Swift 100R gets ASTM Approval

Minus the last part, still much fight left, and other options as long as it’s legal and made somewhere.
Who is fighting that fight? AOPA is working with EAGLE and was working with Gami. EAA has no skin in the game. The oil majors would love the headaches associated with lead in their supply chain to go away. Innospec has announced they're getting out.
Other than posting on POA and other sites, who is actually fighting to keep 100LL? or more importantly, who has the leverage to make a difference?
 
Who is fighting that fight? AOPA is working with EAGLE and was working with Gami. EAA has no skin in the game. The oil majors would love the headaches associated with lead in their supply chain to go away. Innospec has announced they're getting out.
Other than posting on POA and other sites, who is actually fighting to keep 100LL? or more importantly, who has the leverage to make a difference?

There are other makers of TEL, and there is a lot of expensive equipment that currently only properly can run on 100LL, people also like money. I’d wager someone is going to step up and take the business if it comes down to it
 
I was under the impression that Innospec was the sole manufacturer of TEL today. Who are the other manufacturers?
 
I was under the impression that Innospec was the sole manufacturer of TEL today. Who are the other manufacturers?

Nope, china who makes tons of other nasty things from electric car batteries to paint, as well as aviation parts, makes TEL too

The only one maker talking point thing, is like one day to find where that got started, finding someone else to make TEL isn’t exactly a issue

Innospec (UK)
Qingdao Hongchi Chemical Technology Co., Ltd. (China)
ROKEM (China)
Hainan Zhongxin Chemical Co., Ltd. (China)
TDSCHEM (China)
 
Nope, china who makes tons of other nasty things from electric car batteries to paint, as well as aviation parts, makes TEL too

The only one maker talking point thing, is like one day to find where that got started, finding someone else to make TEL isn’t exactly a issue

Innospec (UK)
Qingdao Hongchi Chemical Technology Co., Ltd. (China)
ROKEM (China)
Hainan Zhongxin Chemical Co., Ltd. (China)
TDSCHEM (China)
And again... From our own @PaulMillner

"the current TEL made in Liverpool is water white... the Chinese TEL is inky black... something unsavory in the mix there!"
 
And again... From our own @PaulMillner

"the current TEL made in Liverpool is water white... the Chinese TEL is inky black... something unsavory in the mix there!"

This statement lacks scientific basis.

Multiple Chinese factories produce tetraethyllead, and this Paul guy is just talking simple color he noted from a distance.

For better or worse China is a global leader in manufacturing all sorts of stuff, EV batteries to iPhone to aviation parts, and misc chemicals.

I think they can replicate the century old TEL formula.
 
Multiple Chinese factories produce tetraethyllead, and this guy is just talking color he noted from a distance.
"this guy" actually worked for one of the oil majors as a chemical engineer. Think he knows a bit more than you do.
NO oil major is going to go through the qualification process with a fly-by-night Chinese supplier into a high liability environment like aviation fuel. It will just be easier to exit the business. 100LL is a tiny fraction of the oil major's business.
The suppliers you listed have zero evidence of actually producing TEL - there is no market for it outside of avgas.
 
This statement lacks scientific basis.

Multiple Chinese factories produce tetraethyllead, and this Paul guy is just talking simple color he noted from a distance.

For better or worse China is a global leader in manufacturing all sorts of stuff, EV batteries to iPhone to aviation parts, and misc chemicals.

I think they can replicate the century old TEL formula.
If that distance is arm's length I suppose. He bought some of it. You would be hard pressed to find a more qualified expert than Paul.
 
I think they can replicate the century old TEL formula.
Okay. Lets say you can get an unlimited supply of TEL from China that meets ASTM standards. So what's your plan to change, delay, or cancel the 2030/2032 sunset date of 100LL?
 
"this guy" actually worked for one of the oil majors as a chemical engineer. Think he knows a bit more than you do.
NO oil major is going to go through the qualification process with a fly-by-night Chinese supplier into a high liability environment like aviation fuel. It will just be easier to exit the business. 100LL is a tiny fraction of the oil major's business.
The suppliers you listed have zero evidence of actually producing TEL - there is no market for it outside of avgas.

China, capable of producing iPhones, stealth aircraft, and AI, you honestly believe they just can’t pull off making the nearly 100yr old formula for TEL?

The global 100LL avgas market exceeds $2 billion annually, with over 200,000 piston aircraft worldwide, many for training future airline/mil/cargo/charter etc pilots.

The it’s only one place that can make it, and it’s such a tiny market talking point I hear many make just doesn’t hold factual water
 
Okay. Lets say you can get an unlimited supply of TEL from China that meets ASTM standards. So what's your plan to change, delay, or cancel the 2030/2032 sunset date of 100LL?

