alprazolam was detected in liver tissue at 222 ng/g (Do Not Issue/Do Not Fly medication)

Alpha-hydroxyalprazolam was detected in liver tissue at 57 ng/g (Do Not Issue/Do Not Fly medication)​

Trazodone was detected in liver tissue at 286 ng/g (Do Not Issue/Do Not Fly medication)
Buspirone was detected in liver tissue at 55.5 ng/g) (Do Not Fly medication. w/ CNS depressants = sedation and cognitive slowing)
Ondansetron (disqualifying medication), propranolol, fexofenadine, and azacyclonol (and Oxymetazoline) were detected in liver

She was beyond impaired. The combination of potent sedatives (alprazolam and its metabolite), a sedating antidepressant, and additive CNS-active drugs created a state where safe functioning, especially flying, was highly unlikely if not impossible.

Pilot Debrief did a video on this before the Final Report (awaiting the updated video)...

I think this whole situation was not just a one-time thing and sadly this time it ended tragically for her and her father.

To say nothing about flying...these types walk (and drive) among us each and every day. Scares the ever-lving $#!& out of me.

 

[Rick A]

“Then stalled and spun.” Is that a new way to describe a missile flying straight into the ground at high speed?

Nah, no new way, just a memory lapse. Didn’t pay any attention to the ending of that last down wave. Can only wonder why it didn’t go up like the rest of them…

 

[texasclouds]

Considering she had 182.6 hours of dual instruction...

For perspective…I have 153 hrs of dual received, ATP MEL, Commercial SEL, CFI(I), 5000 hrs TT…

 

[TrueCourse]

Nah, no new way, just a memory lapse. Didn’t pay any attention to the ending of that last down wave. Can only wonder why it didn’t go up like the rest of them…

Maybe she was fighting nose down trim the whole time.

But, I noticed this:

Prelim: “the elevator trim was measured and correlated to about 5°of trim tab deflection in the nose down direction.”

Final Report: “measurement of the elevator trim actuator correlated to a 5° deflection of the left trim tab in the trailing edge down direction”

Wreckage Examination (docket): “the trim on the left elevator that separated during impact was measured, indicating a 5°trim tab down.”

 

[bbchien]

Holy C__p. Look at 10:06. That is an impaired person.
The only way to have gotten there with those meds is to have lied on her medical.

 

[FlightmechH3]

That final minute was a doozy. 10k minute at +240kts. So about 40 sec to realize they were toast and had a front row seat.

This is all on her chasing clout and not being responsible as a PP. Her drug use helps explain her decision making skills in her videos.

Now she's no longer a danger to society.

 

[Rick A]

Maybe she was fighting nose down trim the whole time.

But, I noticed this:

Prelim: “the elevator trim was measured and correlated to about 5°of trim tab deflection in the nose down direction.”

Final Report: “measurement of the elevator trim actuator correlated to a 5° deflection of the left trim tab in the trailing edge down direction”

Wreckage Examination (docket): “the trim on the left elevator that separated during impact was measured, indicating a 5°trim tab down.”

Five degrees of down-trim doesn’t seem like too much to handle, regardless of the airspeed. As the speed picks up in the dive it should want to go up, and you’d be pushing hard to keep it down.

I’m thinking that she may have rolled it over into a Split-S to pick up that speed and descent rate.

 

[TrueCourse]

Split-S? You obviously haven’t read the report. Or, you are trolling.

 

[Racerx]

Ha. Hoover thinks a 430 is an autopilot.

 

[Brad Z]

what’s intersting to me in this case is that clearly she was struggling as a pilot. She must have sensed that. I’ve watched plenty of GA YouTubers, more than a few of them seem to project some of the classic hazardous attitudes (impulsivity, macho, invulnerability, and anti-authority) but I hadn’t come across any who truly lacked basic airmanship skills. Most YouTubers try to emulate being a positive role model, or at least edit out their screw-ups.

With Jenny, I can’t tell if she honestly didn’t know she was underperforming, or if showing an unfiltered, sometimes cringeworthy performance was part of her schtick. Perhaps she posted her videos because it drew positive engagement from viewers who perhaps didn’t know any better. But IIRC, her comments also included many people cautioning her too.

 

[DeltaCharlie172]

With Jenny, I can’t tell if she honestly didn’t know she was underperforming...

Taking that many medications is prima facie proof that she was aware of her own under performance.

 

[dmspilot]

what’s intersting to me in this case is that clearly she was struggling as a pilot. She must have sensed that. I’ve watched plenty of GA YouTubers, more than a few of them seem to project some of the classic hazardous attitudes (impulsivity, macho, invulnerability, and anti-authority) but I hadn’t come across any who truly lacked basic airmanship skills. Most YouTubers try to emulate being a positive role model, or at least edit out their screw-ups.

