Reno midair

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There is an ancient Chinese (I think) saying “The empty gourd sounds like loudest. “

The thing that bothers me most about “Viper” is I feel he’s trying to blind us with his brilliance by baffling us with (maybe) BS.

Finally, you can’t prove anything by vigorous assertion.

I only fly Cuisinarts pulling Moloktov cocktails. Aka single reciprocating engine light planes, and am no expert in any aspect of aviation.
 
The thing that bothers me most about “Viper” is I feel he’s trying to blind us with his brilliance by baffling us with (maybe) BS.
No brilliance has been forthcoming. There have been a bunch of posts detailing endless unverifiable qualifications, real or imagined, for why we should accept his enlightened word on Reno, and all other things aeronautical. But never any enlightened word. No knowledge has been shared, the posts are devoid of actual content.
 
No brilliance has been forthcoming. There have been a bunch of posts detailing endless unverifiable qualifications, real or imagined, for why we should accept his enlightened word on Reno, and all other things aeronautical. But never any enlightened word. No knowledge has been shared, the posts are devoid of actual content.
Agreed. I was trying to be charitable As Bill Shakespeare said “Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. “
 
No brilliance has been forthcoming. There have been a bunch of posts detailing endless unverifiable qualifications, real or imagined, for why we should accept his enlightened word on Reno, and all other things aeronautical. But never any enlightened word. No knowledge has been shared, the posts are devoid of actual content.
Well I was told speculation isn’t encouraged here. I was holding my tongue from speaking up about it. Perhaps I have some more details than the average Joe does.

I was also a major player in aircraft accident investigations during my time in the Air Force. The safety programs I implemented following crash investigations are still in use today. So those are some credentials for you.

I have degrees in aeronautical engineering and mathematics from the Academy.

Viper
 
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Out of curiosity, I ran my usual type of accident analysis against the T-6/SNJ airframe. Time period covered was 2008 through 2022. Fifty-eight total T-6 accidents in that period. Kind of surprised me, that's almost four per year. I see ~625 registered as of the first of this year. At this rate, we have 150 years left....

As one might expect, the pilots in the accidents are very experienced. Median total flight time is 3,000 hours with 260 hours in type. In comparison, pilots in homebuilt accidents have a median of about 1000 hours total time, and Cessna 172 pilots are down to 243 hours.

Only one midair; T-6 and a helicopter.

Rate of engine issues is almost identical to that of the Cessna 172. Kinda surprised me, however, we ARE talking only a 58-aircraft set. However, the rate of other mechanical issues are higher with the T-6/SNJ. Four out of the 58 were tailwheel/tailwheel-rigging issues.

About 50% of the T-6/SNJ accidents were due to what I call Pilot Miscontrol (e.g., stick-and-rudder errors by the pilot). This compares to about 62% for the Cessna 172 set, and about 40% for homebuilts. However, note that the pilots in these two sets are much less experienced. Over half the T-6/SNJ pilots had Commerical or ATP tickets, vs. about 13% of the Cessna 172 pilots.

The biggest single factor I saw was a loss of directional control on landing. 14% of the Cessna 172 accidents, vs. about 40% of the T-6/SNJ set. Yes, the North American *is* a taildragger. but the typical pilot involved in the accident has ten times the experience of the Cessna 172 one.

Not applicable to the Reno accident, of course, but I got curious and thought folks would like to see the result.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Out of curiosity, I ran my usual type of accident analysis against the T-6/SNJ airframe. Time period covered was 2008 through 2022. Fifty-eight total T-6 accidents in that period. Kind of surprised me, that's almost four per year. I see ~625 registered as of the first of this year. At this rate, we have 150 years left....

As one might expect, the pilots in the accidents are very experienced. Median total flight time is 3,000 hours with 260 hours in type. In comparison, pilots in homebuilt accidents have a median of about 1000 hours total time, and Cessna 172 pilots are down to 243 hours.

Only one midair; T-6 and a helicopter.

Rate of engine issues is almost identical to that of the Cessna 172. Kinda surprised me, however, we ARE talking only a 58-aircraft set. However, the rate of other mechanical issues are higher with the T-6/SNJ. Four out of the 58 were tailwheel/tailwheel-rigging issues.

About 50% of the T-6/SNJ accidents were due to what I call Pilot Miscontrol (e.g., stick-and-rudder errors by the pilot). This compares to about 62% for the Cessna 172 set, and about 40% for homebuilts. However, note that the pilots in these two sets are much less experienced. Over half the T-6/SNJ pilots had Commerical or ATP tickets, vs. about 13% of the Cessna 172 pilots.