Yes

Use their own talking points and studies against them

All their own studies showed it doesn’t really hurt much of anything

And it’s such a tiny tiny tiny amount of fuel

We have much bigger things to worry about, (insert hot topic of the month) so next order of business on the gov docket
 
Yes

Use their own talking points and studies against them

All their own studies showed it doesn’t really hurt much of anything

And it’s such a tiny tiny tiny amount of fuel

We have much bigger things to worry about, (insert hot topic of the month) so next order of business on the gov docket
Who precisely is going to do that?
 
Bottom line is that the future availability and price of avgas suitable for the entire fleet is in question.
I would not be comfortable betting that I will be able to pull up the the gas pump in 2031 and buy 100LL.
I'm shopping hard for an airplane, but only mogas-capable. The Rotax-powered JMB models look really interesting. I'm pretty sure I can fuel it 4 years from now.
I wish I could say the same thing for a G-36 Bonanza.
 
The global 100LL avgas market exceeds $2 billion annually, with over 200,000 piston aircraft worldwide, many for training future airline/mil/cargo/charter etc pilots.
That market will be exactly $0 when TEL is outlawed... as it will be, and there's nothing you or anybody else can do about it. So instead of complaining about the injustice, support the search for a solution and move on.
 
Yes

Use their own talking points and studies against them

All their own studies showed it doesn’t really hurt much of anything

And it’s such a tiny tiny tiny amount of fuel

We have much bigger things to worry about, (insert hot topic of the month) so next order of business on the gov docket
They are as stubborn as you are.
 
That market will be exactly $0 when TEL is outlawed... as it will be, and there's nothing you or anybody else can do about it. So instead of complaining about the injustice, support the search for a solution and move on.

Based off how I read that, are you pro banning 100LL?

Frankly if it was not banned in say Mexico, not to hard to ferry it back.
 
Whose talking points and who will be leading the charge against "them?"


FYI: if its legal in Mexico and not legal in US, it wont be possible to "ferry" it back.

The folks who want to ban 100LL for no logical reasons

Hopefully anyone who loves aviation

lol, one of the very large tanks in my boat begs to differ.

So you fly, boat, drive to MX, top off and drive back, you think they are going to test fuel? They have much bigger (thankfully) fish to fry
 
Been to Mexico in the last few years? Lifetime Texas resident here and I haven't crossed the border in over 25 years. How do you fly back down to Mexico in your Cirrus after you've burned all that fuel hamburger hopping around Illinois?
 
Based off how I read that, are you pro banning 100LL?
You need to work on reading comprehension. All I said is that it's going to be banned, nothing anybody can do about it, so accept it and move on. What I want has nothing to do with it.

But yes: When it's banned, as it will be, I will be happy to be able to buy a fuel at my local airport that doesn't require me to pick lead balls out of my spark plugs and deal with stuck or leaking valves. I would be happy with leaded 80/87, too, but that's going to come back either.
 
You need to work on reading comprehension. All I said is that it's going to be banned, nothing anybody can do about it, so accept it and move on. What I want has nothing to do with it.

But yes: When it's banned, as it will be, I will be happy to be able to buy a fuel at my local airport that doesn't require me to pick lead balls out of my spark plugs and deal with stuck or leaking valves. I would be happy with leaded 80/87, too, but that's going to come back either.
I need work on many things, as my chica would tell me


But if you’re picking lead out of your plugs that’s a separate issue

If you have a small low power engine, why not just get a mogas STC now?
We have mogas STC for our small plane, it’s awesome, but the larger plane needs 100LL

But saying you have a low power plane and can run mogas, F’ those with over 4 seater, that ain’t cool IMHO

How would you feel if I said no one who doesn’t log over 400hrs a year and does formal level D training every 6mo shouldn’t be able to fly without a paid CFI?
 
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The folks who want to ban 100LL for no logical reasons. Hopefully anyone who loves aviation
So you want someone else to spend their time and money, to give you the ability to use 100LL in your aircraft with no time or money provided by you. Correct?

lol, one of the very large tanks in my boat begs to differ.
So what fuel do you currently bring into the US from Mexico that is banned?

So you fly, boat, drive to MX, top off and drive back, you think they are going to test fuel?
Once 100LL is banned. Sure. Just like other things.

Perhaps think about moving to Australia. They've publicly stated any ban of 100LL in the US will not affect their supply well into the future.
 
So you want someone else to spend their time and money, to give you the ability to use 100LL in your aircraft with no time or money provided by you. Correct?


