Reno midair

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No, but I don't think it's a net win. I hate the crashes, but I believe that racing is valuable for innovation and I believe that the participants are adults who likely also believe that their sport has value.

Historically two things have really pushed innovation. War and racing. I prefer racing. It's voluntary, mostly peaceful, and the death ratio is lower.
I agree with Ryan. I won't miss them at all. And I don't get the innovation argument. What does it matter if someone can gain 5 knots by tweaking the airframes and power plants of aircraft designed and built decades earlier?

HHH

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….What does it matter if someone can gain 5 knots by tweaking the airframes and power plants of aircraft designed and built decades earlier?…

i’m not saying I agree or disagree, but when you’re flying a 172, 5kts is a big deal
 
I never knew there was so much bottled up hostility about the Reno Air Races. Its a free country, or at least it used to be. Let them race if they want to. Don't like it, don't go.

If we measured the merits of any activity on personal opinions of safety, none of us would ever be allowed out of the house.
 
...and all those spectators bought tickets, knowing about the potential danger.

The problem with the one major accident that hit the stands was because a piece of the trim tab wasn't sufficiently strong.
I think both of you need to read, or possibly re-read, the Galloping Ghost final. To say that the spectators knew about the potential danger and that the trim tab wasn't sufficiently strong completely misses the point of the maintenance and test practices that lead to that accident. Did people understand the probable outcomes if an accident were to occur? Certainly, I would hope, but I bet few had any idea of the probability of occurrence. There is the perception that these airplanes are impeccably maintained; however, this was far from the case in this accident, according to the NTSB at least; and I doubt many spectators were aware of that.

I have no stake in air racing. It doesn't matter to me if it continues or not, but I think using spectator responsibility and soft-pedaling root causes to justify cutting corners is irresponsible.

Nauga,
who doesn't think you're to blame when I screw up
 
So you confirmed I was right and want more proof?
Nope. I confirmed you're wrong. Air Racing has recently killed many more spectators than pilots, while car racing recently kills many more drivers than spectators. Unless you have some contrary data.
 
And frankly, that’s what it should be focused on.
The market has clearly spoken with the success of the Vans line of aircraft. Most people would give up all out speed for better manors and lower operating cost. Airplanes like the Legacy, Glasair III, SX300, and Venture are all but extinct now when it comes to new builds.
 
I think both of you need to read, or possibly re-read, the Galloping Ghost final. To say that the spectators knew about the potential danger and that the trim tab wasn't sufficiently strong completely misses the point of the maintenance and test practices that lead to that accident. Did people understand the probable outcomes if an accident were to occur? Certainly, I would hope, but I bet few had any idea of the probability of occurrence. There is the perception that these airplanes are impeccably maintained; however, this was far from the case in this accident, according to the NTSB at least; and I doubt many spectators were aware of that.

I have no stake in air racing. It doesn't matter to me if it continues or not, but I think using spectator responsibility and soft-pedaling root causes to justify cutting corners is irresponsible.

Nauga,
who doesn't think you're to blame when I screw up

Also, "It was just one freak accident," and "People clearly understood the risk," are somewhat antithetical claims.
 
Welcome to the board I guess.
thanks for the warm welcome. I’m happy to help you guys take off your blinders and accept what a trivial discussion this really is.

And I’ve done aerobatics and formation my entire career. Did my stint in military jets too. Life long pilot but I still think this whole racing thing is reckless and again, and 95% of it being a playground for wealthy people to flex.

I wish the association luck in finding a new spot that’s rural enough to accept them and the liabilities that come along with it. They’ll certainly need all the luck they can get. In the meantime, good riddance.
 
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I never knew there was so much bottled up hostility about the Reno Air Races. Its a free country, or at least it used to be.
FWIW, it was never a free country. The only question is who was being oppressed at a given time in history.

Apparently now it's the air racers and, as their last act, they managed to demonstrate that the concerns of the Reno community were justified.
 
Meanwhile, there's this:

So the races are going to take place next year at an airport that doesn't exist. But the owner has been working on it for almost a year.... I wish him luck.

 
So the races are going to take place next year at an airport that doesn't exist. But the owner has been working on it for almost a year.... I wish him luck.

I see they're planning a space hotel too, with transportation costing $125,000 per passenger. Now THERE'S an activity for the rich!
 
Setting aside anybody’s personal feelings in the races, this is third mid-air during landing phase of operations in recent memory. Even if you know there’s other traffic out there, if you can’t see ‘em you can’t avoid ‘em. Doesn’t matter experience or type, that rule is inviolate.

Historically, there were 43 reported mid-airs with 79 fatalities from 2016-2021.

