Simplest panel possible & “Primary field of view”

AA5Bman

Line Up and Wait
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He who ironically no longer flies an AA5B
Hi all - have been contemplating a full panel overhaul for my plane. I went through a full panel redo on my last one and it has given me some perspective on what I’d want to do on this one, and that is: the simplest possible panel to achieve IFR compliant with a WAAS GPS.

This is partly because I don’t intend to fly IFR and only want the option as an “out”, partly for weight, partly for cost, partly for complexity and ease of use, and partly because the reality is that at this point I hardly even need the VFR-required instruments and won’t use the fancy stuff more than a couple times a year.

So… has anyone built a panel with this in mind, and what equipment did you eliminate?

Also, given the goal of simplicity, I was thinking about the implications of the “primary field of view” requirement for navigators - if you stuck the navigator directly in front of the pilot could you eliminate a separate indicator? Has anyone done this? Do the modern Garmin navigators satisfy the other requirements of that rule (I.e. being able to display all other annunciations), etc?

Would love input on the simplest panel possible!
 
You still need an indicator because the navigators don’t display glideslope. If you install a GPS175 (cheapest option), then you can put in a KI209 indicator (relatively inexpensive).
 
So... as already mentioned, you need an indicator to cover glideope.
I'm assuming certified aircraft, correct me if I'm wrong.

Do you intend to keep the vacuum gyros, or planning to replace them as well?
I'd recommend an electronic CDI/HSI for weight and maintenance reasons.

Next question is who is doing the installs?
Garmin products require you to use a dealer to install certified products, driving up the total cost.
With uAvionix products, for example, you can do most of the work under A&P supervision. So even if you're not saving that much in parts, you'll save a few AMUs in labor.

A minimalistic panel (excluding engine instruments) could be a mechanical Altimeter and ASI, three AV-30s (one ADI, one DG, one CDI/HSI), and a Garmin 355 (175 with COM).
I'd recommend a second NAV radio that gives you LOC/ILS capability, in case GPS goes on strike. Even better if it has a COM as well. Could have its own CDI or you can install a switching unit to have both use the same CDI.
 
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Do the modern Garmin navigators satisfy the other requirements of that rule (I.e. being able to display all other annunciations), etc?
No. You need an external CDI and if you are going to fly ILS or LPV, an external glideslope indicator.
 
The GPS175 and G5’s are sold “over the counter” and don’t need to be installed by a Garmin dealer. The GNC355 and GNX375 are not OTC.
 
The GPS175 and G5’s are sold “over the counter” and don’t need to be installed by a Garmin dealer. The GNC355 and GNX375 are not OTC.

Unless things have changed, the GNC355 is over the counter. The GNX375 is the only one of the three in the family that is dealer only.

Same with the GI275. Some are over the counter and others are dealer only.
 
If you install am IFR GPS navigator and a pair of G5s or GI275s pretty much everything is right in front of you, including the (required) CDI. EFIS displays make IFR almost too easy. My panel is basically a GNS-430, two G5s, and an STEC-20 autopilot. (The latter was added last. I flew quite a few years sans autopilot.) I have a backup NAV/COM/CDI that almost never gets used except to do VOR checks and monitor ATIS/ground/guard. I did put in a Lynx NGT-9000 for a nice ADS-B weather display, as well as ADS-B compliance, but I have other ways of getting in-flight NEXRAD in the cockpit (e.g. a hardwired AERA-510). But the workhorse units are the IFR GPS and the G5s. I pulled everything else out when the G5s went in: vaccuum system, ADF, and CDI. The #1 NAV/COM was pulled when the GNS-430 went in.

I would be cautious about thinking of IFR is something you would never do, but have as an "out." Instrument flight is something that requires currency and practice. It won't be "there" for you in an emergency if you are not keeping up proficiency. The best way to maintain an IR is to use it.
 
One other consideration is whether you are only after simplicity in front of the panel or whether you also want it simpler behind as well. A GI275+GNC355/GNX375/GTN650+GNC215+GTX345 setup would talk Ethernet to each other, which is fewer wires than if it were G5's or AV30's.
 