So what fuel do you currently bring into the US from Mexico that is banned?


Once 100LL is banned. Sure. Just like other things.

Perhaps think about moving to Australia. They've publicly stated any ban of 100LL in the US will not affect their supply well into the future.

Im a American, my values are not compatible with Australia

If our US current politicians “bans” 100Ll based on nonsense I’d 100% load my tanks and bring it in from Mexico, that’s just me calling nonsense
 
China, capable of producing iPhones, stealth aircraft, and AI, you honestly believe they just can’t pull off making the nearly 100yr old formula for TEL?
Given our weird "frenemy" relationship, the next question is whether they'd be willing to sell it to us and whether our feds are willing to allow it in.
 
Based off how I read that, are you pro banning 100LL?
Very few are "pro banning 100LL". (maybe a few). What many people are is pro being able to continue to fly our planes with a fuel that works. G100UL works well for the detonation issues, the material compatibility has been an issue of unknown severity. It's also fully miscible with 100LL which would make the shift pretty straightforward. The two other candidates so far don't have material issues, but are questionable on detonation margin.

You rail against it, but your solution is to get your own fuel from Mexico. That might work for you and maybe 10 other people, but not for the vast majority of US pilots.
 
You rail against it, but your solution is to get your own fuel from Mexico. That might work for you and maybe 10 other people, but not for the vast majority of US pilots.

If it is banned and someone transports it into the country illegally it might not be worth the costs if caught doing so ...
 
If our US current politicians “bans” 100Ll based on nonsense I’d 100% load my tanks and bring it in from Mexico, that’s just me calling nonsense
And this is the point you continue to miss. They already have "banned" 100LL and the current congress has moved on to other more important things. Regardless, as for smuggling in 100LL I dont think you've fully thought that out unless you are the only one who services, maintains, and flies the aircraft. But even that is not a guarantee you wouldnt get caught.

Im a American, my values are not compatible with Australia
Well maybe try Alaska then as they get an extra 2 years on the ban.
 
But China you're good with?

I’m cool with them making nasty stuff like batteries etc

And this is the point you continue to miss. They already have "banned" 100LL and the current congress has moved on to other more important things. Regardless, as for smuggling in 100LL I dont think you've fully thought that out unless you are the only one who services, maintains, and flies the aircraft. But even that is not a guarantee you wouldnt get caught.


Well maybe try Alaska then as they get an extra 2 years on the ban.

Getting caught getting gas which I’m storing in a gas tank?

Pretty low risk IMO

And again if 100ll is such a tiny market I doubt they’d even check for it
 
Im a American, my values are not compatible with Australia

If our US current politicians “bans” 100Ll based on nonsense I’d 100% load my tanks and bring it in from Mexico, that’s just me calling nonsense
Tilting at windmills today are we?

What if you live in NE? Or OH? Gonna drive thousands of miles with a hazardous substance that's banned in the US? I'm sure that will work out well.

We are talking about a product that sells about $1-2B in revenue a year. We have been blessed in the US to have a big and strong aviation community. It was partially based on the thrill of aviation that ensued following WWII. Although all of its orignal boosters and even their descendants are now dead, the attitude of the aviation community is still that it is both loved by the nation as a whole, and indispensable. Not sure either are true. To a first order, only the US, France, UK, Germany, Australia, and Canada have somewhat robust GA communities. Yet all the other countries in the world seem to more or less to do ok.

If tomorrow all the aircraft that require 100LL were grounded, it would not even be a rounding error in the US economy. Sure locally businesses would be hurt, but overall, not that much. There are maybe 100k piston aircraft that fly in the US (50% of the registered aircraft). At $100k each, that's something like $10B in total asset value.

We need a 100LL substitue first, then technology(ies) that will permit the us of standard gasoline. Or we all fly Cirrus (-K) for transport and whatever old or homebuilt runs on car gas for fun.

Fly the heck of anything that requires 100LL, hope the political winds change, that the chemists/engineers win, and enjoy GA life at it is now.
 
...Once 100LL is banned. Sure. Just like other things.

Perhaps think about moving to Australia. They've publicly stated any ban of 100LL in the US will not affect their supply well into the future.
Australia is much like a warm Alaska. GA plays a much larger role in necessary community functions.

If Innospec follows through with shuttering their TEL production, and there are no other producers as claimed by some, where is Australia going to get TEL?

For that matter, where is Australia getting its TEL today?
 
If you have a small low power engine, why not just get a mogas STC now?
As I said earlier, I don't need an STC as I'm experimental, but ethanol free mogas is not allowed to be sold in my state, nor is it available at any airport I know of within hundreds of miles.