The biggest single factor I saw was a loss of directional control on landing. 14% of the Cessna 172 accidents, vs. about 40% of the T-6/SNJ set. Yes, the North American *is* a taildragger. but the typical pilot involved in the accident has ten times the experience of the Cessna 172 one.

Not applicable to the Reno accident, of course, but I got curious and thought folks would like to see the result.

Ron Wanttaja
Sobering, as I'm close to the median (2200 TT with 285 in type) but thank you for pulling that data together Ron.

Surprised to see the median experience in type 260 hours. I would have thought most accidents would be lower time pilots. At the same time, I guess it makes sense - I've often said the T6 is the easiest airplane to fly, until it isn't. I occasionally have to ask myself if I am too comfortable in the airplane.
 
The biggest single factor I saw was a loss of directional control on landing. 14% of the Cessna 172 accidents, vs. about 40% of the T-6/SNJ set. Yes, the North American *is* a taildragger. but the typical pilot involved in the accident has ten times the experience of the Cessna 172 one.
If you did a similar analysis with a “normal” GA taildragger (whatever that may be), I’d bet the loss of control on landing numbers would be less skewed.
 
If you did a similar analysis with a “normal” GA taildragger (whatever that may be), I’d bet the loss of control on landing numbers would be less skewed.
Don't have one for "normal" (cough) taildraggers, but the gear type is listed in my homebuilt accident database.

The trigear homebuilts have a ~14% rate for landing directional control accidents, the taildragger homebuilts see a bit more twice that, at about 30%. Still less than the 40% for the T-6/SNJ set.

Remember, though, the difference in pilot experience. Pilots of the homebuilt taildraggers in accidents have a median flight hours of about 1120, the typical T-6/SNJ pilot has about 3x the hours.

Ron Wanttaja
 
lulz, well we got trolled good on that one. He should have kept it going a little longer than 7 posts.


Wonder if it’s the same dude/chick?
 
Well I was told speculation isn’t encouraged here.
People complain about it, but my observation is that there is in fact LOTS of speculation on PoA. Personally, I don't mind it as long as we're all clear that that's all it is.
 
Out of curiosity, I ran my usual type of accident analysis against the T-6/SNJ airframe. Time period covered was 2008 through 2022. Fifty-eight total T-6 accidents in that period. Kind of surprised me, that's almost four per year. I see ~625 registered as of the first of this year. At this rate, we have 150 years left....

As one might expect, the pilots in the accidents are very experienced. Median total flight time is 3,000 hours with 260 hours in type. In comparison, pilots in homebuilt accidents have a median of about 1000 hours total time, and Cessna 172 pilots are down to 243 hours.

Only one midair; T-6 and a helicopter.

Rate of engine issues is almost identical to that of the Cessna 172. Kinda surprised me, however, we ARE talking only a 58-aircraft set. However, the rate of other mechanical issues are higher with the T-6/SNJ. Four out of the 58 were tailwheel/tailwheel-rigging issues.

About 50% of the T-6/SNJ accidents were due to what I call Pilot Miscontrol (e.g., stick-and-rudder errors by the pilot). This compares to about 62% for the Cessna 172 set, and about 40% for homebuilts. However, note that the pilots in these two sets are much less experienced. Over half the T-6/SNJ pilots had Commerical or ATP tickets, vs. about 13% of the Cessna 172 pilots.

The biggest single factor I saw was a loss of directional control on landing. 14% of the Cessna 172 accidents, vs. about 40% of the T-6/SNJ set. Yes, the North American *is* a taildragger. but the typical pilot involved in the accident has ten times the experience of the Cessna 172 one.

Not applicable to the Reno accident, of course, but I got curious and thought folks would like to see the result.

Ron Wanttaja
Great stuff.

And not one word about how awesomely experienced you are (which I'm sure you are, compared to me).
 
Well I was told speculation isn’t encouraged here. I was holding my tongue from speaking up about it. Perhaps I have some more details than the average Joe does.

I was also a major player in aircraft accident investigations during my time in the Air Force. The safety programs I implemented following crash investigations are still in use today. So those are some credentials for you.

I have degrees in aeronautical engineering and mathematics from the Academy.

Viper

Hey everyone, Vipers here! (In my best Goose voice.)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
So there I was…

Student wanted to do a cross country with me, check the board me says. “There’s a airshow in Hickory NC…” uh, no.

I was standing at the duty desk, Hung says he went there last year, got a ride in a P-51. “Badgley, start flight planning to Hickory!” Me says…

Coupla days later, “Skyhawk 12, airport 2 o’clock, 10 miles, report in sight”. We got it.