 
I *personally* think that football, and other things are dumb and a huge waste of time, but I would never argue that there isn't stuff that was learned because of sports medicine. Football, though, is inherently about physical skills and strategy. Air racing isn't about physical skills, it IS about mechanics, aerodynamics, efficiency at it's core. You can't win if you can't go fast, stay in the air long enough (endurance and sustained power) to win, etc. To dismiss the innovation and technology aspect is to stick your head in the sand. It's fundamentally essential to the racing.
 
It's pretty comical we are talking about "innovation" in speed to get every last MPH yet the current aviation trend is to spend 300k on a carbon cub slap 30+" tires on an already slow airplane and take it to grass strips where Cessna 150's and RV's beat you to burning less gas. :p.
 
I *personally* think that football, and other things are dumb and a huge waste of time, but I would never argue that there isn't stuff that was learned because of sports medicine.
My buddy told me I watch too much football the other day... then he went home to watch his soap opera called Yellowstone! :biggrin:

Football, airshows, air racing, Nascar, and even stupid TV shows bring in a lot of money to the organizers and the community. Nobody is putting these events on to lose money. Reno has decided the risk isn't worth the reward and this certainly isn't the only big event they have there.
 
If people want to race, what’s the problem with that? They are doing it in a controlled environment, everyone there is for that purpose and assumes the risks? Now if you want to do that over an airport with noise abatements (aka people’s homes), that’s a different story.

Pretty much everything has a risk, and people assume those when partaking.
 
I *personally* think that football, and other things are dumb and a huge waste of time, but I would never argue that there isn't stuff that was learned because of sports medicine. Football, though, is inherently about physical skills and strategy. Air racing isn't about physical skills, it IS about mechanics, aerodynamics, efficiency at it's core. You can't win if you can't go fast, stay in the air long enough (endurance and sustained power) to win, etc. To dismiss the innovation and technology aspect is to stick your head in the sand. It's fundamentally essential to the racing.
How much innovation happens in the stock T6 class, like this was? I've got no idea what the rules are; how close must they be to stock?
 
How much innovation happens in the stock T6 class, like this was? I've got no idea what the rules are; how close must they be to stock?
I don't know about the T-6s, and honestly, I doubt that they are as "useful" but you could say the same thing about High School football, College Football vs Pro. Sometimes something is just a stepping stone, say to the Unlimiteds.
 
To dismiss the innovation and technology aspect is to stick your head in the sand. It's fundamentally essential to the racing.
How much of this technology and innovation benefits any part of any industry outside of air racing? To follow your football example, it's fairly easy to find an example of 'technology transfer' from sports medicine by looking at orthopedics. What's an example of technology in today's GA, commercial, or military airplane that can be traced directly to contemporary air racing?

Nauga,
and his self-licking ice cream cone
 
How much of this technology and innovation benefits any part of any industry outside of air racing? To follow your football example, it's fairly easy to find an example of 'technology transfer' from sports medicine by looking at orthopedics. What's an example of technology in today's GA, commercial, or military airplane that can be traced directly to contemporary air racing?

Nauga,
and his self-licking ice cream cone
Well, I posted the Lancair link. Keep in mind that there's always been a bit of trade secrecy involved in innovation. You don't just tell your competitors everything right up front. I mean... that's common sense, which I'm beginning to remember is scarce in aviation message board circles. Also, you asked for "traced directly to contemporary" - well, I guess we'd have to go talk to some people racing in the 1990-2010 era most likely to see what all that might be. Anything being used right now is probably not showing up in mass-produced stuff until it's more mature.
 
Well, I posted the Lancair link. Keep in mind that there's always been a bit of trade secrecy involved in innovation. You don't just tell your competitors everything right up front. I mean... that's common sense, which I'm beginning to remember is scarce in aviation message board circles.
I'm not sure what posting a link to the Lancair website has to do with anything. The Glasair, SX, and Venture all predate the legacy and perform as good or better. The air races just aren't a big enough event to realize any major breakthroughs. Most of what you see on the race planes came from the GA industry, NASA, or other forms of motorsports. They don't have the backing for big corporations like Ferrari, Ford, GM, Toyota, McLaren.. It's still a valid and entertaining sport that I hope continues on.
 
I'm not sure what posting a link to the Lancair website has to do with anything. The Glasair, SX, and Venture all predate the legacy and perform as good or better. The air races just aren't a big enough event to realize any major breakthroughs. Most of what you see on the race planes came from the GA industry, NASA, or other forms of motorsports. They don't have the backing for big corporations like Ferrari, Ford, GM, Toyota, McLaren.. It's still a valid and entertaining sport that I hope continues on.
The owner is a warbirds guy (rebuilt some Wildcats) and raced one of the Lancairs at Reno. Lancairs and Glassairs are some of the most common aircraft being used in the Sport class with a few RVs, Thunder Mustangs, and Rockets also in the races.

https://galenaforest.net/2023/2023.Sport.Aircraft.pdf

Maybe the innovations are small currently, but they add up.
 
