Swift 100R gets ASTM Approval

[Cap'n Jack]

How has compromise worked so far for GA?

I think all the facts that can be said have been said in this thread

And none of them from you.

 

[decalogue]

And none of them from you.

Just because you don’t like a fact doesn’t mean it’s not a fact

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Just because you don’t like a fact doesn’t mean it’s not a fact

Sorry dude- I provided legitimate citations. I'm sorry you disagreed with them. Some of your links were for scammers. TEL as a solid? Companies that indicated they were merely resellers? Look at the screen shots. And you didn't even read the posts, or didn't read them well.

It a fact that 100LL is going away and there is nothing you can do about it. Write to your elected representatives- if there's no money attached, you might get a reply.

 

[decalogue]

Sorry dude- I provided legitimate citations. I'm sorry you disagreed with them. Some of your links were for scammers. TEL as a solid? Companies that indicated they were merely resellers? Look at the screen shots. And you didn't even read the posts, or didn't read them well.

It a fact that 100LL is going away and there is nothing you can do about it. Write to your elected representatives- if there's no money attached, you might get a reply.

Yeah so did I, I also went through that NIH study (did you post that??) and it even said the level of lead from GA was below anything that would make a noticeable difference in health

I linked the AOPA article citing numerous studies that show no notable change in health or environmental impact, unless you think all of those are “scammers” too

Plus I don’t doubt for a second, even if we senselessly ban 100LL in the US and that takes out half of the 100LL market, that’s still 1 BILLION USD a year on the table, if the UK stops making TEL china would have no issue having 1 factory of their many factories make it for that kinda cash and control.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Yeah so did I, I also went through that NIH study (did you post that??) and it even said the level of lead from GA was below anything that would make a noticeable difference in health

You only mentioned blood pressure, but the paper only indicated it was measured. You chose to ignore that the Pb blood levels of people that work at airports selling avgas was over twice the that measured of those that sold only jet fuel.

I linked the AOPA article citing numerous studies that show no notable change in health or environmental impact, unless you think all of those are “scammers” too

A study that is discredited- AOPA now supports the change to no-lead fuels.

Plus I don’t doubt for a second, even if we senselessly ban 100LL in the US and that takes out half of the 100LL market, that’s still 1 BILLION USD a year on the table, if the UK stops making TEL china would have no issue having 1 factory of their many factories make it for that kinda cash and control.

A billion is a lot to you or me, but it doesn't register on their balance sheet with a GDP of trillions of dollars. China is capitalist and no company there will invest in making 100LL because the market is going away. Australia is getting rid of 100LL (cited earlier in the thread). The Chinese government could work with a chemical producer there to produce it, but why would they? It's not a market they care about or they would have worked to undersell Innospec by now and taken over the market. Why build a factory to produce something that won't be used in 4 to 6 years? TEL will go away.

The American Chemical Society citation explains the history of 100LL and why it makes sense for it to go away.

 

[asicer]

“Algeria has been importing tetraethyl lead from China, but some percentage may be coming from Innospec Limited”

You cherry picked your quote right before the interesting sentence:
"Algeria had committed to phasing out leaded petrol in its market by 2015. However, the current status of leaded petrol in the country is unknown."
And you neglected to mention that your citation is from 2017, according to the bottom of the page.

Algeria stopped leaded gas 5 years ago.

Leaded petrol era ‘officially over’ as Algeria ends pump sales

UN announcement marks ‘huge milestone for global health and our environment’

www.theguardian.com

So yes china exports it and it’s running in engines

Exports it to who, now?

 

[Jim_R]

Yeah so did I, I also went through that NIH study (did you post that??) and it even said the level of lead from GA was below anything that would make a noticeable difference in health

Where, exactly, does it say that? I don't see anything in the NIH study that says anything about the level of lead from GA one way or the other.

Here's what I do see:

Is There Any Safe Level of Lead?​

Current research hasn’t been able to determine a threshold for many of lead’s effects. That is, scientists haven’t yet found a concentration of lead below which no effect occurs.

That is actually saying the opposite of your implication that some known level of lead exposure exists that is "below anything that would make a noticeable difference in health".