“Cleared for a visual, runway whatever, switch tower 123.45”. Uh, need a Uniform freq. “they ain’t got one”

Badgley, did you check if they had uniform freqs????!!!!! Uh, nope. YIKES.

Center says they’ll give ‘em a heads up, look for lights, good luck!

DAY UM! This sucks. Zoooom, a AD-5 Skyraider flies under us… guess there’s planes in the pattern. DAY UM!!!!

No clue where the tower is. Quick rethink, no thit-hotting the pattern, just straight in and beg forgiveness I guess…

She’s up front, goons up the straight in, I grab the controls figuring it’s best if I blow tires rather than her… NO WAY I’m going around, I see a clear runway and have no idea where slower planes in s real pattern might be… this sucks!

May be a short runway, 6k feet, but at least down sloped, and we’re high, fast and overshooting… why not, everything else went to crap. SMASH down, jump on the binders, get fox hole religion and start prayin! PRAYIN HARD!!!

End of the runway comin fast… oh gawd, oh gawd, oh gawd… disappears under the nose. That loooong nose strut does a final compress, bounces up and down… call for head knockers and canopy… I lean over the side. HA! Five feet to spare. No sweat. Quick mental breakdown, recover. Notice an Apache on the taxiway to our right.

Hmmm… wonder if we cut him off? He’s waving in a friendly manner… no wait… he’s got uniform and victor radios. He heard the whole thing. He’s waving for us to follow him! YAY! What a guy! Our hero!!

Badgley, follow him! We’re saved! Woo hoo! She turns right, he’s right ahead of us… and then he lifts off and flies away. Hmmm… or he could have just been waving. Got NO CLUE where to park!!

Too late to say long story short?

Well, found a group of .mil jets as we were scooting across an intersecting runway and quick headed that way. THEN a follow me golf cart appears… NOW? Where were ya when I needed ya during my mental breakdown? Prolly got some words for me from the tower.

Turns out he didn’t. All was well and we had a GREAT time. No P-51 ride, but did get a TBM and Stearman ride… so that’s cool.

So ya, no. Uncontrolled fields (although it had a tower… I just couldn’t talk to them) were NOT COMMON for us! This event scarred me!!

Back to your regularly scheduled thread…
 
I am more disappointed than angry when I see all the personal attacks on me and my character. Like I told one of the other bozo's who called me a name, I told him to grow up and act like a man. As far as my callsign and AF service, just back off. I have served and there is a lot of honor running through my veins. This whole discussion turned to my background after I made the comment that Reno races are a sport for the rich. That's my opinion, nothing more.

And VIPER came about during 1991 over Kuwait and Iraq. I flew the F-16. For those of you who know, you know what I am talking about. For guys in my social circle and squadron, VIPER is just what they know. Same thing at the Academy.

Now if you need some education on aerodynamics and what I think of this crash (and how to prevent it happening in the future), I will be glad to give you all a lesson. I have flown thousands of hours in attack aircraft. Went through test pilot school and was an IP for the next gen of our nation's fighter pilots. I am proud of what I have done. Even got my PhD along the way.

I don't expect many of you to have the same level of experience and knowledge that I have. This isn't something you learn overnight. Takes a long time to get to what many would call the apex, and then you just have to keep climbing anyway.

-Viper out...

You left out your Space Shuttle experience. :rolleyes:
 
I sat in the cockpit of the NASA STA (Shuttle Training Aircraft) that is now in the Texas Air & Space Museum in Amarillo. So, I'd prefer if you'd address me by my callsign... Buzz.
that’s cute. I’ve let spectators sit in the F-16 that I’ve flown during air shows. Talked to tons of fans and explained how we fly these jets.

They enjoyed it immensely, but they still don’t get to be called Viper. Getting to that point takes years of training.
 
that’s cute. I’ve let spectators sit in the F-16 that I’ve flown during air shows. Talked to tons of fans and explained how we fly these jets.

They enjoyed it immensely, but they still don’t get to be called Viper. Getting to that point takes years of training.

My callsign was Maverick.
 
that’s cute. I’ve let spectators sit in the F-16 that I’ve flown during air shows. Talked to tons of fans and explained how we fly these jets.

They enjoyed it immensely, but they still don’t get to be called Viper. Getting to that point takes years of training.
80ie6f.jpg
 
I guess I'm late to this thread, but....


Henning? Is that you?
Joined POA too late to hear about Henning’s attributes and exploits. A pity I missed it.

Now Whitney on the other hand—what a gal! Accomplished aviatrix, big business owner, and all-around charmer. Nothing bland or boring about her. I could see myself flying with her in that Cessna 180 under that bright canopy of midnight stars on a long Canadian night. Settling down afterwards in front of a roaring fireplace, all that any man could ask for.

