regional airline pay

steingar said:
I know how to fly an airplane. I'd like to see you try and make a transgenic mouse.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenic_mouse

You're Rudolf Jaenisch? Or are you just standing on the shoulders of people who actually pioneered something?

Frankly if wanted to screw around with mice and genetics I would have gone down that path, not what I wanted to do.

For someone who attempts to impress people with how smart they think they are, how did you think coming onto a aviation board and talking down to pilots was going to turn out?






What do you fly?

If you think you can go from a cirrus or 172 to a B777, well maybe you should stick to playing with your mice.


RotorAndWing said:
"Those who can do, those who can't, teach".
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That.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
I'd like to see you make a cognizant argument.....:rolleyes2:
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And we wonder why the smart people leave PoA. Little is more ironic than a bully bashing the education and choice to teach of another and not even using the correct vocabulary in the insult...

Coherent was the word you were looking for...

Remember in the good old days when we, as a nation, respected education and thought it to be something worth having as a goal...
 
rwellner98 said:
And we wonder why the smart people leave PoA. Little is more ironic than a bully bashing the education and choice to teach of another and not even using the correct vocabulary in the insult...
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This is hardly one-sided.

The ONLY reason the Professor has a bullseye on him right now (in this thread) is that he felt the need to interject his own misguided sense of superiority in a thread that was well out of his realm of expertise.

One should not enter a bar and start throwing punches without the expectation that punches might get thrown back.

Steingar will be fine. He has proven he has thick skin.
 
Steingar has a thick skin, and cannot be bullied. At least not easily. Feel free to sling barbs at me, I deserve them. But the attitude shown toward educators is reprehensible at best. It is we who prepare the next generation for what they will face. In my own case I stick to the science. The closest I EVER came to politics was when I showed that genetics plays a role in how intelligent we can be. I showed a photo of Einstein saying our genes could make us smart, and you'll never guess who's photo I used when saying they could make us a little less so. Just for the laugh, honestly. And that's the MOST political I've ever been in a classroom, period. I kinda miss that guy.

Now, it is true that pilots have to make life and death decisions on a daily basis, I will not deny that. And you might recall this whole brouhaha started when Steingar derided the beginning pay for pilots as being too stingy.

Now, our resident pro pilots should probably get past the point where they think their job is the most difficult in the world, because is just isn't. I mentioned a couple things I have done that no one reading this could even attempt, even if they knew the science behind it which they don't. And I don't do the most difficult thing in the world, or anywhere near it. Lots of people on this board do things I couldn't even comprehend, no less perform. And we haven't even gotten into the world of rocket scientists and neurosurgeons.
 
RotorAndWing said:
"Those who can do, those who can't, teach".
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Normally I greatly respect your thoughts and actually wait for you to weigh in on a topic to wade through the BS. I nearly universally agree or learn from your posts and find you to be one of the more level-headed people on this board.

However, this anti-education rant surprises and frightens me. I am not a teacher nor do I have any aspirations to become one.

Without those teachers that have trained countless engineers we would not have the aircraft you have flown and continue to fly. It is certain aviation would not have grown to what it is today.

Without those teachers that do research such as Steingar we would not have the medicines that allow us to fight cancer and elongate our lifespans such as they do.

Though I don't necessarily agree with Steingar's comments in here. I find it incredibly offensive that you in particular would make such a baseless and unnecessary comment.
 
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Mtns2Skies said:
Normally I greatly respect your thoughts and actually wait for you to weigh in on a topic to wade through the BS. I nearly universally agree or learn from your posts and find you to be one of the more level-headed people on this board.

However, this anti-education rant surprises and frightens me. I am not a teacher nor do I have any aspirations to become one.

Without those teachers that have trained countless engineers we would not have the aircraft you have flown and continue to fly. It is certain aviation would not have grown to what it is today.

Without those teachers that do research such as Steingar we would not have the medicines that allow us to fight cancer and elongate our lifespans such as they do.

Though I don't necessarily agree with Steingar's comments in here. I find it incredibly offensive that you in particular would make such a baseless and unnecessary comment.
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Don't fret, I was just handing the professor a little of his own (and well deserved).
 