But saying you have a low power plane and can run mogas, F’ those with over 4 seater, that ain’t cool IMHO

I didn't say that either. But it's no different from you saying, "I have a 4 seater that needs 100LL, F' those with low compression engines that are damaged by excessive lead?"

When (not if) 100LL becomes unavailable in the US, it will become available in Mexico too, as their market is too small to support it. But that whole line of thought is silly, as you'd still have to use UL any time you filled up away from home.
 
Given our weird "frenemy" relationship, the next question is whether they'd be willing to sell it to us and whether our feds are willing to allow it in.

BINGO! Spot-on!

There is a reason that global economies are starting to reduce Geo-political supply chain risk.
 
And again if 100ll is such a tiny market I doubt they’d even check for it
And what makes you so confident considering there's zero history on this? Also, once you fill up your aircraft what makes you so sure a line boy or mechanic won't notice. Then what? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to spot 100LL.
 
As I said earlier, I don't need an STC as I'm experimental, but ethanol free mogas is not allowed to be sold in my state, nor is it available at any airport I know of within hundreds of miles.



I didn't say that either. But it's no different from you saying, "I have a 4 seater that needs 100LL, F' those with low compression engines that are damaged by excessive lead?"

When (not if) 100LL becomes unavailable in the US, it will become available in Mexico too, as their market is too small to support it. But that whole line of thought is silly, as you'd still have to use UL any time you filled up away from home.

Mogas is sold in both CT & NY, most any marina fuel dock has it, think I even posted a link for you once


I have a small continental engine as well, I run both mogas and 100ll, the 100ll 100% does NOT damage the engine


We will see where the 100ll nonsense attempted ban goes, I for one will not comply if possible

Just how I was raised, I’ll fight the good fight as never allow myself to call a thing something that it’s not.


IMG_1051.jpeg

On the bottom
True Value Power Equip
228 Rt 81, Killingworth, CT 860-663-2531
ethanol-free VP RACING 94

On the right
Alan's Small Engine Srv
112 Bridge Rd, Haddam, CT
860-345-2022 ethanol-free UNBRANDED 95

Plus a few marinas on the river
 
And what makes you so confident considering there's zero history on this? Also, once you fill up your aircraft what makes you so sure a line boy or mechanic won't notice. Then what? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to spot 100LL.

I fuel my own planes, for a few reasons.

I have had line guys hand me the nozzle before, though I typically avoid airports big enough to have full service.

Between not putting caps back on, wrong fuel, wrong amount, and scratches on paint and exhausts, I pump my own gas.
 
Mogas is sold in both CT & NY, most any marina fuel dock has it, think I even posted a link for you once


I have a small continental engine as well, I run both mogas and 100ll, the 100ll 100% does NOT damage the engine


We will see where the 100ll nonsense attempted ban goes, I for one will not comply if possible

Just how I was raised, I’ll fight the good fight as never allow myself to call a thing something that it’s not.


View attachment 150299

On the bottom
True Value Power Equip
228 Rt 81, Killingworth, CT 860-663-2531
ethanol-free VP RACING 94

On the right
Alan's Small Engine Srv
112 Bridge Rd, Haddam, CT
860-345-2022 ethanol-free UNBRANDED 95

Plus a few marinas on the river
I suppose you fly a seaplane? Marinas don't help us otherwise. Schlepping a bunch of gas to an airport isn't very workable. And as pointed out by @Dana, ethanol-free automobile gas isn't sold in many places. Please suggest a workable solution rather than something that works for your unique circumstances.
 
I suppose you fly a seaplane? Marinas don't help us otherwise. Schlepping a bunch of gas to an airport isn't very workable. And as pointed out by @Dana, ethanol-free automobile gas isn't sold in many places. Please suggest a workable solution rather than something that works for your unique circumstances.

Marinas are where boats get to land
..I’d think someone called Cap’n would know this ;)

Thus a marina is accessible by road

I have a cheap tank off Craigslist in my truck I fill up and then put in my hangar, it’s pretty easy.

Other folks have those bed mounted fuel tanks in their trucks with a nozzle attached, also pretty easy.

In fact it’s LESS work not having to taxi over and fuel up at the fuel farm, especially if you have a few weekend warriors taking a eternity at the pumps, or someone who fuels up and then goes into the airport building to use the bathroom or something while their plane is blocking the pumps.

Very quick Craigslist search
275gal, 25 bucks each
IMG_1056.jpeg

127gal Transfer tank complete with hose and nozzle

IMG_1057.jpeg
 
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