I *personally* think that football, and other things are dumb and a huge waste of time, but I would never argue that there isn't stuff that was learned because of sports medicine.


Medical advancement is hardly a justification for football. It’s an incidental byproduct, not the reason the game is played.

Why can’t you just accept racing for its own sake? Why must there be resultant technology to somehow justify it? If that’s the only reason to race, racing is doomed, because it’s at best a minor byproduct.
 
The owner is a warbirds guy (rebuilt some Wildcats) and raced one of the Lancairs at Reno. Lancairs and Glassairs are some of the most common aircraft being used in the Sport class with a few RVs, Thunder Mustangs, and Rockets also in the races.

https://galenaforest.net/2023/2023.Sport.Aircraft.pdf

Maybe the innovations are small currently, but they add up.
That's because those are the most abundant examples. A Questair Venture has won in the past as well as one off racers. They were GA designs that are being used in competition, not competition airplanes put into GA use. The only one to try that was Nemesis NXT and well it's painfully obvious the opposite translation doesn't work out.
 
I'd be very surprised if the races don't bring a great deal more money into the area than is spent on 'public resources' to support the races.
Maybe they do (discounting the dead people,of course), but that still gives the public an interest. And Reno has already said they're not worth it and it's not interested anymore.
 
... And Reno has already said they're not worth it and it's not interested anymore.
True. The decision that this year's races would be the last at Reno was apparently made in March.

 
What is up with some people around here lately? Forgotten their passion for aviation? Beaten down by the Karenocracy? Jealous that some can do things they can’t, or won’t?

Racing is hardwired into humans. Running, driving, flying, riding, whatever, it’s in normal, healthy people’s nature (especially males) to compete, push boundaries and see who’s the fastest and strongest. Don’t stifle it - embrace it and grow it. We aren’t living in air-conditioned homes with instant worldwide communication to the entirety of human knowledge, driving family cars that outperform the exotics of our youth, doing the broad array of flying that we do, living healthier, higher-performing lives because people held back because it might be too risky. Do some living!
 
I'm not hostile at all. I WANT these guys to race, and I hope they find another venue. But I can enjoy racing for the sport of it without some hokey argument about how much "innovation" it brings. Whatever innovation there is exists for the purpose of making an airplane go very very fast for a very short period of time, which has little to do with aviation in general.

Do we argue that people should climb Everest and K2 in order to develop innovative rope technology?
This is the wrong forum for that.
 
Do we argue that people should climb Everest and K2 in order to develop innovative rope technology?
Well, if climbers hadn't been pushing the limit of what's possible for so many years, there wouldn't have been much of a need to develop the nylon kernmantle rope, in all of its' specialized permutations. We'd still be climbing with manila or hemp ropes. Which suck for that application.
 
Well, if climbers hadn't been pushing the limit of what's possible for so many years, there wouldn't have been much of a need to develop the nylon kernmantle rope, in all of its' specialized permutations. We'd still be climbing with manila or hemp ropes. Which suck for that application.


Yes, but that’s not why people climb mountains. Technology may result from high risk sports, but that’s not the justification for them.
 
Well, if climbers hadn't been pushing the limit of what's possible for so many years, there wouldn't have been much of a need to develop the nylon kernmantle rope, in all of its' specialized permutations. We'd still be climbing with manila or hemp ropes. Which suck for that application.
A lot of modern mainstream camping gear was originally developed for mountaineering.
Yes, but that’s not why people climb mountains. Technology may result from high risk sports, but that’s not the justification for them.
Right. Just like football, or NASCAR, people raced at Reno because they wanted to, and either they were rich enough to afford it or enough people (spectators and sponsors) were willing to pay to watch them do it. That's enough justification.

Just like the only real reason most of us fly, however we may try to justify it, is simply because we want to.
 
Re; Technology advancement - I was hoping to see mention of some new drag reduction technique or advanced fuel controllers or even cockpit physiology stuff applicable outside of air racing given as examples, but so far...zilch. I get it, racing is entertainment for some, and that's enough if done properly; but let's not make it something it's not in an attempt to justify it.

Nauga,
who doesn't care what you watch
 
… advanced fuel controllers …
Nauga,
who doesn't care what you watch
The glasair guy was tuning dual turbos in flight and making each pass faster and faster.

The STOL guys running turbo’d snowmobile motors with NO2 were a hoot to watch accelerate and then get down and stop. Most of those guys were running adjustable timing systems.

That was the extent I could see.
 
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