Then WHAM! went the ejection seat just like an F-35 and PoA’s sweetheart vanished into the fogbanks of memory. The cartel had carried out a dastardly hit on her. She knew too much.

Gone but not forgotten: Whitney we will always remember you…

She was endlessly creative and genuinely entertaining. No one thought to attack her credibility until that dastardly cartel began torturing her to make some unfortunate and outlandish statements. Oh, the humanity! And the dreaded handle was pulled.

Viper, I knew Whitney. And you’re no Whitney.
 
Forget Henning. Viper is a cross between John Wayne Jones and Douglas Bader. Anyone remember those dudes?
 
Well, helping this thread slide even father sideways... I hear it in the voice of Barney Stinson, as a Figh, er "International Businessman":

 
I am upset I missed this….still trying to remember when fighting falcon pilots became viper pilots in the -16….maybe Viper/Benito can give me an answer…I assume it was after the lawn dart phase…
 
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." - Queen Gertrude, in Hamlet
 
Couple of things: there is no need for name calling. We’re adults here, not children. I assume most of you are pilots like me, so I think we can try to act slightly more mature than the masses.

Next, I’d prefer you call me Viper. That’s my call sign. Been used forever and btw, my picture is on a wall or two at one of the Academies.

My experience in advanced fighter aircraft is what allows me to comment on this crash. I understand aerodynamics and physics immensely from the ground up and how they affect every single thing in an aircraft. Does it sound like I’m some moron with these credentials to you? Didn’t think so.

Again, let’s do better than name calling. You’re an adult, act like it. I’ll gladly stick around to talk shop and whatever else is a hot topic of the day. When a topic comes up that I feel the need to comment on, I’m not shy at all. Been in combat so this is nothing for me folks. Let’s be civil…

Viper
That’s not how callsigns work. Viper is what your mil people call you. It don’t mean **** outside that world. And you don’t get to choose your callsign. It’s given…

I was not in your little community of telephone pole drivers. It’s not appropriate for me to call you by your callsign. I didn’t earn the right and you demanding that we call you by your mil callsign is pompous and disrespectful to the people that gave it to you.

oh and I don’t give a **** where your picture is hanging up. I’ve had general staff officers with combat kills in pointy airplanes pull gear for me and they never behaved as self righteous and unprofessional as you in this thread.
 
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Glad to have you in the group Wiper.

So let it be written…

Tools, who did plenty to unearn Tools, somehow it always managed to fight another day, ha!

Ok fine, since you insist…. My fleet squadron couldn’t come to a consensus on Chunks, Spew, Goldy and Fish (ya, that’s a story for another thread, but, uh… never mind). There were others.
 
That’s not how callsigns work. Viper is what your mil people call you. It don’t mean **** outside that world. And you don’t get to choose your callsign. It’s given…

I was not in your little community of telephone pole drivers. It’s not appropriate for me to call you by your callsign. I didn’t earn the right and you demanding that we call you by your mil callsign is pompous and disrespectful to the people that gave it to you.

oh and I don’t give a **** where your picture is hanging up. I’ve had general staff officers with combat kills in pointy airplanes pull gear for me and they never behaved as self righteous and unprofessional as you in this thread.
The last thing I need in life is a lesson on how the things work from you, buddy. I know how callsigns work, and you know what, not once did I "demand" to be called Viper. I said I prefer it. If that is too much to ask for, then you need to really take a deep look at yourself. I spent over 20 years of my life dedicated to this great nation. And yes, I am called Viper by literally every person I know in the military and civilian world. I will gladly share how I became known as Viper with all of you, if you wish.

In addition to my consulting experience and PhD studies, I became an airline pilot. I always would mention to younger FO's how important my military service was and how it made me into the leader I am today. When I tell them some of the stories of what I was part of, they certainly appreciate the perspective since they never got to see some of the things I have. Now that I am retired from that world, I continue mentoring and using my knowledge to help others.

My portrait hangs at the AF Academy. Perhaps you didn't know, but I flew in Package Q over the Gulf. Think about that for a minute... I'm not one to share details about myself but if you attack my character like you did, I can bite right back.

It's not everyday a man like myself will come along, especially on a site like this. Take that opportunity to learn and grow as a leader. I can offer up plenty of wisdom, but you have to be willing to listen...

Viper
 
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It's not everyday a man like myself will come along, especially on a site like this. Take that opportunity to learn and grow as a leader. I can offer up plenty of wisdom if you are willing to listen...
@Bob Noel beat me to it, was going to post same
 
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