SR22T down outside Raleigh

Auburn2002 said:
Just to touch on this point, some of the most successful people in the world got there by taking what many of us would consider huge risks. But you know what they say, high risk high reward. Right up until it isn't.
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Grum.Man said:
Or inherited wealth.
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What does how/when/where a person got whatever wealth they have make one lick of difference? Oh that’s right, “rich man bad”, right?
 
eman1200 said:
What does how/when/where a person got whatever wealth they have make one lick of difference? Oh that’s right, “rich man bad”, right?
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Simply pointing out ones wealth has no bearing on their decision making or risk taking. It can be earned, risked, or inherited. If anything I would think abundant wealth would make you more risk adverse when it comes to aviation. No need to worry about every dollar spent, missing a work day, or having to purchase an airline ticket.
 
I will point out that I was shopping for a SR22 around the same time as this sale was reported. Planes like this one were in the $500,000 range depending on hours. Lots of money. But 1970’s C182s with decades old avionics were in the $150,000-$200,000 range. Anything with a WAAS G1000 was considerably more than that and arguably close to SR22s. You could pick up Non-WAAS G1000 airplanes but if you factored in the cost to upgrade to WAAS (which is no longer possible for some planes I’ve read) it is not a huge jump to the SR22.

I’m not saying everyone should buy a Cirrus, nor am I saying it’s great deal. I’m just pointing out that relatively speaking the price difference compared to contemporary aircraft in the same class isn’t huge. I do not believe that net worth has anything to do with this tragedy.
 
eman1200 said:
What does how/when/where a person got whatever wealth they have make one lick of difference? Oh that’s right, “rich man bad”, right?
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It was the opposite that was proffered first - that the pilot must be successful and educated because he owns a Cirrus. I think the point is that is a false correlation. Nobody is saying “rich man bad” but there are plenty of examples of people that have the ability to own an aircraft (or whatever expensive analog) in a way that didn’t require education or earned success. And I’m not saying that in any way about this pilot because I know nothing about him and haven’t even considered that in relation to this accident.
 
Flying Keys said:
It was the opposite that was proffered first - that the pilot must be successful and educated because he owns a Cirrus. I think the point is that is a false correlation…..
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Yeah I didn’t even bother addressing that because, well, reasons.
 
eman1200 said:
What does how/when/where a person got whatever wealth they have make one lick of difference? Oh that’s right, “rich man bad”, right?
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That's not even remotely what I said nor implied, but if that's the direction you chose to take it that's on you.
 
There are plenty of case studies of successful people learning the hard way that skill in one area does not always generalize into other areas. In aviation it was a meme before memes were cool. Remember the Fork Tailed Doctor Killer?
 
eman1200 said:
What does how/when/where a person got whatever wealth they have make one lick of difference? Oh that’s right, “rich man bad”, right?
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I've seen a lot of rich dudes lack common sense. Fewer self made rich dudes seem to lack that trait
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
If local news is correct and he was having radio, nav and engine issues since shortly after launch, then here's a thought experiment:
Why on god's green ****ing earth would you take your plane 20 miles out over the Atlantic with your family onboard if you were having those problems? That seems like a death wish.
View attachment 142697
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Stupid people have pilots certificates.
 
Flying Keys said:
I wouldn’t correlate education or intelligence with owning any particular type of aircraft. Heck, owning an aircraft could be put into a “bad decision” bucket for a lot of people, despite their ability to go into debt in order to do so.
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I would argue that no matter what level you are, most of us are nuts for participating in this flying addiction. However, it sure is fun.
 
Racerx said:
I've seen a lot of rich dudes lack common sense. Fewer self made rich dudes seem to lack that trait
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Interesting observation, and I agree, with very few exceptions.

Seems the allure of a parachute (IMO) to save their bacon seems to attract a higher percentage of pilots who are prone to taking risks, and also not having the time to spare to maintain an acceptablelevel of proficiency.

A Cirrus crashed killing a successful businessman owner and his associate (don't know if old or new $) vacated the hangar that is now keeping my Mooney dry. He iced up soon after beginning to cross the mountains with temps reported on the ground at or below freezing everywhere in the state. Waited for 10 minutes before reporting ice and reversing course. Stalled it in during a late right turn onto the localizer of the closest ILS.

Upon inspection of the pieces, it was discovered the safety pin to the parachute was still in place.
 
