Saying 2.5 instead of 2500, etc?

Discussion in 'Change to my Frequency...' started by CC268, Nov 9, 2017.

  1. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,118
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I’m still looking for a good answer where the pretty common convention of dropping the thousands originated. Been curious about that one for years. I suspect the abbreviation is a military carryover used for a number of things but that’s just a WAG.

    I don’t use it, except when copying a clearance, but don’t get overexcited about it.
     
  2. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,118
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Really? A pilot hearing "descend and maintain tree thousand fife hundred" but reading back "leaving seven point oh for three point five" is going to confuse the same pilot into remaining at altitude and switching frequencies instead?

    Or do you have a scenario in mind I’m not thinking of. Remember, we’re talking pilot jargon, not ATC instruction.
     
    Kritchlow likes this.
  3. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    9,387
    Location:
    Southeast Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    This page intentionally left blank
    yo YO homies, Mooney 642 chillin' at 3500, word......
     
    paflyer and CC268 like this.
  4. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    8,474
    Location:
    Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    I still recall an aircraft coming into Opa Locka, identitying himself as “Bonanza triple seven sugar pop*”.

    When asked to clarify, he repeated “Bonanza triple seven sugar pop”.

    To which the tower said, “Aircraft calling Opa Locka Tower, if you’re trying to make things difficult, you’re succeeding. Say again call sign.”

    Again, I take pride in knowing and adhering to recommended phraseology. As someone else said, it’s just as easy to do it right as it is to insist on doing it wrong.


    *or something very similar - it was many decades ago, after all.
     
  5. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,402
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    It’s kind of like ‘with you’. Just developed over time. For whatever reason it really bothers some people.

    I don’t use either, but it never bothered me to hear it.
     
    MooneyTraveler likes this.
  6. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,635
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    That must have been a fairly young controller. I think most old timers would understand and accept "sugar" (siera), and "baker" (bravo).

    Certainly I agree about using terminology that is well understood, but some technically incorrect jargon is just so well known that it is understood.
     
    Radar Contact likes this.
  7. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,189
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    GeorgeC
    With the flash...
     
  8. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,635
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    That one I haven't heard in several years.
    Some jargon seems to withstand the test of time, while other seems to be a short lived fad.
    "Flash", and "fishfinder" were short lived fads in my experience.
     
  9. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    4,806
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    One of my brothers is ex-military, now flying B787s. He has zero tolerance for my non-standard phraseology when he's flying with me, and that lesson has stuck.
     
    Larry in TN likes this.
  10. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,789
    Location:
    KBAZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    It's alive and well in the military. But I'm on uniform so that probably helps the pedants on victor :D

    Your brother sounds like a real party on a 4-day :rolleyes:. L-AAmerican guys and their superior pilots (ask L-USair guys about that reference). I'm military, and I'll let ya d!ck up the radios anytime bud, as long as we're having a good time and don't hit anything. Tell ya what, next time he gives ya the ivory tower spiel,
    tell him to SETTLE DOWN, Capt Happy. ;):D
     
  11. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    9,139
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    I hope 'position checks' is short lived, that one annoys me for some reason.
     
  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,118
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I didn't start hearing that one until very recently. Seems unnecessary. If it doesn't conform, yes, it would be a very good idea to say something...

    ...or if asked for confirmation. While doing a local IFR proficient flight, on the climb out from the missed, rather than asked to say the altitude I was passing through, I was aksed to confirm the altitude the controller's radar showed. "Altitude checks" came out without even thinking. I still can't think of anything better. Just as good, maybe, but nothing inherently better.
     
  13. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    21,340
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Confirming altitude:

    "Affirmative two thousand" is what I use. YMMV.
     
  14. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    8,474
    Location:
    Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    I think I'd respond "Level at two thousand".
     
  15. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,189
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    If you check in by reporting the altitude you are leaving for the altitude you're climbing to, then you shouldn't get a confirm on the controller's side.
     
  16. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    9,387
    Location:
    Southeast Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    This page intentionally left blank
    Leaving two thousand three hundred, climbing five thousand
     
  17. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,635
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    Unless on your initial call you are not yet in radar contact.
     
    Velocity173 likes this.
  18. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,189
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Yeah, beneath radar they'll get back to you and then confirm altitude leaving. Possibly that's what happened the situation above.
     
    Kritchlow likes this.
  19. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,706
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    Position check, here’s your flash is from one of YouTube “stars” whose name escapes me (flys a TBM). Millennial generation lingo I guess.
     
  20. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    16,632
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Ive used it myself, though not text book, I have gotten any static over it.



    Tally ho!


