Restoration cost - rough idea?

[StraightnLevel]

As I'm starting to look at planes, it's clear that my budget drops me into a fairly wide range of options, and they range from flight-ready to....ahem....opportunities for improvement. Trouble is, I don't really know how to price the restoration work to get an idea of what the all-in, ready-to-fly investment would be. How do you compare a fully-restored example from one that is airworthy, but looks like it hasn't been touched in my lifetime? So:

What does it generally cost to re-paint a small GA aircraft? What drives that price up or down?

What about interior? To do a full restoration, i.e., carpet, seats, interior panels? What are the price drivers here?

What about a full re-instrument job? I think I know what a couple of G5s would cost, but how much is it if you're pulling out original steam gauges and going full glass, say a G1000? Yes, I can find the list price for the electronics and STC, but how much should I budget for a new panel and installation, worst case?

 

[bnt83]

Why not look at ads for similar aircraft that come near desired outcomes to get an idea?

 

[StraightnLevel]

Why not look at ads for similar aircraft that come near desired outcomes to get an idea?

I see those, but that doesn't help compare the costs of doing my own with a rough example vs. buying one already done.

At any given point in time, you're somewhat constrained by what's available that day. Say, for example, I wanted a later model (PA30C) Twin Comanche. It's not like there are always 8-10 on the market to choose from. If I see one that looks airworthy but with an interior or paint that guarantees my wife will not set foot in it, it would be nice to have a sense of whether it fits my overall budget including the restoration work.

 

[Anthem]

really depends on plane - this applies for paint, exterior, etc.

Paint is running about 25K (sometimes more, sometimes less) for a single engine piston. Some have flown it south of the border to get cheaper rates (probably less EPA/OSHA issues). But it isnt as easy to just spray painting. If its done right, it has to be completely stripped (and you want to do this as it adds weight), and all the control surfaces are removed and done individually. And then re-assembled.

Interiors - basic 6 seat airplane - probably 20-30K depending if you go moderately basic or one of the swankier interior companies. You can get this down to 12-15K if you dont plan on doing "everything" - like just seats and carpet. There is time involved in headliners, side panels, etc etc.

Avionics - if its a simpler upgrade, the labor is less. but a complete stack overhaul going glasspanel, dual navigators, etc - easily 60K. AutoPilot - additional 25K-35K depending upon type and such. The AP itself can run close to 20K from Garmin, STEC. Lots of labor in removing and re-installing multiple servos, testing, and what not. The only easy AP is if its an inplace upgrade - which STEC has been known for - where you get to re-use your existing servos. There are in place upgrades for say older Garmin GNS navigators to say Avidyne IFD440/540/550 series. Its literally a swap out (maybe a WAAS gps as well). And you'll get an advanced new GPS unit. But I caution you on the upgrade - it will only save you about 3K in installation cost over a new Garmin GTN navigator to be re-pinned. It costs the exact same as the current model Garmin - just the installation cost is saved. BUT - you'll now be eliminated from using a onePak or PilotPak subscription that Garmin sells to cover say a G1000, GTN750/GTN650 combo. And you'll have to pay for a Garmin subscription for your G1000 and an Avidyne subscription for your Avidyne units. Its not double - but its not insignificant either.

Should add - you are almost always better off buying it with good paint, interior, avionics. . . sometimes they look like its more - but the avionics are usually "discounted" as you cant put in 100K and necessarily expect 100K in boosted value (though many seem to think so)

 

[Bell206]

Trouble is, I don't really know how to price the restoration work to get an idea of what the all-in, ready-to-fly investment would be. How do you compare a fully-restored example from one that is airworthy, but looks like it hasn't been touched in my lifetime?

Unfortunately, there is no one answer as there are a number of variables that influence the numbers. For example, geographic location and even what is your definition of "restoration" vs refurbishment can cause huge swings in costs. From a maintenance standpoint, what I would recommend to potential owners when buying their 1st aircraft or 10th aircraft, is to set your budget and determine what you want for that money.

I also recommend that you select your mechanic first before the aircraft, as this can also have an influence in what your costs after purchase can be. Then sit down with him and start working out your before and after cost projections specific to the area and aircraft you want to buy.

Regardless, you will never spend less for a new panel, or paint job than what you can buy all ready installed or painted.

 

[frfly172]

Too many variables to accurately estimate a cost. You would have to price it out when you decide what airplane you’re interested in and what options you would be happy with. You could call various shops for a more accurate estimate.

 

[bradg33]

A "restoration" will almost certainly be uneconomical (from an ROI standpoint) if you're not doing a lot of the work yourself (or with your own employees that you're paying $20-40/hr, instead of a shop that you're paying $100+/hr. A lot of folks do restorations because they want to, not because it's going to be a good "investment."

 

[MooneyDriver78]

G1000s are only for new planes, for most of us it’s G3X or G500TXi.

Paint cost varies with scheme, number of colors, which colors, metallic/plain, etc

Avionics quotes seem to vary wildly, I think total upgrade with all new boxes, new custom panels…is more cost effective than upgrade a little over time. Shops like the total upgrade.