 

[Narwhal]

We could (AOPA, EAA, influential private citizens) could get the 100LL sunset overturned. Lots of crazier stuff has been done in congress with much less effort. It just takes the right people lobbying the right lawmakers to put it into the pork of some bill. The time is now though.

 

[asicer]

We could (AOPA, EAA, influential private citizens) could get the 100LL sunset overturned. Lots of crazier stuff has been done in congress with much less effort. It just takes the right people lobbying the right lawmakers to put it into the pork of some bill. The time is now though.

There's still the potential problem of fire/flood/quake/etc at the Innospec factory and the C-suite deciding not to rebuild it.

 

[decalogue]

There's still the potential problem of fire/flood/quake/etc at the Innospec factory and the C-suite deciding not to rebuild it.

Only one place has the magic to make TEL?

2 billion a year, china would be happy to fill those shoes, plus UK taxes and crazy regulations vs china, going to have WAY better margins in china

 

[Daleandee]

We could (AOPA, EAA, influential private citizens) could get the 100LL sunset overturned. Lots of crazier stuff has been done in congress with much less effort. It just takes the right people lobbying the right lawmakers to put it into the pork of some bill. The time is now though.

Many would be much happier without having to deal with lead in the engines. I use a good amount of E-free Mogas but 100LL gets put into the tank when traveling.

 

[decalogue]

Many would be much happier without having to deal with lead in the engines. I use a good amount of E-free Mogas but 100LL gets put into the tank when traveling.

If taught how to properly run a engine for ground and flight ops, there is nothing to deal with

 

[Hang 4]

Only one place has the magic to make TEL?

2 billion a year, china would be happy to fill those shoes, plus UK taxes and crazy regulations vs china, going to have WAY better margins in china

Is Chinese supplier would have to comply with the environmental and safety requirements of Exxonmobil, Phillips 66 and Shell. it’s a microscopic market for the oil majors. Much easier to just abandon the avgas market and its significant supply chain headaches like dedicated trucks and tanks. Can’t intermix leaded fuel with auto fuel

 

[asicer]

2 billion a year, china would be happy to fill those shoes, plus UK taxes and crazy regulations vs china, going to have WAY better margins in china

That's step 1. The next step is whether their government is willing to let it out. And then the step after that is whether ours is willing to let it in. And probably even more logistics to work out beyond that..

 

[decalogue]

That's step 1. The next step is whether their government is willing to let it out. And then the step after that is whether ours is willing to let it in. And probably even more logistics to work out beyond that..

Because china and big oil are know for their noble principled nature and care for the environment

Based on the dangerous junk china makes and we happily import, think some simple century old TEL for airplane gas might maaaaybe have a chance

Just need to tell the regulator lackies to take a government holiday and “these are not the drones you’re looking for”

 

[asicer]

Because china and big oil are know for their noble principled nature

Based on the dangerous junk china makes and we happily import, think some simple century old TEL for airplane gas might maaaaybe have a chance

Just need to tell the regulator lackies to take a government holiday and “these are not the drones you’re looking for”

Speaking of drones, the military ones are burning Jet-A. Why would a company, Chinese or otherwise, want to invest startup costs into a shrinking market?

 

[decalogue]

Speaking of drones, the military ones are burning Jet-A. Why would a company, Chinese or otherwise, want to invest startup costs into a shrinking market?
View attachment 150384

Because most things that blow stuff up (like a chinese damn) don’t burn 100ll, because it’s 2 billion dollars, and don’t tell cirrus GA is shrinking lol

Plus china just wants money, making them a monopoly too, that’s something they’d not pass up

 

[Mikey52]

I wouldnt be surprised to see a 300hp delta hawk engine in a cirrus before 2030.

 

[Hang 4]

Because china and big oil are know for their noble principled nature and care for the environment

You haven't spent much time around the oil majors lately. EPA and OSHA are very focused on the industry and there's ton of money and resources directed at staying on the right side of the regs by the majors. Not just for show either, they sincerely want to stay on the right side of the law in letter and spirit.

