eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
Go back and read the comments and my reply, it should be pretty self explanatory.
Reno midair
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Go back and read the comments and my reply, it should be pretty self explanatory.
Lindberg
Final Approach
I said they owe an explanation if they want to engage in an unreasonably dangerous activity on front of crowds. You asked if I meant the friends that buy tickets. I said yes, and asked what your point was. It's not self explanatory because there's plenty of stuff we don't allow people to sell tickets to. Do you think the situation is different if people buy tickets and go voluntary?
eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
I think they don’t owe someone sitting on their couch posting on POA an explanation of why they do anything.
Nothing against “rich” people, not sure how you came to that from reading my post. I just find it amusing people claim the racing is for innovation, as it we’re going to learn anything from racing 80 year old planes in a oval.
The races are done as a sport/competition for rich people. The racing association doesn’t host the race for fun. It brings in money and that’s pretty much the root of everyone’s decisions.
I do have a problem with the people on the ground who can be killed instantly from crashes like this. Not talking solely about spectators, but the people who live hundreds of yards away minding their own business in their homes. It shouldn’t be happening anywhere near people’s homes.
Lindberg
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As said, they want to use public resources and do it in front of crowds. And people are regularly killed. So yeah they should explain why they sound be allowed to keep it up.
eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
What “public resources”? I honestly am not sure what this refers to.
eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
it was pretty easy. you said it, that's how I got it. kind of like how you got the idea that it's for innovation...because someone said that.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Once was enough for me at Reno. Cars? I’ll be at F-1 in Austin for race day. But that’s state of the art, not old iron.
Half Fast
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Show me where I ever said I want to get rid of anything.
I raced cars myself. I love racing. I merely said innovation isn’t a justification for it. Frankly, I don’t think it needs justification. Some things we do merely because we want to, and that’s enough.
Grum.Man
En-Route
This is the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time. Since when does a sport need to justify it's self!?!? There were as many people or more killed in Auto racing over the years as air racing.
That said, the announcers kept trying to peddle it as trickle down innovation which is a load of BS these days. It's a HP war in most classes and most other speed secrets are impractical or have been a known entity since the dawn of computers.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
Don't hate on what you don't understand. How many iterations of the lightbulb didn't work before one did? Tinkering isn't always successful, but when it is, it can be revolutionary.
The racing always looked terrifying to me, but maybe it's not as sketchy as it looks. I've never been, but always wanted to, mainly just to see and hear the radical machines being pushed to the limit. I don't really grieve the loss of the racing itself, but I do think we lose something when aircraft like Dreadnaught or Rare Bear no longer exist/fly. Some of the most beautiful aircraft to ever be built have come out of Reno. I also feel for the sport class guys; that feels like the every man's accessible side of the sport. For those reasons I hope they find a new venue and continue the event, although I also feel like the likelihood of that took a huge hit yesterday.
Half Fast
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RyanShort1
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And you know this how? How many races does Formula 1 run per year? 23? So they get 23 changes to make changes, tweak, and actually race every year to develop and test their innovation efforts. It would literally take 23 years to do an equivalent number of Reno races. That's not a fair comparison. I know one of the Sport class competitors who was flying a Lancair and won some of his heats and it's disappointing to see other pilots poo-pooing the guys who are actually trying to innovate.
The Reno air races have more in common with the SCCA Runoffs than with Formula 1.
Lindberg
Final Approach
In the past 15 years, has car racing killed more spectators than drivers? Does it kill as many people per mile/race/whatever metric?
What about bull fighting (or cock fighting)? Boxing death matches? Televised Russian Roulette? The fact that people voluntary engage in, or spectate, an activity isn't an argument against regulating or banning it.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Airports, airspace, town infrastructure, etc.
eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
I could be wrong, but airports are where airplanes fly in and out of, no? and airspace is meant for airplanes to fly in, no? I'm guessing here but I'm assuming no one's arm had to be pulled to host the races.
SkyChaser
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SkyChaser
As far as spectator deaths go, according to a google search, 10 spectators have died at Reno since its inception. Considering that it's been almost 60 years, I fail to see it as a humongous death toll...and all those spectators bought tickets, knowing about the potential danger.
If the problem is a public airport being used, I don't have an argument because I don't see the problem. It's a public airport? If you're talking local emergency services, where's the line? Should Joe Schmoe be covered when he blows up tannerite for his neighbor's baby shower? Both are intentional engagement in extremely risky activities with spectators.
If the problem is a public airport being used, I don't have an argument because I don't see the problem. It's a public airport? If you're talking local emergency services, where's the line? Should Joe Schmoe be covered when he blows up tannerite for his neighbor's baby shower? Both are intentional engagement in extremely risky activities with spectators.
Stewartb
Final Approach
I took my daughter to Reno up when she was young. Once was enough. It’s on par with Nascar. Guys going fast making left turns. I’m more a fan of F-1, and can’t wait for race Sunday in Austin. Talk about pushing the technology!
Half Fast
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I think the comparison is apt.
Competitors at both the Runoffs and Reno are, for the most part, privateer hobbyists. F1 competitors are full-time professionals making their livelihoods from racing. Competitors at both the Runoffs and Reno are often racing old iron, trying to eke a little more speed from a design that's decades old. F1 is right at the bleeding leading edge.
I'm glad the Lancair guy is trying to be creative, but the aviation technology frontier is way ahead of him. How likely is it that whatever he comes up with will find its way into a modern jet?
Lowflynjack
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Jack Fleetwood
Six Cat descended into 14 on the downwind to base turn, so nothing to do with the race. 14's tail and left ailerron were completely ripped off. A photographer friend of mine sent me a photo of it diving into the ground. Like with the B17 crash, it's hard to envision these tough old warbirds being torn in half.