 

[TCABM]

…
What does it generally cost to re-paint a small GA aircraft? What drives that price up or down?

$20K and up. Quality, complexity, size of aircraft and labor rates.

…
What about interior? To do a full restoration, i.e., carpet, seats, interior panels? What are the price drivers here?

$10K & up depending on upholstery choices, side panels, etc., and any corrosion repair found when all the panels are removed. Labor rates.

…
What about a full re-instrument job? I think I know what a couple of G5s would cost, but how much is it if you're pulling out original steam gauges and going full glass, say a G1000?

Dual dynon w/AP, $30k & up before labor. Does not include a navigator.

Easily, $75K before downtime. Want a fresh motor and you’r looking at $125ish and likely downtime greater than a year.

 

[brcase]

If its done right, it has to be completely stripped

I recently watched them haul off a 182 for scrap, that had been improperly stripped. There is value in getting someone that knows what they are doing.

To OP's question, my impression with very little experience to back it up is unless you can do most of the work yourself, which rules out pretty much all but A&P's, you will get about 50% of our restoration/upgrade value back when you sell the airplane. Maybe 75% in the best case.

Others with more 1st hand experience can confirm or refute that opinion.

The advantages of a fixer upper for most people are they can either configure it like they want, or they can spread the cost out over a longer period of time, even if it costs more than buying what they want. Down side is the plane may be down for extended periods while the work is being done.

Otherwise most cost efficient is to buy as close to what you want as you can get to begin with.

Brian

 

[Salty]

Rough idea is everything you're willing to spend, and then a little more.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

If you want a nice plane....pay the money and buy it. You will not save money buy doing it yourself. Even as an A&P I/A....I won't make much doing it myself.

 

[kyleb]

The only benefit from buying an airplane and farming out all those upgrades is that you'll know everything is new, you'll have a warranty, and you'll have a relationship with the shops that did the work. You won't come out ahead financially, but if this is your end-all be-all airplane (the one you're gonna keep forever) it might be worth it from a non-financial perspective.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Rough idea is everything you're willing to spend, and then a little more.

That seems consistent with just about every life expenditure I've ever dealt with....

 

[StraightnLevel]

If you want a nice plane....pay the money and buy it. You will not save money buy doing it yourself. Even as an A&P I/A....I won't make much doing it myself.

It's not so much about saving money as much as finding the right sort of plane and understanding what I'm willing to deal with vs. must-haves at time of purchase.

For example, if I find something that is absolutely perfect except that the paint is 40 years old and looks 50, I would likely buy it and deal with the painting cost. Same for an interior. Engine? Probably not (knowing that this is an area of rolling the dice every time you fire it up).

It's helpful to have an idea of what things cost so that I don't get into a project that leaves me both broke and grounded at the same time.

 

[TCABM]

…
For example, if I find something that is absolutely perfect except that the paint is 40 years old and looks 50, I would likely buy it and deal with the painting cost. Same for an interior...

The thing about P&I and avionics is usually also likely add weight to the plane. Might only be 10lbs, might be more. That eats into useful load.

Everything in aviation is a compromise.

 

[Omalley1537]

It's not so much about saving money as much as finding the right sort of plane and understanding what I'm willing to deal with vs. must-haves at time of purchase.

For example, if I find something that is absolutely perfect except that the paint is 40 years old and looks 50, I would likely buy it and deal with the painting cost. Same for an interior. Engine? Probably not (knowing that this is an area of rolling the dice every time you fire it up).

It's helpful to have an idea of what things cost so that I don't get into a project that leaves me both broke and grounded at the same time.

You might rethink the engine part (if I understood you to mean you’d shy away from an airplane needing an engine). There’s pluses and minuses to everything as usual, but I’d strongly consider buying an airplane with great paint, interior, and especially avionics, but with a runout engine. The reason is that you will pay a significant premium on a low or mid-time engine. However, depending on how that engine was (or wasn’t) taken care of, you may get a full life from it, no life from it, or anything in between. If it craps out 25 hours in, you’ll now be paying for an overhaul and the premium you paid for the “low time” engine is wasted.

If you buy your ideal airplane with an engine at high-time, you can buy it at a price that factors in the overhaul cost, and if things look good, continue to fly it while you wait for your new engine. Every hour you do get is “free” time on the engine.

When considering the cost of avionics, don’t forget the substantial cost of installation labor, particularly if you are doing full-panel upgrades like glass, AP, etc.

 

[Jdm]

I’m doing a new 6 place leather interior with embroidery, accent pieces, arm rests, carpet, wind lace, and a few side panels. We’re at about $9,500 in interior fees, mostly for the seats. I’m doing the removal and installation myself, which is a lot of work. My best guess is it would be close to 2x as much at a full service interior shop.

 

[Jdm]

When considering the cost of avionics, don’t forget the substantial cost of installation labor, particularly if you are doing full-panel upgrades like glass, AP, etc.

