Teach me about T routes

FORANE

FORANE

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FORANE
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Never filed one, never been assigned one, don't know much of nuttin about one. I've noticed the low enroute charts are getting cluttered with em. I've noticed the MEA's are often different from the colocated Victor airways. Has there been much usage of them over Victor airways? Any reason I would want one over a V airway?

Oh, just noticed the other thread that search failed to find. Disregard.
 
FORANE said:
Never filed one, never been assigned one, don't know much of nuttin about one.
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Are you filing as a /G (with all the other codes) so that they know you're a GPS equipped aircraft. They will never assign a T Route to a ground based navigation (VOR/NDB) aircraft.

If you are /G, then it may have to do with where you fly. I used to frequently get T Routes when flying out of the greater NYC area. As for using them, they're great since the MEA can often be lower since there is not VOR reception (or NDB) to worry about. So if one makes more sense to use than one of the old Victor Airways, go for it. You don't fly them any differently, just use GPS instead of VOR (or NDB).
 
M20K said:
Are you filing as a /G (with all the other codes) so that they know you're a GPS equipped aircraft. They will never assign a T Route to a ground based navigation (VOR/NDB) aircraft.
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Yes, /G only, no ground based navigation (VOR/NDB).
 
FORANE said:
Yes, /G only, no ground based navigation (VOR/NDB).
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Whether you get one or not depends a lot on where you are. In concept, they were created for routing around busy terminal areas and they have the design advantage of not being tied to ground-based navaids. So, at least in theory, controllers should love 'em and use them all the time.

But their actual use is more sporadic. As @M20K said, they are used regularly in the NE corridor. They've used and assigned Victor airways for decades and whol;e segments of the main Victor airways have been decommissioned, so the transition to T-Routes was natural. I've filed the T-Routes around the DC area and been cleared as filed with zero enroute amendments until clear of DC airspace.

On the flip side, as an experiment to see what would happen, I recently filed T-Routes to go around the Charlotte Class B. "Cleared as filed" by the Center computer, but well before speaking to Charlotte approach, I got amended to the non-T-Route fixes their controllers are more used to.
 
I've gotten them, typically to get around airspace (ie: Orlando). The only negative is the number of waypoints for those of us with legacy equipment.
 
You’ll notice the T-routes are now in the same place as the Victor airways used to be (in places with decommissioned VORs). Nothing special about them, just a GPS version of the ground based V-airway essentially.
 
Never had a T Route, never had a Victor. File for direct, pick an altitude from OROCAs, go fly.
 
WDD said:
Never had a T Route, never had a Victor. File for direct, pick an altitude from OROCAs, go fly.
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I'm assuming you're joking. But if by chance you live in a more rural area where getting direct is not uncommon and you really haven't flown an Airway or had multiple reroutes and vectors from Controllers... Don't every plan a XC into a bigger metro area without some serious time with a CFII that is not from where you got your Inst. Rating. :D There are a few videos out there of folks that turned tail and luckily made it back home and others that were not so lucky.
 
M20K said:
I'm assuming you're joking. But if by chance you live in a more rural area where getting direct is not uncommon and you really haven't flown an Airway or had multiple reroutes and vectors from Controllers... Don't every plan a XC into a bigger metro area without some serious time with a CFII that is not from where you got your Inst. Rating. :D There are a few videos out there of folks that turned tail and luckily made it back home and others that were not so lucky.
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He’s probably not joking.

But I wouldn’t assume that someone who has never had to fly an airway wouldn’t know how to. At least not any more that I wouldn’t assume a pilot who has only flown where they are used extensively couldn’t figure out how to go direct or point to point.

Turning tail or canceling IFR because of reroutes when out of practice copying real clearances or thinking that the space allocated for the “R” in the scratchpad “CRAFT” in EFBs is usable for anything more than “as filed”? Yeah, I can see that.
 
I live in ATL, so I’d say kind of busy B airspace. I get re routes, STARS, vectors to fixes, etc enough to keep it interesting and keep me buying note book refill paper.

But I’ve never asked for or have been given a Victor or T route. Edit: I do occasionally get a Victor assigned on the ground after filing. And every one has been changed to direct in the air.

And……. If I did need to follow a victor, it’s not that complicated.
 
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The Southeast, ex Florida is largely D> everywhere except for the Charlotte and ATL Bravo's. Try the Northeast if you want to get proficient at copying clearances. Here's one from a few years ago, many of the V airways are replaced with T's today. This isn't what I filed, it's what ATC amended after filing.
KFME GEEMO V123 OOD V312 CYN V1 DPK V46 CCC V16 CREAM V374 YODER KGON. This route got amended 3 times in flight as well.
 
Hang 4 said:
The Southeast, ex Florida is largely D> everywhere except for the Charlotte and ATL Bravo's. Try the Northeast if you want to get proficient at copying clearances. Here's one from a few years ago, many of the V airways are replaced with T's today. This isn't what I filed, it's what ATC amended after filing.
KFME GEEMO V123 OOD V312 CYN V1 DPK V46 CCC V16 CREAM V374 YODER KGON. This route got amended 3 times in flight as well.
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Ugh!
 