2 billion a year, china would be happy to fill those shoes, plus UK taxes and crazy regulations vs china, going to have WAY better margins in china

US suppliers don't get a "pass" just because materials are sourced overseas. Once it's in their supply chain, they own the liability. Not putting chi-com crap in airplanes, tort bar would have a field day with the first accident. They are willing to do it with Innospec as they have a process that has been in place for decades and they are a trusted supplier. I'd guess that there are multiple visits annually to the UK plant by the majors for process quality and safety reviews.
Also, ExxonMobil alone is 340 billion in annual revenue, P66 140 billion, Shell 284 billion. That's cumulatively well over one half a Trillion $, they don't give a crap about $2bn, it's a rounding error

Other than saying it's not needed, you don't exactly have a plan to fix it and if the EPA endangerment finding doesn't go away in this administration, it's not going away.

I'm out as you consistently cite facts, but when presented with facts that don't support your position, you ignore them. As someone else said, best to put this on ignore. I'm sorry to the rest of POA for not letting this go sooner.

 

[decalogue]

I wouldnt be surprised to see a 300hp delta hawk engine in a cirrus before 2030.

What’s the costs to over haul one once it hits TBO?

Plus for a engine of the same displacement the diesel is almost 100lbs heavier, and with no confirmed TBO times or costs, plus significant cowling and firewall forward mods required, hard pass

 

[JOhnH]

What’s the costs to over haul one once it hits TBO?

Plus for a engine of the same displacement the diesel is almost 100lbs heavier, and with no confirmed TBO times or costs, plus significant cowling and firewall forward mods required, hard pass

Are you talking of retrofitting into existing airframes, or do the cowling and firewall forward mods you refer to pertain to new airframes?

 

[Racerx]

Getting this much push back from a group that's pro leaded fuel and still thinking you can easily change the opinion of folks adamant about it's removal with a simple PowerPoint is insanity.

 

[GaryM]

Frankly if it was not banned in say Mexico, not to hard to ferry it back.

Of all of the difficult/impractical/expensive potential solutions proposed to address the sunsetting of 100LL in the US, that is by FAR the most difficult/impractical/expensive. And that’s if you live near the border. For most of the fleet, it would be impossible.

 

[decalogue]

Of all of the difficult/impractical/expensive potential solutions proposed to address the sunsetting of 100LL in the US, that is by FAR the most difficult/impractical/expensive. And that’s if you live near the border. For most of the fleet, it would be impossible.

It’s the principle of the matter

 

[Dana]

After Freon (R-12) was banned in the US, a number of people were caught smuggling it from Mexico. I suspect the punishment wasn't worth the potential profit.

 

[decalogue]

After Freon (R-12) was banned in the US, a number of people were caught smuggling it from Mexico. I suspect the punishment wasn't worth the potential profit.

Bottles of it sure

But just having your system serviced with it, especially if you live near the boarder, that just seems a good idea

 

[Michael Luvara]

I don't think so. There are quite a few airports that have long term environmental issues which developers do not want. Thats why you only see public entities really pushing for airports to close as they are the only ones who could handle any liability issues with the site. For example, several airports that I'm familiar with all city recreational areas with hiking trails, sports facilities, and golf courses. But with FAA restrictions no longer in place, the developers could now build right up to the former airport perimeter fence line.

If it was as they claim, it’s such a small thing they would have forgotten about it, many much larger issues have been forgotten about.

With how many airports are in the US, that’s a TON of money and I’m sure more than a few developers are calling their paid for representatives to try to “free up some land”

I am based at the airport, Reid Hillview (RHV), that is behind a ban on sales of 100LL and much of the hysteria for banning 100LL based on a statistical study. The FAA ruled the County's ban violated FAA grant assurances, and the County is still fighting by using delay tactics to push out an appeal. At one of the early meetings to halt receiving grant assurances, one County supervisor directly said the land was a 'gold mine' (see 1 min 28 mark).

So yes, many areas see land as a gold mine... especially here in Silicon Valley.

Michael

 

[Michael Luvara]

So I gas up at home with 100LL, then fly XC and stop for fuel at a field selling Swift. I have to get an A&P to change my ignition timing?! Next I land at my destination, but they sell GamiGas. Change the timing again??!! Head for home a few days later, have to buy Swift again....

This just ain't gonna work.

Exactly. And what's the timing when we have 1/3 of a fuel load of 100LL and have to top off with Swift?