With Jenny, I can’t tell if she honestly didn’t know she was underperforming, or if showing an unfiltered, sometimes cringeworthy performance was part of her schtick. Perhaps she posted her videos because it drew positive engagement from viewers who perhaps didn’t know any better. But IIRC, her comments also included many people cautioning her too.

To be fair, most of her videos were pretty boring and uneventful. On her best days, she was an average-ish pilot...apparently with a high standard deviation.

I do think she wanted to be a good pilot and that she thought getting her instrument rating would accomplish that, but in reality she needed to work on the basics. The interview with one of the instructors said she tried to go-around without adding power.

 

[Rick A]

Split-S? You obviously haven’t read the report. Or, you are trolling.

No trolling here. Read the report. I believe what made that last descent different and deadly, was a steep bank into a roll over upset that she inadvertently initiated and then quickly panicked, allowing it to fully develop. Not fudging around with the autopilot’s trim buttons as speculated by many, including the experts at the NTSB.

The near neutral trim setting agrees with the chart’s plots. According to the chart, the last descent was different than the earlier ones, starting with an initial left turn off course (as noticed by ATC), minor ground track changes, developing into a near vertical decent with a huge increase in airspeed and descent rate following the upset. Lift was inverted and pulling the plane down.

Reading the report and the drivel written about beeps and button pushing the plane into that condition, while the trim was set at near neutral, seems very unlikely. Regardless of her medical condition and lack of flying ability.

IMO, you would have to work hard to crash this plane with the wings positioned anywhere near level.

 

[Jim_R]

Considering she had 182.6 hours of dual instruction...

For perspective…I have 153 hrs of dual received, ATP MEL, Commercial SEL, CFI(I), 5000 hrs TT…

It wasn't necessarily the amount of dual instruction that DC172 was really commenting on...it was how much dual she accrued en route to her Private certificate, especially compared to her solo time. She had 183 hours of dual and 10 hours of solo when she got her ticket.

She logged 182.6 hours of dual instruction with 193.2 hours total flight time before receiving her private plot certificate... I know many take 70-100 hours but 182.6?

 

[donjohnston]

Generally speaking, such a report would likely trigger a 49 U.S.C. Section 44709 Reexamination (or as commonly referred to as a “709 ride”) with an aviation safety inspector.

If that were the case, Jerry Wagner would be getting a 709 ride once a month.

 

[dtuuri]

what’s intersting to me in this case is that clearly she was struggling as a pilot.

Taking that many medications is prima facie proof that she was aware of her own under performance.

Yeah, but when I said it, I got mod-ified into oblivion. Her nervousness could have driven her to seek medication after her last medical 11 months earlier. Or she lied, ymmv.

 

[Dana]

It wasn't necessarily the amount of dual instruction that DC172 was really commenting on...it was how much dual she accrued en route to her Private certificate, especially compared to her solo time. She had 183 hours of dual and 10 hours of solo when she got her ticket.

I wonder how many hours she had before solo?

I have a friend who had 500 hours when he took his PP checkride... but mostly solo; he had his own plane and flew a lot while waiting for a DPE.

 

[Sierra1]

Holy C__p. Look at 10:06. That is an impaired person.
The only way to have gotten there with those meds is to have lied on her medical.

Well it did say “She otherwise reported no active medical conditions.”, but that list says otherwise.

 

[Jim K]

Well it did say “She otherwise reported no active medical conditions.”, but that list says otherwise.

"Reported" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

To me the Deb vs Cherokee thing is a nonstarter. She didn’t crash because of retracts or an extra 100 hp. She crashed because she couldn’t fly the airplane at the skill level required for a solo student.

I'm not blaming the Debonair, I'm just blaming the Debonair. Her YT channel and the crash profoundly illustrated her incompetence in the Debonair. Some, even on this forum, have called her DPE into question, since she was a rated pilot. Either she performed to the standard on her checkride or she didn't. The only piece of evidence available is her PPL, which would normally indicate that she performed to the standard necessary. Since I prefer assuming the best of people, I'd rather not contradict that evidence (thus, I'm assuming she performed to the standards on the day of her checkride). According to @dmspilot , videos of her flying the Cherokee were dull due to the routine nature of the flights, less mistakes. This would lend credence to her competence in the Cherokee.

The question is if she ever demonstrated competence in the Debonair. Hours of video evidence (and the crash) demonstrated her incompetence in the plane. Maybe she got her endorsements in different planes. Maybe she was competent in them. Maybe.

Personally, I think her incompetence with the gadgets in the Debonair played a bigger part than the airframe.

 

[Bob Noel]

I'm not blaming the Debonair, I'm just blaming the Debonair. [snip]

sorry for the nitpicking(?), but I think that there is a typo. words missing?