At times folks may not appear highly intelligent or overtly ignorant. All kinds of people find money in different ways. Consider Roy ... a talented man that many admired and I'm guessing not many thought would leave the planet this way:

planeandpilotmag.com

Disturbing NTSB Report On Crash Of Pitcher Roy Halladay - P&P

Pitcher Roy Halladay was killed in the crash of his Icon A5 in 201. The NTSB’s factual report catalogs a wealth of concerning details.
planeandpilotmag.com planeandpilotmag.com

John Denver (mentioned in the article) appeared a rational, loveable, and quite successful man and yet he put himself in a position that, most would say, was easily avoidable. All that to say, ya just never know ... :dunno:
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
If local news is correct and he was having radio, nav and engine issues since shortly after launch, then here's a thought experiment:
Why on god's green ****ing earth would you take your plane 20 miles out over the Atlantic with your family onboard if you were having those problems? That seems like a death wish.
View attachment 142697
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This time of year you can almost bank on tall cumulus buildups inland and along the coast due to a steady wind inflow off the cooler ocean feeding into the warmer thermals inland. Some develop into severe storms, some do not. Some ultimately drift offshore, and some do not. Lots of bumpy buildups in-between what's displayed that are too new to have enough moisture to paint (and they're real bumpy in and around them).

By remaining offshore his ride appears to be smooth and in severe clear. Twenty miles offshore seems excessive (I've never had to go that far offshore to remain VFR), but 11,500 was likely a nice, smooth and cool ride for the family without any weaving and bobbing around very bumpy cumulus buildups... except when he flew inland between Savannah and Charleston where there was still likely plenty of room to navigate VFR between any tall buildups. But not as smooth a ride.

Disregard the exact locations of precipitation displayed on this Flightaware presentation. Timing of where the precipitation is at many points on the map is not what usually what was there as he flew by.
 
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Daleandee said:
At times folks may not appear highly intelligent or overtly ignorant. All kinds of people find money in different ways. Consider Roy ... a talented man that many admired and I'm guessing not many thought would leave the planet this way:

planeandpilotmag.com

Disturbing NTSB Report On Crash Of Pitcher Roy Halladay - P&P

Pitcher Roy Halladay was killed in the crash of his Icon A5 in 201. The NTSB’s factual report catalogs a wealth of concerning details.
planeandpilotmag.com planeandpilotmag.com

John Denver (mentioned in the article) appeared a rational, loveable, and quite successful man and yet he put himself in a position that, most would say, was easily avoidable. All that to say, ya just never know ... :dunno:
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Not the best examples. Halladay had a drug cocktail and Denver absolutely should not have had a medical due to repeated alcohol offenses.
 
Racerx said:
Not the best examples. Halladay had a drug cocktail and Denver absolutely should not have had a medical due to repeated alcohol offenses.
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You, yourself said, "I've seen a lot of rich dudes lack common sense." I was simply giving examples ...
 
TRC1969 said:
All souls on board had to be incapacitated. There is no way an experienced pilot could make that many errors. There is also no way a person in the copilot's seat would let the thing nose dive into the ground. They may pull the chute at 190 KTS but they would have pulled it.
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I always wonder in these situations if the PIC taught any and all passengers how to pull the CAPS in advance. It's not something most people will figure out how to do if they aren't explicitly taught, and on top of that, almost no one will know it exists without said instruction. It's like expecting passengers on a ship to enter lifeboats in an emergency when they've never seen the ocean.
 
A couple of observations. When the ADS-B failed, altitude would have to be a pilot reported value or the last one that was in the ATC system, so the 11,700 pressure altitude shown on FlightAware is not indicative of the actual altitude the aircraft was at. If the trim did not have electrical power available, one would assume it is still set for cruise and when slowing down for the descent and landing, it might be an issue to overcome the trim setting. Under these circumstances, control forces could lead to an upset. This would be exasperated by flaps that would not be deployable. Alternator 1 is gear driven off of the front of the engine. There is an elastomer clutch mechanism used to prevent a frozen alternator shaft to cause an engine failure, but the general advise is that if you experience an alternator failure, you should land as soon as possible because of the threat of an engine failure. Very sad that the pilot decided to continue on to his destination.
 
The evolution of belt driven to direct drive is a great example for the importance of teaching learning "systems".
 
From the NTSB preliminary report:

"The airplane was equipped with a Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS), which was not deployed. The handle inside the cockpit, used to deploy the ballistic parachute in flight, was found to have the ground securing pin installed."
 
Ed Haywood said:
FBO received cell phone call from wife saying they were on 5 mile final with engine trouble.

NTSB says one tank was empty and other contained 3 gallons.
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Do we know whether the autopilot was still engaged? I can easily imagine that the engine quits, the pilot becomes distracted with troubleshooting and attempting a restart, and meanwhile the altitude hold of the AP pulls the plane into a stall.
 
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Flying Keys said:
Did not say anything about the cruise altitude following the electrical failure or how much fuel they started with.
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Considering their last commo was 5 mile straight in final for emergency landing, I'd say it is safe to assume the ADS-B altitude data was bogus.