Lindberg
Final Approach
I forgot the whole thing about people being permitted to do whatever they want with airplanes at airports and no one being allowed to have an opinion about it or think it should be regulated. I guess that probably rules out about 90% of the conversations on this website, eh?
On the contrary, since the airport/city decided it never wants to do them again, it appears that no amount of arm pulling was enough.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
Is jet innovation inherently more valuable than something that might go in a new Cirrus? Seems like a really elitist perspective. I'm happy for innovations that might improve reliability, efficiency, and performance of our little bug smashers. If aviation wasn't valuable for saving time, why do so many executives have private planes?
DesertNomad
Pattern Altitude
I live in Reno and soloed at Stead airport. The people who live there moved into their homes knowing that the races have been taking place every September since the 1960s. I have friends who moved there because of the races.
Grum.Man
En-Route
Absolutely it has! In fact a quick google search tallied up more spectator deaths since 2019 than all of air racing combined. That's not even counting the drivers/riders that have perished. The majority of the spectator deaths at Reno were a result of one incident.
DesertNomad
Pattern Altitude
I was working on the Sport Class Ramp this week as a volunteer. I hope they are able to continue as they have an event coming up next month in a new location as part of finding a new home.
Grum.Man
En-Route
I think you illustrated the issue. Nothing these guys are doing is in pursuit of improved reliability or efficiency. The performance gains aren't really applicable to GA. GA also isn't focused on any of those metrics these days, it's all about safety, comfort, and cost.
Palmpilot
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The number of warbirds is being reduced by the destruction of some of them through accidents. However, one thing I am wondering about is how the accident record of the Reno Air Races compares to that of air shows in general.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
I think you're wrong.
Reliability is part of making a race engine survive. Durablity, too. The problem with the one major accident that hit the stands was because a piece of the trim tab wasn't sufficiently strong.
Efficiency is definitely part of the game as well, and that trickles down for sure.
Lancair Aircraft - Lancair International, LLC
An American Aircraft Company, located in Uvalde, Texas.
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I for one don't understand why some of y'all are so hostile towards these guys!
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
I would be interested in a comparison of accident and fatality rates between those types of racing and air races. Does anyone have that data?
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brcase
En-Route
Except it isn't really true. Sure there are quite a few "rich" Guys doing this, but you also have as many, maybe more, Formula 1 and bi-plane races that It would not surprise me to see a few pit crew vehicles that are 20+ years old. I know several pilots that participated in the formula one races on fairly modest budgets. The "rich" guys do probably help support the venue for the rest of the racers to participate in.
I love it when the airport has a public meeting and neighbors show up in their new F-250's and complain about us Rich Pilots, Never mind that I am flying a 40 year home built aircraft that I paid less than $12,000 for, and am driving a 25 year old jeep. I also fly over their house and see the RV's and ATV/UTV's they have parked a their houses.
Brian
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Grum.Man
En-Route
We are talking engines pushing 3 times their rated HP. I don't think Lycoming or Continental are going to make any design changes because one of their IO540/550's pushing 800 plus HP for 6 minutes had a come apart. There isn't a fuel limitation so I don't buy the efficiency part. I talked with Andrew once at Oshkosh and even he said 95% of being competitive was squeezing the most out of the engine without a catastrophe. Last year the top two guys lost because their engines failed not because they didn't have the cleanest airframe.I think you're wrong.
Reliability is part of making a race engine survive. Durablity, too. The problem with the one major accident that hit the stands was because a piece of the trim tab wasn't sufficiently strong.
Efficiency is definitely part of the game as well, and that trickles down for sure.
Lancair Aircraft - Lancair International, LLC
An American Aircraft Company, located in Uvalde, Texas.
I for one don't understand why some of y'all are so hostile towards these guys!
I don't think anyone is being hostile. Racing doesn't have to be justified to exist. Nascar isn't exactly breaking new ground yet is one of the most popular forms of racing there is.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
Isn't there a lot more auto racing than air racing? The data need to be expressed as a percentage of participation in each activity in order to provide a meaningful comparison.
donjohnston
Pattern Altitude
My apologies. I got confused in the thread and I though you were the one who said: "Am I the only one glad to see these races come to an end?"
Grum.Man
En-Route
Yes there is and no it doesn't. The comment was expressed that this one race is somehow so deadly that it should be canceled. There have been 155 fatalities at the isle of man race alone. You could even say that EAA Airventure is a more deadly event than Reno! There were at least 4 people killed at Airventure this year so I guess it should be shut down because it's twice as deadly.
schmookeeg
En-Route
Welcome to the board I guess.
Palmpilot
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I don't understand. How do you determine whether the higher number of accidents is due to inherent risk of the activity vs. more participation in the activity?
Lindberg
Final Approach
Please show your data. According to this article, more than 520 people have died in car racing in the past 25 years, fewer than 50 of them spectators. And yet, there were and are constantly discussions about safety and improvements. I'm the past 15 years, Reno has killed way more spectators than pilots. But, "They don't owe you an explanation."
Grum.Man
En-Route
So you confirmed I was right and want more proof?Please show your data. According to this article, more than 520 people have died in car racing in the past 25 years, fewer than 50 of them spectators. And yet, there were and are constantly discussions about safety and improvements. I'm the past 15 years, Reno has killed way more spectators than pilots. But, "They don't owe you an explanation."
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm not hostile at all. I WANT these guys to race, and I hope they find another venue. But I can enjoy racing for the sport of it without some hokey argument about how much "innovation" it brings. Whatever innovation there is exists for the purpose of making an airplane go very very fast for a very short period of time, which has little to do with aviation in general.
Do we argue that people should climb Everest and K2 in order to develop innovative rope technology?
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