Hang 4 said:
The Southeast, ex Florida is largely D> everywhere except for the Charlotte and ATL Bravo's. Try the Northeast if you want to get proficient at copying clearances. Here's one from a few years ago, many of the V airways are replaced with T's today. This isn't what I filed, it's what ATC amended after filing.
KFME GEEMO V123 OOD V312 CYN V1 DPK V46 CCC V16 CREAM V374 YODER KGON. This route got amended 3 times in flight as well.
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I wasn't going to, but since you did one of those, check this out (bout 4 minutes)... I always wondered what they actually filed since, except for the high altitude J/Q routes which I wouldn't know, it sounded like pretty normal routing to me.

 
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Hang 4 said:
KFME GEEMO V123 OOD V312 CYN V1 DPK V46 CCC V16 CREAM V374 YODER KGON. This route got amended 3 times in flight as well.
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Just curious... Around CYN did they try to send you to WINKK or GAMBY and V44 out over the water? I used to always fight with them not to send me out over the water and drop me down to 5K when going back to FRG.
 
M20K said:
Just curious... Around CYN did they try to send you to WINKK or GAMBY and V44 out over the water? I used to always fight with them not to send me out over the water and drop me down to 5K when going back to FRG.
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Nope, over JFK every time I’ve done it. Going to New England which might be the difference. Usually go northeast after JFK
 
Today I flew an Angel Flight.

Filed: Direct KPUJ - KM01 (Memphis)
Expected: KPUJ - WETWO - HEFIN, V321 (exit) GAD - KM01
Cleared Readback - KPUJ - WETWO - HEFIN, V321 (exit) GAD - KM01

What really happened....
"When entering controlled airspace, heading 250" - held that for 5 minutes (or something like 250 - I already tossed my inflight notes).
"Direct to GAD" - which at that time was almost on a straight line to KM01. Skipped the majority of the route.
"Direct to KMO1" And there went the rest of it.

Fairly typical.

My hunch is that the T and V routes may not give the controllers enough latitude for controlling traffic, so they direct/vector a combination of you where you need to go and where they need you to be. Maybe different in the old days when you were restricted by technology of flying a fixed airway.

Makes for more note taking when you get things like "10 degrees right", followed after a while of "Resume direct". But I trust that ATC knows what they're doing, and they do it like this for a reason.

So, why is it bad that I'm not asking for or being directed to follow T or V routes?
 
WDD said:
Today I flew an Angel Flight.

Filed: Direct KPUJ - KM01 (Memphis)
Expected: KPUJ - WETWO - HEFIN, V321 (exit) GAD - KM01
Cleared Readback - KPUJ - WETWO - HEFIN, V321 (exit) GAD - KM01

What really happened....
"When entering controlled airspace, heading 250" - held that for 5 minutes (or something like 250 - I already tossed my inflight notes).
"Direct to GAD" - which at that time was almost on a straight line to KM01. Skipped the majority of the route.
"Direct to KMO1" And there went the rest of it.

Fairly typical.

My hunch is that the T and V routes may not give the controllers enough latitude for controlling traffic, so they direct/vector a combination of you where you need to go and where they need you to be. Maybe different in the old days when you were restricted by technology of flying a fixed airway.

Makes for more note taking when you get things like "10 degrees right", followed after a while of "Resume direct". But I trust that ATC knows what they're doing, and they do it like this for a reason.

So, why is it bad that I'm not asking for or being directed to follow T or V routes?
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KM01 ??? (exit) ??? GAD ???
 
KM01 is the name of an airport in the Memphis Bravo

HEFFIN is the fix where I was to enter V321. GAD is the fix where I was to leave V321 and go direct to KM01 airport.
 
WDD said:
KM01 is the name of an airport in the Memphis Bravo

HEFFIN is the fix where I was to enter V321. GAD is the fix where I was to leave V321 and go direct to KM01 airport.
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Oh. M01 doesn’t start with K. Where did you get that Expected from?
 
I’ve filed T routes through Wyoming to get lower MEAs than the V routes offered. There are a few T routes out that way that were drawn without regard to existing airways or navaids, so they can dodge the mountains better. Opening up a few thousand feet of lower altitudes can make a huge difference both for planning and for avoiding threats like icing.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Why?
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If you take WDD at his word that he has "never" flown a V or T Route, then I'd say that speaks pretty poorly of the CFII that didn't, at least occasionally, have him intercept and fly an airway. Same with the DPE, though not as much. But I would have thought they'd have check his being able to work the airspace other than being able to fly Direct.

I take it you must disagree if you didn't get the point.:p
 
M20K said:
If you take WDD at his word that he has "never" flown a V or T Route, then I'd say that speaks pretty poorly of the CFII that didn't, at least occasionally, have him intercept and fly an airway. Same with the DPE, though not as much. But I would have thought they'd have check his being able to work the airspace other than being able to fly Direct.

I take it you must disagree if you didn't get the point.:p
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@WDD , so didja? What was that thread you started when you were working on your IR?
 
I don't think @WDD is saying he doesn't know what one is, just that he never gets assigned any in the region he flies in. I find exactly the same between Northern FL and roughly the DC area. I file with one way point to keep from going too far over the water and get asked if I wan direct destination all the time between NC and KFIN. NE, SoCal, NorCal, you get T and V airways as part of complex clearances all the time.

He didn't start the thread, just added an observation of his experience filing and flying in his region.
 
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