Please better define "simple." You are getting recommendations all over the map because everyone has a different idea of simple. You say you want to be IFR capable, but that you don't plan to really fly IFR (make sure you stay current/proficient regardless).

1. What plane is this for?
2. Is "simple" a stand-in word for "cheapest option available?" Or do you mean cleanest panel layout? Or most seamless integration? Most intuitive to use? Least possible failure modes? Fewest moving parts? Or something else entirely?
3. Will a (new or existing) autopilot be part of this "simple" panel?
 
By simple I mean literally the least amount of equipment possible. As in I’m leaning toward a single Comm, no VOR, and I think I just saw that Garmin’s latest Comm either doesn’t need an audio panel or has one internally? That kind of thing. It’s not necessarily for cost, although that is a happy byproduct. My plane lives entirely in the backcountry, the IFR is for backup in smoke which is hard to predict, and for the odd time I go to the coast and have to punch through a thin layer. Yes, I understand the proficiency issue and do maintain it.
 
By simple I mean literally the least amount of equipment possible. As in I’m leaning toward a single Comm, no VOR, and I think I just saw that Garmin’s latest Comm either doesn’t need an audio panel or has one internally? That kind of thing. It’s not necessarily for cost, although that is a happy byproduct. My plane lives entirely in the backcountry, the IFR is for backup in smoke which is hard to predict, and for the odd time I go to the coast and have to punch through a thin layer. Yes, I understand the proficiency issue and do maintain it.
Least expensive route: Buy an old GNS430W with an 8130 off of eBay and interface it with an analog CDI. (Incidentally, I have an old Collins IND-351A collecting dust on my shelf that I have been trying to sell for awhile.) Live with whatever primary instrumentation and audio panel you already have. You could accomplish this for the $5,000 range +/-.

Integrated audio panel route: You need to step up to the GTN750/750Xi to get the integrated audio panel. I have a GTN750 with the integrated audio panel and I love it. The bigger screen will increase your situational awareness as well, especially if you don't plan to go with an EFIS or MFD. You'll pay for the luxury of the bigger screen and integrated audio panel, though. Depending on if you buy a used GTN750 or go with the new 750Xi, you're somewhere between $12-20K to get this done, maybe a bit more depending on if you have a friendly labor rate. Oh, and you still need the analog CDI if you aren't going to touch the primary instrumentation.

To either of the above options, you could add in a few thousand more and get yourself a G5 HSI and skip the analog CDI. Added expense though. And at that point, it may make sense just to do a dual G5 stack so you can have a glass PFD and get rid of your vacuum system entirely. However, this is beyond your stated goal and would be ~$10K after accounting for installation costs.
 
By simple I mean literally the least amount of equipment possible. As in I’m leaning toward a single Comm, no VOR, and I think I just saw that Garmin’s latest Comm either doesn’t need an audio panel or has one internally? That kind of thing. It’s not necessarily for cost, although that is a happy byproduct. My plane lives entirely in the backcountry, the IFR is for backup in smoke which is hard to predict, and for the odd time I go to the coast and have to punch through a thin layer. Yes, I understand the proficiency issue and do maintain it.

Are we to assume that you have nothing in your panel to start with?

Going with the simplest possible, I think you could have three GI275s (AI, HSI, EIS), a single Com radio with built-in intercom, and a GNX 375. That'd be pretty simple but it'd cover all the bases except in the case of a GPS outage. If you switched to a GTN650 and a transponder for the radio stack you'd have the ground nav covered too.

Least expensive route: Buy an old GNS430W with an 8130 off of eBay and interface it with an analog CDI. (Incidentally, I have an old Collins IND-351A collecting dust on my shelf that I have been trying to sell for awhile.) Live with whatever primary instrumentation and audio panel you already have. You could accomplish this for the $5,000 range +/-.
That's going to cost more than $5000 - Usually, an IFR GPS costs $5000 just in installation - and it's a terrible idea given the waning support for the GNS series and the fairly high likelihood of needing to drop another $5000 plus equipment to install the inevitable replacement.