    Think the "flash" is millitary, never said anything when asked to ident, my reply is the ident.
     
  21. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,189
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    In all seriousness, I don't use any of the slang/code word stuff. Don't say angels,tally,flash,fish finder, 2.5 and others when dealing with ATC. I guess I'm boring and lack flair. :(

    Don't get fired up when others use it though. Odds of it being a safety issue or the controller misunderstanding, slim.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
    Harold Rutila likes this.
  22. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,291
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shawn
    I cringe every time I hear that on the radio but to each his own...to me it sounds like an embarrassing wannabe goober that wishes they were able to fly in the flight levels with the big boys.
     
    Ryanb and Bill Jennings like this.
  23. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    4,941
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    I said "Any traffic in the area please advise" once. Thank god the Grumman Traveler doesn't have an ejection seat or @SixPapaCharlie would have used it on me! :)
     
  24. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    4,201
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CC268
    I think we can all agree that everyone on PoA is a superior pilot and no one here would dare to use non standard phraseology!
     
  25. ateamer

    ateamer Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
    Messages:
    508
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ateamer
    Reminds me of the old one about the guy who suspected his wife of having an affair with a pilot. When he confronted her, she responded "honey, if I've told you once, I've told you niner thousand times, negative on the affair!"
     
    paflyer and Palmpilot like this.
  26. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,706
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    What about “wilco”?

    Usually ident is paired with another request like “remain VFR and ident”, seems repeating non critical requests is a waste of bandwidth. I don’t repeat baro settings either.
     
  27. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    21,340
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Wilco is listed in the controller handbook and AIM. Now "roger wilco".....

    Wilco is also a popular band, so a pilot might be listening to them too. ;):D
     
    James331 likes this.
  28. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,635
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    Indeed the flight levels in the US start at 18,000', but many parts of the Caribbean I've seen as low as 4,000'.
    I have a lot of Caribbean experience, but 100% of it is IFR. I don't think you need to be IFR at 4,000, but I may be wrong about that.
    Anyway, I wonder how many here would do in that environment? Flight level 45 may be a bit foreign.
     
  29. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,118
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    That one is a little different since the AIM specifically says not to use it.
     
  30. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,378
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    ATC: “N123 Standby”
    N123: “Standing by”

    o_O
     
    paflyer likes this.
  31. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    14,685
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    The "2.5" thing bugs me, but I don't really have a good reason, other than not being in the AIM. To me it sounds like the pilot is trying to sound cool. :dunno:
     
    Tim likes this.
  32. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    4,806
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    4 tours in the ME, 3 of them in Afghanistan, two of those flying fling wings. He's a better pilot than I will ever be and my habit is to learn, not tell him what to do.

    One thing I have noticed, when he slides into the left seat of my plane his demeanour turns to one of calm concentration, and every motion is deliberate and consistent. He's helped me become a much better pilot.
     
    Jim_CAK likes this.
  33. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,118
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Whatever their origins, that’s where most jargon use comes from.
     
  34. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    16,632
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    [​IMG]
     
    denverpilot and Velocity173 like this.
  35. Stewartb

    Stewartb En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,619
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    stewartb
    I guess I’ll have to start sayin I’m at point six climbing to point nine. Or maybe it’s more hip to say dot nine?
     
  36. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Messages:
    3,866
    Location:
    Eclectic, AL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Hank
    I've been in IMC much lower than 4000, therefore I have needed to be (and was!) IFR. Flight Levels vary by country, and are whatever the country you're flying above and talking to says they are.
     
  37. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,635
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    Yes.... what's your point?
     
  38. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages:
    2,863
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dera
    The only thing that really bothers me is using "for" and "to" when reading back altitudes. Apart from that, keep trying to sound cool with your "two point five", just know that you don't :)
     
  39. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,247
    Location:
    Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kevin
    I guess I'm going to go against the grain here. As a controller at a busy TRACON I routinely hear short hand verbiage. i.e. "three point seven for five", "xxx with you eleven six descending to ten", "two ninety to intercept down to seven" and the list goes on. When the frequency gets congested, I appreciate it. As long as it's clear what you are doing, no issues. Likewise when flying I keep it short especially if the sector I'm talking to is busy. I think it has a lot less to do with trying to sound cool and more for efficiency on the freq. Fighter pilots are especially good at keeping it short and sweet...lot going on single pilot at a fast speed, they don't have time to BS. That said, as long as someone doesn't key up with their life story, the standard long version is fine too.
     
    mscard88 and James331 like this.
  40. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,189
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    "Departure, Blade 11 deck check climbing to two." :)