The problem with regionals is that the compensation model was based on a 4 year stint, not a 14 year stint. Since 9/11 and age 65, that generation got held up. that's where the ROI disconnect came from, even after accounting for the carrot of eventual mainline employment. You just can't recover financially from a 15 year effective unskilled McDonalds tenure, even if you do end up making 200K in your 50s (which isn't medically guaranteed). Add a lack of lateral-income portability, and commuting to garden variety s$hholes like EWR and OAK, and it's just a non-starter. It just isn't a particularly wise vocational choice for those for whom income matching life timing is more important than total lifetime earnings tally at age 65. Making nothing for 20 years and playing catchup in my mid 40s to mid 60s isn't useful to me. I want to make 100K in my 30s and I'm willing to forego the potential to make 250K in my 50s in order to attain that. That's where the airline job fails to deliver, when you account for 14 year stints at regionals.

As to the education angle, I almost pursued a civilian career in academia, but decided to abandon it in grad school after I realized the paltry compensation and lackluster career progression compared to the military. Adjunct hell followed by 6 year tenure probationary periods making 45K, and way too many post docs making no money in their 30s with families in tow, Jesus, no thanks.

Mind you, my education and involvement in academia was in an engineering department, but I became interested in pro aviation depts as the thought of teaching quantitative courses (most of undergraduate engineering) wasn't really something I enjoyed and the reasons for pursuing engineering were intellectually dishonest in the first place. But, my impression of much of the staff I interacted with in collegiate aviation departments was that many were simply hiding from the airline industry after being chewed out and spit out by it, and went looking for a more steady paycheck, a much more homestead friendly schedule and a steady retirement, in exchange for a lower compensation. Nothing wrong with that. The only thing I took exception with is that I found it ironic that these departments are pushing BS professional aviation degrees and billing too much for flight training where the degree itself doesn't translate into any job, while the staff teaching these pro-pilot kool-aid courses are airline refugees themselves who ran away from the job, citing these very labor grievances of the profession in the first place! That was too intellectually dishonest for my taste. The rest of the staff were your typical retiree (some military) making a second career, for which those academic payscales actually become more reasonable and suited for said life stage in life imo.

The regionals only work for people when you only have to do that s%th for 5 years. Anyone who continues to sit in the right seat of a CRJ a day later than 4 years is a poor poker player that doesn't understand the opportunity cost behind "knowing when to fold 'em" is actually a better economic outcome. The concept of cutting one's losses is a life skill a lot of people struggle with.
 
^^^^ wow - an actual post that addresses the thread topic!

It's funny to me how any thread about professional aviation turns into a penis measuring contest in no time at all.
 
It is so horrible.

You know, when I hire entry level talent that is fresh out of college, I pay them $100,000+ on day one, before they've proven themselves. Its the right thing to do...

Better said, without sarcasm - in the real world, educational expenses don't lend themselves to immediate gratification. You have to work and earn your way up the ladder. I didn't cross 6 figures until I had about 5 years of experience in my field (some of that earned the really hard way, through my own failing business).

How many years of regional airline experience does it take to work for a real airline and cross 6 figures? I suspect it is less than 5.
 
SkyHog said:
How many years of regional airline experience does it take to work for a real airline and cross 6 figures? I suspect it is less than 5.
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It just depends on where the industry is on the cycle. Right now we're on an upswing, and a motivated, properly networked pilot can get it done in less than 5 in many cases. But if there's a downturn, it can be far, far longer. 9/11 and age 65 added a decade to everyone's timeline.

That's why many advocate corporate (or whatever) over the regionals. If there's a downswing that keeps you from a major longer than anticipated, a corporate gig can be a better place to hang out until the music starts up again. But if you're lucky and time it right, a regional can get all the right boxes checked in a shorter period of time.

Lots of ways to skin the cat, and a major isn't always the right job for a lot of people. It is for me and I love what I do, but I don't pretend to know what's best for anyone else.
 
SkyHog said:
It is so horrible.

You know, when I hire entry level talent that is fresh out of college, I pay them $100,000+ on day one, before they've proven themselves. Its the right thing to do...

Better said, without sarcasm - in the real world, educational expenses don't lend themselves to immediate gratification. You have to work and earn your way up the ladder. I didn't cross 6 figures until I had about 5 years of experience in my field (some of that earned the really hard way, through my own failing business).