If the timing is retarded for a new fuel, running with 100LL or higher octane will have margin. The FAA is are planning this out on the transition and will communicate any effects in that phase of transition.

I would have a look at the transition plan if you haven't. https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/draft_unleaded_avgas_transition_plan

 

[Half Fast]

If the timing is retarded for a new fuel, running with 100LL or higher octane will have margin.

That's detonation margin. The plane will have reduced power and won't meet its performance numbers.

This ain't gonna work. We have to have an UL fuel that's completely fungible with any other available fuel and without requiring reductions in engine performance.

 

[MackMooney]

if the new fuels are actually 100 octane, which swift and ul100e supposedly are, why would we need massive changes?

 

[Michael Luvara]

That's detonation margin. The plane will have reduced power and won't meet its performance numbers.

This ain't gonna work. We have to have an UL fuel that's completely fungible with any other available fuel and without requiring reductions in engine performance.

Yes, true to some extent. This is being analyzed at the FAA's tech center as noted in the FAA's transition plan document.

VP/Lyondell released info about their fuel's performance (which I had in my latest video), showing comparative performance of fuel,etc. I've attached them here for reference. Note the performance values.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the statement made by VP/Lyondell that a drop in replacement is not possible. Replacement of lead with chemicals for octane has led to issues with many candidate fuels, and based on my testing with G100UL, I do not feel the materials compatiblity topic will allow that to be called drop in.

Michael

 

[737steve]

We have to have an UL fuel that's completely fungible with any other available fuel and without requiring reductions in engine performance.

The possibility exists that that won't happen, at least without modifications.
G100UL gives that performance, but some pretty compelling evidence has been brought forth about the effect on fuel system parts and paint.
Swiftfuel or VP may be an option with slightly adjusted ignition timing. I'll wait for dynamometer results before forming an opinion.
The next few years will be interesting, but as Mick Jagger says, you can't always get what you want.
Performance manuals can be changed. Who knows, they might actually become accurate!

 

[Half Fast]

G100UL gives that performance, but some pretty compelling evidence has been brought forth about the effect on fuel system parts and paint.

All I've seen evidence for is its effect on paint. What fuel system parts is it incompatible with?

 

[Racerx]

All I've seen evidence for is its effect on paint. What fuel system parts is it incompatible with?

@Michael Luvara has some videos out there showing how orings swell pretty significantly. But more troublesome was fuel lube turns into a gel.

 

[Michael Luvara]

Hi All-

I have a follow on video for testing of unleaded fuels that built off of my previous one in February for hoses and bladders. Some interesting results and new things tested.

Also, at the end of the video, I noted that I have two forum presentations planned at Airventure.

Michael

 

[WDD]

Please post details on the Oshkosh presentations - dates, times, locations. Would really like to attend.

 

[Michael Luvara]

Please post details on the Oshkosh presentations - dates, times, locations. Would really like to attend.

Details are here for the locations and times. Check back around the day of the event in case things change.
https://events.rdmobile.com/Speakers/Details/3541067

July 20: https://events.rdmobile.com/Sessions/Details/3540952
July 24: https://events.rdmobile.com/Sessions/Details/3541015

 

[Michael Luvara]

Hi all,

Wasn't sure about starting a new thread on this, but it has some comparisons to 100R.

I was given the unique opportunity to test VP/LyondellBasell's UL100E unleaded avgas, and thus I have now compared all three unleaded candidates for a series of the same materials compatibility. Here is more data for your consideration, including a new learning about bladder cavity tape. Oh, and I have now done a little testing on the highly requested polysulfide sealant...

So, if you're currently waiting for the smoke to clear to get into OSH, this might occupy about 20 minutes of your anxious wait.

I'm scheduled to talk at AirVenture on Monday July 20th and Thursday July 23rd.

Michael

 

[FormerHangie]

Swift has not yet demonstrated the capability to run in higher compression engines without detonation.

How many FBOs still have an unused 80/87 tank sitting empty?

IIRC, 80/87 disappeared in the 1970s.

 

[WDD]

If a fuel requires timing change to de rate the engine, it’s not going to fly. Making a fuel based on it not being fungible is non starter.

Honestly, what are these people thinking.