Integrated audio panel route: You need to step up to the GTN750/750Xi to get the integrated audio panel. I have a GTN750 with the integrated audio panel and I love it. The bigger screen will increase your situational awareness as well, especially if you don't plan to go with an EFIS or MFD. You'll pay for the luxury of the bigger screen and integrated audio panel, though. Depending on if you buy a used GTN750 or go with the new 750Xi, you're somewhere between $12-20K to get this done, maybe a bit more depending on if you have a friendly labor rate. Oh, and you still need the analog CDI if you aren't going to touch the primary instrumentation.
Who needs an audio panel? We're going for simple, aren't we?
 
That's going to cost more than $5000 - Usually, an IFR GPS costs $5000 just in installation - and it's a terrible idea given the waning support for the GNS series and the fairly high likelihood of needing to drop another $5000 plus equipment to install the inevitable replacement.
An installation like the OP is proposing would not be a 40-hour/$5,000 installation. Nonetheless, your point is well taken, and my estimate was probably low by around 2-3 AMUs.

After further consideration, going with either a GPS175 or a GNC355, depending upon OP's COM situation, is probably a better option. Installation cost compared to the GNS430W would be similar, and parts acquisition costs would only be about $1,500 more for a GPS175 or $3,500 more for a GNC355.

The GNS route does have one key advantage over the 175/355. It would afford future slide-in upgradability to an IFD440, should OP later decide that he wants a full-featured current-gen GPS/NAV/COM.

The parts cost alone for a new current-gen GTN Xi or IFD unit is difficult to justify for the OP's stated goals.

Who needs an audio panel? We're going for simple, aren't we?
OP implied interest in Garmin's integrated audio panel in post #15. A GTN750 can be paired with a GMA35 for integrated audio panel functionality. Not cheap, and again, my estimate was on the low side. Man, avionics prices just continue to climb at incredible rates. Probably $20K at least: $10-11K used prev-gen GTN750 + $3K GMA35C + installation.
 
By simple I mean literally the least amount of equipment possible. ...
You still need the required indicators for 91.205. My experience is that simple is never cheap; it’s usually really hard to do.

If the goal is least amount of stuff possible, I’d probably be looking at Dynon plus a navigator.
 
For the record, I’m not really concerned about cost. I had been on the schedule to do an $80k+ full panel, new GFC autopilot and just realized the whole thing is stupid. I fly almost exclusively from and to places to camp, hunt, and fish, and the only IFR I ever do is when caught out in smoke or through a thin layer. Simple is beautiful, lightweight, and easy, and a better fit for the plane.

Are we to assume that you have nothing in your panel to start with?

Going with the simplest possible, I think you could have three GI275s (AI, HSI, EIS), a single Com radio with built-in intercom, and a GNX 375. That'd be pretty simple but it'd cover all the bases except in the case of a GPS outage. If you switched to a GTN650 and a transponder for the radio stack you'd have the ground nav covered too.
@flyingcheesehead gets me. Yes, I would assume for this discussion that everything is gone from the panel. A GI275+GNX375+single Comm is along the lines of what I was thinking. Swapping the multiple GI275s for a G3X makes sense to me here, and I do wonder - do I really even need an audio panel? What’s an audio panel for, anyway, managing audio sources and volumes? The only audio I ever want to hear is Comm1, in this panel there would be no marker beacon to hear, no VOR or LOC to identify, etc. it is a 6-place plane so I think an intercom is in order, but audio panel? I dunno…
 
it is a 6-place plane so I think an intercom is in order, but audio panel? I dunno…

I was all with you until this bit. I figured (as I'm sure many of us did) that you were equipping a Super Cub, or a Maule, or Husky, or something similar-ish. And what you wanted to do made a lot of sense. But a 6-seater? Like a Bonanza or a Saratoga? That changes the equation a lot.

If that's correct, then first, yes of course you'll want an intercom, if you ever want to talk to your passengers. Most intercoms are now integrated with audio panels, so not doing so (in a 6-place airplane) would definitely be non-standard.

And that's the crux of the issue. In a more "bush-style" plane, minimal IFR equipage seems reasonable, not just to me but to potential buyers. But in a 6-place airplane, minimal IFR equipage and maybe not even an audio panel seems like it would just tank the resale value. I would guess that most people wanting to buy such an airplane would be planning on using it for at least some IFR use. And while some might say "hey, this is a good starting point for an avionics upgrade", many will more likely want at least to have the option to fly it IFR right away.