How many years of regional airline experience does it take to work for a real airline and cross 6 figures? I suspect it is less than 5.
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Not likely in 5 years... Year 1 would probably be a CFI or the like just to get enough time for a regional. A couple years at least at a regional before a major. To cross the six figure boundary, depending on airlines, is at least a few years.
 
JHW said:
you seem to be making my point. The statement was that the pay is too low. Clearly it isn't.
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I'm saying there could be other attractive things that make people want to work there. The pay is only one variable.
 
steingar said:
Steingar has a thick skin, and cannot be bullied. At least not easily. Feel free to sling barbs at me, I deserve them. But the attitude shown toward educators is reprehensible at best. It is we who prepare the next generation for what they will face. In my own case I stick to the science. The closest I EVER came to politics was when I showed that genetics plays a role in how intelligent we can be. I showed a photo of Einstein saying our genes could make us smart, and you'll never guess who's photo I used when saying they could make us a little less so. Just for the laugh, honestly. And that's the MOST political I've ever been in a classroom, period. I kinda miss that guy.

Now, it is true that pilots have to make life and death decisions on a daily basis, I will not deny that. And you might recall this whole brouhaha started when Steingar derided the beginning pay for pilots as being too stingy.

Now, our resident pro pilots should probably get past the point where they think their job is the most difficult in the world, because is just isn't. I mentioned a couple things I have done that no one reading this could even attempt, even if they knew the science behind it which they don't. And I don't do the most difficult thing in the world, or anywhere near it. Lots of people on this board do things I couldn't even comprehend, no less perform. And we haven't even gotten into the world of rocket scientists and neurosurgeons.
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It's certainly not the most difficult job in the world. That said, it's a bit different than being a PP and flying for the $100 burger. Most here probably don't comprehend the level of knowledge and training we go through.
 
hindsight2020 said:
The regionals only work for people when you only have to do that s%th for 5 years. Anyone who continues to sit in the right seat of a CRJ a day later than 4 years is a poor poker player that doesn't understand the opportunity cost behind "knowing when to fold 'em" is actually a better economic outcome. The concept of cutting one's losses is a life skill a lot of people struggle with.
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The thing is, I know people who did exactly this, following the advice they got. Make Captain at a regional, get hired at a major. Then 9/11 happened and they were furloughed. Some are only now or within the past few years, getting back to what they had in 2000. So it took them 10 years.

But most people who stuck with it ended up ok. I guess.

I think the moral is that you never know what's going to happen in the future. But that would be true in any field or in life.
 
steingar said:
I mentioned a couple things I have done that no one reading this could even attempt, even if they knew the science behind it which they don't.
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Seriously? I wouldn't even pretend for a second to think anything I've accomplished in my career couldn't be accomplished by someone else reading these words on this site.

Plenty of people can do damn near anything if they dedicate themselves to it and yes that includes the things you've done.
 
jesse said:
Seriously? I wouldn't even pretend for a second to think anything I've accomplished in my career couldn't be accomplished by someone else reading these words on this site.

Plenty of people can do damn near anything if they dedicate themselves to it and yes that includes the things you've done.
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Well said.
 
jesse said:
Seriously? I wouldn't even pretend for a second to think anything I've accomplished in my career couldn't be accomplished by someone else reading these words on this site.

Plenty of people can do damn near anything if they dedicate themselves to it and yes that includes the things you've done.
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I couldn't be a democrat...
 
jesse said:
Seriously? I wouldn't even pretend for a second to think anything I've accomplished in my career couldn't be accomplished by someone else reading these words on this site.

Plenty of people can do damn near anything if they dedicate themselves to it and yes that includes the things you've done.
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When you can do surgery on a mouse under a microscope implanting embryos that are dwarfed by the head of a pin into the orifice of a largely transparent organ that itself is the size of said pin head using both hands to hold everything in place and a mouth pipette to move the embryos and keeping everything absolutely sterile, then we can talk.

To paraphrase Game of Thrones: you know nothing.