 

[Dana]

I'm guessing she got overwhelmed and panicked.

 

[DeltaCharlie172]

I wonder how many hours she had before solo?

I have a friend who had 500 hours when he took his PP checkride... but mostly solo; he had his own plane and flew a lot while waiting for a DPE.

182.6 hours of dual instruction with 193.2 hours total flight time equals 10.6 hours solo time before her checkride... Absolutely crazy!

I am just blown away that the NTSB final report mentions nothing about her complex/high performance endorsement, or the lack thereof, or the aircraft that she would have used to get those endorsements.

​

"The pilot’s logbook was found at the accident site but was heavily damaged...None of the pilot’s logbook endorsements were contained within the undamaged segment of logbook that was reviewed." pg. 7​

My initial thoughts were maybe she had both paper and electronic logbooks, where maybe she keep her complex/high performance endorsements. But this is mere speculation. I'd assume that the NTSB would want to get any EFB (ie. Foreflight) logbook records, if any. Does not seem like they did this or maybe she didn't have EFB logbook, either way we are left with not knowing. Frankly, IMO the the NTSB final report gets a C-. Imagine the how this incident could have been a better case study if we knew more! I am eagerly awaiting Hoover's Pilot Debrief on the final report.

 

[Ed Haywood]

sorry for the nitpicking(?), but I think that there is a typo. words missing?

Nope, just a talent for a clever turn of phrase. Apparently it runs in the family.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I'm not blaming the Debonair, I'm just blaming the Debonair. Her YT channel and the crash profoundly illustrated her incompetence in the Debonair. Some, even on this forum, have called her DPE into question, since she was a rated pilot. Either she performed to the standard on her checkride or she didn't. The only piece of evidence available is her PPL, which would normally indicate that she performed to the standard necessary. Since I prefer assuming the best of people, I'd rather not contradict that evidence (thus, I'm assuming she performed to the standards on the day of her checkride). According to @dmspilot , videos of her flying the Cherokee were dull due to the routine nature of the flights, less mistakes. This would lend credence to her competence in the Cherokee.

The question is if she ever demonstrated competence in the Debonair. Hours of video evidence (and the crash) demonstrated her incompetence in the plane. Maybe she got her endorsements in different planes. Maybe she was competent in them. Maybe.

Personally, I think her incompetence with the gadgets in the Debonair played a bigger part than the airframe.

Smart post. I am very competent in my simple no-flaps VFR airplane. I would humbly rate myself in the top 1% in my type. But I would be terribly incompetent in a complex TAA aircraft. I would probably find a way to pop the BRS on a Cirrus while starting the engine.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Assuming the liver tox analysis was accurate, and this person’s was an outlier, how many pilots take only 10-20% of this amount of DNI/DNF substances regularly and fly? I’m just thinking of the statistical distribution aspect. 10 drugs for her and 0 for the entire rest of the pilot population? Or there’s some people out there that take 1-9 drugs and still fly. Am I making any sense?

 

[Piperonca]

Assuming the liver tox analysis was accurate, and this person’s was an outlier, how many pilots take only 10-20% of this amount of DNI/DNF substances regularly and fly? I’m just thinking of the statistical distribution aspect. 10 drugs for her and 0 for the entire rest of the pilot population? Or there’s some people out there that take 1-9 drugs and still fly. Am I making any sense?

I don't see how she could walk, much less fly.

 

[Lindberg]

I am just blown away that the NTSB final report mentions nothing about her complex/high performance endorsement, or the lack thereof, or the aircraft that she would have used to get those endorsements.
"The pilot’s logbook was found at the accident site but was heavily damaged...None of the pilot’s logbook endorsements were contained within the undamaged segment of logbook that was reviewed." pg. 7

You say the report doesn't mention her endorsements, and then you quote what it says about her endorsements.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

I don't see how she could walk, much less fly.

I am too lazy to look up the half-lives of this stuff in the liver, but it may be that she had taken some of this over the course of weeks or months and not all at once, maybe under care of a doctor trying to see what works.

Mental health can be a haphazard medical science that is especially variable depending on the doctor. “Let’s try this” or “adjust this dose” or “add this one” while looking for improvement or side effect.

But I really don’t know, just something to consider. Have a loved one who has been through the wringer.

 

[Doc Holliday]

182.6 hours of dual instruction with 193.2 hours total flight time equals 10.6 hours solo time before her checkride... Absolutely crazy!

I am just blown away that the NTSB final report mentions nothing about her complex/high performance endorsement, or the lack thereof, or the aircraft that she would have used to get those endorsements.