Of course, if you're not concerned about resale value, then have at it!
 
I think I just saw that Garmin’s latest Comm either doesn’t need an audio panel or has one internally?
Yes, this is correct. The GNC215 is a NAV/COM where you can buy a software unlock that enables the audio panel feature. However, it is a 2-place audio panel. The GTR205 is a COM where you can also buy a software unlock but it's a 4-place.

The PS-Engineering PAR200b is a 4-place audio panel that integrates a COM radio, but it's 2 boxes as opposed to the Garmin GNC215/GTR205 which are 1-box.
 
If the goal is least amount of stuff possible, I’d probably be looking at Dynon plus a navigator.
Good idea. But for the sake of due diligence, the Garmin equivalent would be a G3x plus a GTN750xi up front and a remote audio panel, remote engine analyzer converter and remote transponder hidden behind the panel.

Also for clarification, I believe the Dynon setup would also have a few extra remote boxes hidden somewhere.
 
Good idea. But for the sake of due diligence, the Garmin equivalent would be a G3x plus a GTN750xi up front and a remote audio panel, remote engine analyzer converter and remote transponder hidden behind the panel.

Also for clarification, I believe the Dynon setup would also have a few extra remote boxes hidden somewhere.

Agree, I was simply giving an option for the fewest protuberances which seems to be the OPs definition of simple.
 
But a 6-seater? Like a Bonanza or a Saratoga? That changes the equation a lot.

It's a beat up old 206 that has lived it's entire life on a 135 in the backcountry. If you saw it, you'd understand. Resale is not really my concern. I do want to clean it up but don't really want to make decisions based on what the next buyer might think about it.

Where I'm coming from is I put a really nice panel in the last plane I owned and never once used it to its fullest potential. I only flew probably 2-3 actual IFR flights on it, and maybe only once in actual IMC. IFR flying where I live is almost always a no-go because of very-high MEAs and icing, so it only happens in smoke or, again, when I fly to the coast and need to punch through a layer, which I do only judiciously. In the last panel, I put two VORs in it any never used either of them even once. I put a GTN650xi in and it was nice, but the real juice is on your iPad with a GPS/Data connection. The separate GTX345 was fine, but the best part of it was in providing GPS and ADS-B to my ipad, and that could be done through other means (e.g. GNX375), 2 Comms is a decent backup and might be the only "extra" worth having, but I only ever used the one partly because virtually all my flying is VFR to non-controlled fields and modern comms have been virtually 100% reliable in my experience.

In any case, for an ugly-duckling former 135 206 that has operated off rough strips its whole life now under my stewardship - for better or worse, hah! - simplicity and stripped-down functionality seems to be the name of the game, and this is what I'm hoping to achieve.
 
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My definition of simple is information presentation that’s very easy to interpret. Garmin got it right with the G3X. I added an iPad above my G3X for moving map. If I want to enlarge engine instruments? Tap the screen. Engage auto pilot? Tap the screen. Change radio or txp settings? Tap the screen. See detailed terrain view? There’s a screen for that. I use synthetic vision with HSI overlay and altitude/airspeed tapes overlayed as my primary view. It’s all very intuitive and comes natural after a couple of flight hours. For myself? Getting back into my round gauge Cessna takes getting used to every time. Between the two, my Cub’s panel is far superior in every way.

Simple isn’t cheap. My nephew just put a certificated G3X and G5 in his 180. $58K.
 

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Like I said, I'm not after cheap - I did suggest that I'd probably do a G3X before I went down the same functionality across a handful of GI275s.
 
Like I said, I'm not after cheap - I did suggest that I'd probably do a G3X before I went down the same functionality across a handful of GI275s.

What I like about either an HDX or a G3X over the -275s is one big screen along with a backup PFD. I can’t speak for the G3X/GTN, but I seem to recall the HDX can remotely control the IFD comm selections on IFD series navigators and some transponders.
 
GPS175 ($5,500) and GNC355 ($7,750) can both be installed by a savvy A&P. They are excluded from the Garmin installation policy, meaning you do NOT have to have an approved Garmin dealer install them.
The 175 is just a WaaS GPS. The 355 is a WaaS GPS and a Nav/Comm. The 355 can be fed directly into a KI209 to give you GPS, VOR, and ILS guidance.