Yes indeed. Here’s a pic of a lower instrument panel that I finished a few months ago. Converted an original multi piece degraded plastic overlay to a one piece metal lower with new switches, breakers, engine controls, environmental controls, etc. Cost about $2,500 in parts. Labor on the other hand was excessive. I’m ashamed to say it took close to 100 hours. Keep in mind I’m a one man show. Lots of research, paperwork, multiple trips to the airport, supply orders, back and forth with drawings, reworking dimensions, laser engraving, fitting, wiring, rigging, and the list goes on.

 

[Steamflyer]

Yes indeed. Here’s a pic of a lower instrument panel that I finished a few months ago. Converted an original multi piece degraded plastic overlay to a one piece metal lower with new switches, breakers, engine controls, environmental controls, etc. Cost about $2,500 in parts. Labor on the other hand was excessive. I’m ashamed to say it took close to 100 hours. Keep in mind I’m a one man show. Lots of research, paperwork, multiple trips to the airport, supply orders, back and forth with drawings, reworking dimensions, laser engraving, fitting, wiring, rigging, and the list goes on.

That is beautiful. And the kind of thing you can only do yourself and eat the labor.

It will almost never pay to "restore" and aircraft in terms of ROI. You do it because you like it better, it has better utility or safety, or because it's your "forever" plane and you don't care about being massively upside down. I've done three "forever" planes minus the paint - it can almost always be brought up with enough elbow grease to be good enough as long as the initial scheme is ok.

Lately I see fewer candidates that are worth doing a total redo on - the airframes are just too ratty or have had enough damage history that they really don't fly that straight.

When all is said and done that seems to be the key - can you trim the airframe such that it will fly hands off? If so, you will enjoy your restoration. If not, pass. Almost anything but bent can be fixed. Little by little the supply of clean airframes will dwindle because let's face it, the last surge in production was almost 50 years ago.

And 200k for paint, engine, avionics, and interior is not far from wrong, may be a bit low. You don't have to do it all at once of course.

 

[Florida Flyer]

Expensive

 

[StraightnLevel]

Lately I see fewer candidates that are worth doing a total redo on - the airframes are just too ratty or have had enough damage history that they really don't fly that straight.

When all is said and done that seems to be the key - can you trim the airframe such that it will fly hands off? If so, you will enjoy your restoration. If not, pass. Almost anything but bent can be fixed.

Good input - thank you!

And 200k for paint, engine, avionics, and interior is not far from wrong, may be a bit low. You don't have to do it all at once of course.

I wouldn't take on all four. I am more thinking about an example where the current owner has done one or two, say, engine and paint, but the interior and avionics are.....experienced.

 

[Pinecone]

My local FBO quoted me about $12,000 to do my Mooney interior using AirTex carpet and seat kits. This would include repair and painting of the plastic parts.

A full deal interior, meaning covering all the plastic parts with Ultra Leather, custom carpets and seat upholstery and leather covered yokes and nice embroidery can run over $25,000 plus removal and reinstall.

You can also price the AirTex stuff and do it yourself.

 

[StraightnLevel]

My local FBO quoted me about $12,000 to do my Mooney interior using AirTex carpet and seat kits. This would include repair and painting of the plastic parts.

A full deal interior, meaning covering all the plastic parts with Ultra Leather, custom carpets and seat upholstery and leather covered yokes and nice embroidery can run over $25,000 plus removal and reinstall.

You can also price the AirTex stuff and do it yourself.

How much interior work can you do yourself in a certified plane? What requires A&P signoff? For example, the lower panel shown above - can you do things like that without having to pay a shop, or is the panel off-limits even if you don't touch the actual avionics, wiring, etc.?

What constitutes an "appliance or component part" as stated in 43.3? What is an "approved training program" for replacing a seat cover? It seems that 43.3 and 43 Appendix A.3.(c).15 are contradictory....?

 

[Bell206]

How much interior work can you do yourself in a certified plane?

Everything as listed in Part 43 Appx A(c) and further defined as preventive maintenance in Part 1. However, there are limits such as items requiring removal/disassembly of primary structure or operating systems, altering the basic interior layout, etc.
This is also provided you are a certified pilot. But keep in mind if you are working under the supervision of an A&P you can perform whatever maintenance they are authorized to perform as well and are willing to sign off.

What requires A&P signoff?

Removal/disassembly of primary structure or operating systems, alterations to the basic interior design, empty weight & balance corrections over 1 pound, etc.

For example, the lower panel shown above - can you do things like that without having to pay a shop, or is the panel off-limits even if you don't touch the actual avionics, wiring, etc.?

No. That panel work above would be considered an alteration.

What constitutes an "appliance or component part" as stated in 43.3?

In general, aviation items are classified as “products” and “articles.” Appliances and components are a sub-set of those classifications:

What is an "approved training program" for replacing a seat cover?

??? If referring to 43.3(h) & (i) that only applies to Part 135 ops.

It seems that 43.3 and 43 Appendix A.3.(c).15 are contradictory....?

Not really. 43.3 defines who can perform the maintenance and 43 Appx A(c) lists "categories" of preventive maintenance.