​

"The pilot’s logbook was found at the accident site but was heavily damaged...None of the pilot’s logbook endorsements were contained within the undamaged segment of logbook that was reviewed." pg. 7​

Perhaps we don't recognize your credentials in aircraft accident investigation? Please feel free to post them.

Right there in the report it distinctly says "The pilot’s logbook was found at the accident site but was heavily damaged...None of the pilot’s logbook endorsements were contained within the undamaged segment of logbook that was reviewed." pg. 7
If the documentation is destroyed that's pretty much it.

My initial thoughts were maybe she had both paper and electronic logbooks, where maybe she keep her complex/high performance endorsements. But this is mere speculation. I'd assume that the NTSB would want to get any EFB (ie. Foreflight) logbook records, if any. Does not seem like they did this or maybe she didn't have EFB logbook, either way we are left with not knowing.

How do you know they didn't try to find the information?

Frankly, IMO the the NTSB final report gets a C-. Imagine the how this incident could have been a better case study if we knew more!

Again, give us your background in aviation accident reporting.

I am eagerly awaiting Hoover's Pilot Debrief on the final report.

So now we should rely on a youtuber without any accident investigation background to also speculate?

Read "Hoover's" disclaimer "This channel is for entertainment purposes only and represents solely my opinion and not the opinion, views, or position of anyone else"

 

[bbchien]

"Reported" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.

The most common impaired response that I get is,
"I don't have any medical condition. The Dr. did not issuse a diagnosis".
My reply:
"Yeah. He did. Even if it was only at the insurance level- you didn't pay retail for those meds didja?"

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

what’s intersting to me in this case is that clearly she was struggling as a pilot. She must have sensed that. I’ve watched plenty of GA YouTubers, more than a few of them seem to project some of the classic hazardous attitudes (impulsivity, macho, invulnerability, and anti-authority) but I hadn’t come across any who truly lacked basic airmanship skills. Most YouTubers try to emulate being a positive role model, or at least edit out their screw-ups.

That's a good point.
Here's a scary thought: Perhaps she did edit out all the worst transgressions and what we saw was actually her highlight reel.

 

[MauleSkinner]

According to @dmspilot , videos of her flying the Cherokee were dull due to the routine nature of the flights, less mistakes. This would lend credence to her competence in the Cherokee.

The question is if she ever demonstrated competence in the Debonair. Hours of video evidence (and the crash) demonstrated her incompetence in the plane. Maybe she got her endorsements in different planes. Maybe she was competent in them. Maybe.

Personally, I think her incompetence with the gadgets in the Debonair played a bigger part than the airframe.

I’ll put a slightly different twist on it…With 180+ hours of instruction in the Cherokee, she was probably operating at a strong rote level. But what skills she had were as a Cherokee pilot, not an airplane pilot in general, and she couldn’t apply what she knew to the Debonair.

I see it all the time at the IFR level…they can fly an approach with a Garmin Whatever, but when I try to explain how to fly a GPS approach with the avionics we use, they don’t understand the basics of instrument approaches.

 

[hindsight2020]

I bet ya that woman couldn't pass a basic eye motor test with the standing dosing she was under, forget flying. She shouldn't have been driving. We know these types, functional addicts. Frankly that's the bigger deal here, the impunity these toxreps highlight is the reason we can't have nice things. She wasn't a friend of recreational aviation, none of these social media grifters are. But, we live in the world of what things are, not what they should be, so we press on and hope they don't box us all out of the sky before the squirrels find something else to ruin with their attention.

 

[DeltaCharlie172]

None of the pilot’s logbook endorsements were contained within the undamaged segment of logbook that was reviewed." pg. 7

So now we should rely on a youtuber without any accident investigation background to also speculate?

Maybe I read this sentence different... Either way, there is little explanation on the endorsements - a CFI would have to provide training and sign off. They interviewed CFI related to her PPL training and I did not read anything about inquiry into those endorsements.

And Hoover is certainly not an expert anymore than you and I but his videos are very insightful.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Maybe I read this sentence different... Either way, there is little explanation on the endorsements - a CFI would have to provide training and sign off. They interviewed CFI related to her PPL training and I did not read anything about inquiry into those endorsements.

Again, how do you know it wasn't discussed? And how would you know which CFI she many have used after receiving her PPL for such endorsements if the records are destroyed?

And Hoover is certainly not an expert anymore than you and I but his videos are very insightful.

It's amateur babbling and speculation for youtube clicks. Like he says, "entertainment purposes only".

 

[FlightmechH3]

I do remember one of her videos (that is deleted) where she was driving her car while running stop signs and committing other violations such as speeding. This was before one of her flights.

I was under the impression she was drunk or a loon.

Good thing she no longer drives or fly.

I half expected her fans to come out and say she fought the airplane and fly away to avoid homes that were full of orphans