 
By simple I mean literally the least amount of equipment possible. As in I’m leaning toward a single Comm, no VOR
A single COM is a no-go for me for IFR. COM capability is probably your most important lifeline when flying IFR. If your single NAV/COM goes while IFR you are in a world of hurt. Emergency non-panel backup NAV is workable (tablets, phone, portable GPS etc.), but backup COM functionality (like a handheld) is borderline useless without additional hard-wiring.
 
Unless things have changed, the GNC355 is over the counter. The GNX375 is the only one of the three in the family that is dealer only.

Same with the GI275. Some are over the counter and others are dealer only.
Some are OTC and others require a prescription?
 
Some are OTC and others require a prescription?

Yes. GNX375 is a dealer only piece. The others in the series are not. Same with the GI275. Some are dealer only, depending on the features. Others are available OTC.

I would guess that the dealer network is doing most of the installations in TCd aircraft, regardless of whether or not the product is available OTC or not.
 
For the record, I’m not really concerned about cost. I had been on the schedule to do an $80k+ full panel, new GFC autopilot and just realized the whole thing is stupid. I fly almost exclusively from and to places to camp, hunt, and fish, and the only IFR I ever do is when caught out in smoke or through a thin layer. Simple is beautiful, lightweight, and easy, and a better fit for the plane.
Are you in Alaska? Either way, sounds fun!

@flyingcheesehead gets me. Yes, I would assume for this discussion that everything is gone from the panel. A GI275+GNX375+single Comm is along the lines of what I was thinking. Swapping the multiple GI275s for a G3X makes sense to me here, and I do wonder - do I really even need an audio panel? What’s an audio panel for, anyway, managing audio sources and volumes? The only audio I ever want to hear is Comm1, in this panel there would be no marker beacon to hear, no VOR or LOC to identify, etc. it is a 6-place plane so I think an intercom is in order, but audio panel? I dunno…
OK, glad my guess at your goal was correct. :)

As far as G3X vs multiple GI275s, that's definitely something worth considering. G3X+G5 gives you all the backup, engine gauges, etc and from my understanding the cost is similar to the cost of 3x GI275s though I have not quoted those setups.

It's a beat up old 206 that has lived it's entire life on a 135 in the backcountry. If you saw it, you'd understand. Resale is not really my concern. I do want to clean it up but don't really want to make decisions based on what the next buyer might think about it.
Do you use the back seats at all, or are you just hauling moose meat out of the backcountry with two seats up front? For only hearing Com1, you don't need an audio panel, but @RussR is right that separate intercoms aren't really a thing any more.

Where I'm coming from is I put a really nice panel in the last plane I owned and never once used it to its fullest potential. I only flew probably 2-3 actual IFR flights on it, and maybe only once in actual IMC. IFR flying where I live is almost always a no-go because of very-high MEAs and icing, so it only happens in smoke or, again, when I fly to the coast and need to punch through a layer, which I do only judiciously. In the last panel, I put two VORs in it any never used either of them even once. I put a GTN650xi in and it was nice, but the real juice is on your iPad with a GPS/Data connection. The separate GTX345 was fine, but the best part of it was in providing GPS and ADS-B to my ipad, and that could be done through other means (e.g. GNX375), 2 Comms is a decent backup and might be the only "extra" worth having, but I only ever used the one partly because virtually all my flying is VFR to non-controlled fields and modern comms have been virtually 100% reliable in my experience.

In any case, for an ugly-duckling former 135 206 that has operated off rough strips its whole life now under my stewardship - for better or worse, hah! - simplicity and stripped-down functionality seems to be the name of the game, and this is what I'm hoping to achieve.

Like I said, I'm not after cheap - I did suggest that I'd probably do a G3X before I went down the same functionality across a handful of GI275s.

OK, so to refine my earlier recommendation...

It sounds like you want at least the minimum equipment for basic IFR, plus GPS, ADS-B and other modern-day basics, with a simple panel layout being the main goal, not necessarily low cost, and you've got a six-seat 206.