Most likely scenario: preoccupation with electrical issues and loss of avionics caused fuel mismanagement. Pilot misdiagnosed fuel exhaustion as "rough running" and wasted critical time and altitude trying to save the plane. Loss of trim made it difficult to control aircraft in slow flight, resulting in stall/spin. Pilot panicked and failed to pull chute.
 
The Cirrus has an automatic fuel selector valve that would be inop if the electrical system was dead which it appears to be, even the essentials. Also wouldn't have had fuel indications. Running out of fuel at low altitude with no starter should the propeller stop windmilling. Just can't understand why you wouldn't use the chute... Sad to read.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Considering their last commo was 5 mile straight in final for emergency landing, I'd say it is safe to assume the ADS-B altitude data was bogus.

Most likely scenario: preoccupation with electrical issues and loss of avionics caused fuel mismanagement. Pilot misdiagnosed fuel exhaustion as "rough running" and wasted critical time and altitude trying to save the plane. Loss of trim made it difficult to control aircraft in slow flight, resulting in stall/spin. Pilot panicked and failed to pull chute.
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Yeah, as someone said above, it seems that when the ADS-B data isn’t being transmitted, Flightaware ingests data from the ARTCC that shows whatever it was tagged up as by ZDC when it was a primary-only target.
 
Grum.Man said:
The Cirrus has an automatic fuel selector valve that would be inop if the electrical system was dead which it appears to be, even the essentials. Also wouldn't have had fuel indications. Running out of fuel at low altitude with no starter should the propeller stop windmilling. Just can't understand why you wouldn't use the chute... Sad to read.
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The G7 has the automatic fuel selector. Prior versions have a manual fuel selector. This was a G3 so manual fuel valve. But 0 fuel in one tank and 3 gal in the other leads me to believe the problem wasn’t with the fuel selector

The fuel warning light comes on when either tank is below 15 gallons (too soon in my opinion).
 
szwinger said:
The G7 has the automatic fuel selector. Prior versions have a manual fuel selector. This was a G3 so manual fuel valve. But 0 fuel in one tank and 3 gal in the other leads me to believe the problem wasn’t with the fuel selector

The fuel warning light comes on when either tank is below 15 gallons (too soon in my opinion).
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Ah ok my bad
 
The holes in the swiss cheese are all lined up. The plane did the very best it could with what was going on, but the pilot was determined to keep on despite MULTIPLE signals not to do so.

Let this be a lesson in ADM. Read and know your POH and aircraft systems. When training is offered - take it. Practice emergency procedures. Conduct proper preflight. And most importantly, aviation is unforgiving, and get-thereitis can be, and often is, fatal.

A Cirrus, an excellent aircraft with all its fancy electronics and advanced features, will not save you from poor ADM, and this accident proves this point. No one is invincible

RIP to the family, and my condolences to the family and friends impacted by this preventable accident.
 
Flying Keys said:
Grum.Man said:
Ah ok my bad
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Here’s the prelim:


Verified several things we had heard rumored (losing electrical off Palm Coast, calling the FBO to ascertain traffic and runway in use). The only real new information is the lack of fuel and the CAPS pin.

Did not say anything about the cruise altitude following the electrical failure or how much fuel
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I have to look most stuff up to refresh my memory. There are a lot of changes over the years with Cirrus even within the “generations”. G1, G2, G3, G5, G6 and G7. I think they’ve announced a G7 plus that has Autoland. Not sure if that’s standard or optional. But I also question auto switching. I haven’t checked closely but I sure hope they have a manual select too. The maintenance manual has specific serial number ranges to differentiate the changes within the Generations. Seems they like to automate some stuff that shouldn’t be. I wish there was a manual trim option and Prop control lever.
 
Not familiar with Cirrus procedures. I've seen YT videos of pilots putting their hands up and saying "CAPS available" as a flow upon reaching deployment altitude. When/where on the checklist is pulling the pin?
 
Hang 4 said:
Not familiar with Cirrus procedures. I've seen YT videos of pilots putting their hands up and saying "CAPS available" as a flow upon reaching deployment altitude. When/where on the checklist is pulling the pin?
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On my Icon you pull the pin prior to engine start.
 
Hang 4 said:
Not familiar with Cirrus procedures. I've seen YT videos of pilots putting their hands up and saying "CAPS available" as a flow upon reaching deployment altitude. When/where on the checklist is pulling the pin?
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My pin is on the ignition key ring. It hangs from the Chute pin until engine start. The drill they taught me was upon reaching 500 ft AGL, touch the chute handle and say “CAPS”. Retract flaps and say “FLAPS”, switch the MFD from the engine page to maps and say “MAPS”. For G5 and beyond it’s 600 AGL. I personally retract the flaps when I have sufficient altitude. And airspeed is above 90 KTS generally prior to 600 AGL.
 
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