My earlier recommendation was:
GI275 AI
GI275 HSI (and backup AI)
GI275 EIS
GNX 375 GPS + ADS-B Transponder
GTR205 Com radio with built-in intercom (or better yet, a GNC215 so you have ground based Nav in case of GPS outage/jamming).

I would add to that two things, because I agree with @RussR and @chemgeek that you should have 6-place intercom capability and a second radio for IFR, so add the following to the above:

PS Engineering PAR200B with 6-place expansion - This is a 6 place audio panel and com radio with 3D audio and bluetooth. It's cheaper than Garmin, and PS Engineering makes really good stuff.

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Option 2 - Because the above doesn't look quite so simple, it's possible to spend a little more money and get more capability *and* get a slightly simpler/cleaner panel layout IMO. That would look like this:

Single 10" G3X Touch display with EIS
G5 backup AI
GNC355 GPS/Com
GTR205/GNC215 #2 Com or Nav/Com radio

The above would be the only things visible in the panel, and we'd add a GTX345R transponder and GMA245R audio panel, both of which would be remotely mounted and controlled via the G3X Touch. If you can find a GTR20 remote com radio, you could even eliminate one of the radios above.

Note that the PAR200B could also be used here instead of the remote audio panel and GTR205 but you'd have no ground nav capability.
_______

In both cases, especially Option 2, I don't see any issue with resale value because if @AA5Bman decides to sell in the short to medium term, the buyer will probably be happy just adding a GFC500 and running with everything else that's already there.
 
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@flyingcheesehead We are definitely operating on the same wavelength. The problem I see with your options is that it kind of brushes aside the ADS-B requirement, which while operating generally remotely, still applies to me.

I guess now we are getting into quibbles about cost, but in either version above, I think a GNX375 + separate comm would be less expensive than a GNC355 + separate transponder so for that reason I have been thinking GNX375. I'll look into the PAR200B Audio/Comm... that's a good idea.
 
@flyingcheesehead We are definitely operating on the same wavelength. The problem I see with your options is that it kind of brushes aside the ADS-B requirement, which while operating generally remotely, still applies to me.
Huh? Not at all, all of my suggestions have a full ADS-B In/Out transponder?

I guess now we are getting into quibbles about cost, but in either version above, I think a GNX375 + separate comm would be less expensive than a GNC355 + separate transponder so for that reason I have been thinking GNX375. I'll look into the PAR200B Audio/Comm... that's a good idea.
So, I was looking at "Simple" being more important than "Cheap" - The reason for having the GTX345R with the G3X Touch would be to have one less box in the panel as it's remote and controlled through the G3X Touch. If you don't want another box in the plane at all, then you're back to a GNX375 and separate radios.
 
@flyingcheesehead you’re right, you addressed ADS-B. I still think a GNX375+separate comm is less expensive than a GNC355+separate transponder, but minor difference. I’m not sure remote anything is simpler per se, but it does reduce things on the panel.
 
@flyingcheesehead you’re right, you addressed ADS-B. I still think a GNX375+separate comm is less expensive than a GNC355+separate transponder, but minor difference. I’m not sure remote anything is simpler per se, but it does reduce things on the panel.
Well, it really depends on whether your definition of "simple" means "looks simple" (less in the panel) or "simple to install" (less in the airplane). ;) I was going for the "less on the panel" version.

FWIW, A GNX375+GTR205 is $12,280 and a GNC355+GTX345R is $14,990 so you're right on in terms of price.

So, if we're going for simpler overall (including less hidden boxes), how about this?

Single 10" G3X Touch display with EIS
G5 backup AI
GNX375 GPS/Txp/ADS-B
GNC215 #1 Nav/Com
PAR200B #2 Com/Audio Panel with 6-place expansion

That gives you everything but autopilot: IFR instrumentation, engine gauges/monitor, WAAS GPS, ADS-B in-out transponder, 6-place intercom, dual com, and a single nav in case GPS goes south.

And I know it wasn't one of your priorities, but resale value/ease is still good, you're really not "missing" anything with this setup except the autopilot, and all the next guy would have to do is add the servos and the button/knob unit since both the G3X and the G5 can act as the brains.
 
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