By the way, what I described is a long way from the hardest thing I've done in science. Just the easiest to describe. And I don't think I'm that great or have the hardest job by a long shot.
 
steingar said:
When you can do surgery on a mouse under a microscope implanting embryos that are dwarfed by the head of a pin into the orifice of a largely transparent organ that itself is the size of said pin head using both hands to hold everything in place and a mouth pipette to move the embryos and keeping everything absolutely sterile, then we can talk.
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Shoot, we used to do that for fun when I was a kid. And swing cats by their tails.
 
steingar said:
When you can do surgery on a mouse under a microscope implanting embryos that are dwarfed by the head of a pin into the orifice of a largely transparent organ that itself is the size of said pin head using both hands to hold everything in place and a mouth pipette to move the embryos and keeping everything absolutely sterile, then we can talk.

To paraphrase Game of Thrones: you know nothing.

By the way, what I described is a long way from the hardest thing I've done in science. Just the easiest to describe. And I don't think I'm that great or have the hardest job by a long shot.
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If I so chose to want to do such a thing, I could most certainly do it. Could I do it today? Hell no. Could I dedicate my life to it and pull it of? Most likely so.

No different than the fact that you wouldn't have a chance in hell of understanding to any slight degree what is on my other monitor right now. It would take you about a decade of dedication to be able to do what I will do today from my office chair. But, would I say you couldn't do it? No. That's just ridiculous. If you wanted to you would pull it off...it'd just take a major effort on your part.

In the private industry, those that walk around telling people that nobody could do what they do end up surprised in a hurry.
 
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"Real gangsta ass n****s don't flex nuts, 'cause real gangsta ass n****s know they got 'em."
 
Kritchlow said:
It's certainly not the most difficult job in the world. That said, it's a bit different than being a PP Most here probably don't comprehend the level of knowledge and training we go through.
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Agreed , and the self study never stops if your doing it right IMO.
 
jesse said:
In the private industry, those that walk around telling people that nobody could do what they do end up surprised in a hurry.
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that's the key point. Most people have some particular skill in which they are particularly well practiced. When I interview a candidate, I'm less interested in the details of that specific skill, and more interested in how they acquired them and how they've passed them on to others. We are not one trick ponies, we all need to do different tasks at different times and adjust to new things. I'm not hiring a person for a skill they have at this moment, I'm hiring them to be an effective part of the team, able to adapt to different needs we might have in the future and help others to do the same.
 
steingar said:
When you can do surgery on a mouse under a microscope implanting embryos that are dwarfed by the head of a pin into the orifice of a largely transparent organ that itself is the size of said pin head using both hands to hold everything in place and a mouth pipette to move the embryos and keeping everything absolutely sterile, then we can talk.

To paraphrase Game of Thrones: you know nothing.

By the way, what I described is a long way from the hardest thing I've done in science. Just the easiest to describe. And I don't think I'm that great or have the hardest job by a long shot.
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Not everyone likes playing with vermin.

Like Jesse said, probably anyone here could have chosen a diffrent path and became the mouse master you are today, thing is most people here would rather fly aircraft than cut up mice, but hey someone has to get mice pregnant, might as well be you.

You're not going likley to impress anyone here with that skill set, maybe try these guys
image.jpg

http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/
 
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James331 said:
You're not going likley to impress anyone here with that skill set, maybe try these guys
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I believe the audience here is much more sophisticated than you think.
 
James331 said:
You're not going likley to impress anyone here with that skill set, maybe try these guys
image.jpg

http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/
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Actually, most of the currently used strains of laboratory mice came from fanciers who bred them for color early in the last century. Most can be traced back to one farm in what was then rural Massachusetts.
 
Going back to regional pay, I received a post card in the mail about ExpressJet having an Open House with the sims where people can fly around. I'm sure they might lock everyone in a room, have them do three laps around the pattern, then stick a uniform on, and throw them on a schedule.

I might see if I can go if an instructor will sign my logbook.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Going back to regional pay, I received a post card in the mail about ExpressJet having an Open House with the sims where people can fly around. I'm sure they might lock everyone in a room, have them do three laps around the pattern, then stick a uniform on, and throw them on a schedule.

I might see if I can go if an instructor will sign my logbook.
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Lol!! Yes, they are hurting for pilots, and this strikes me as a thinly veiled recruitment attempt.
That said, make no bones about it. Once hired, training and standards are tough. People can, and do wash out. It's not PPL training.
 
Kritchlow said:
Lol!! Yes, they are hurting for pilots, and this strikes me as a thinly veiled recruitment attempt.
That said, make no bones about it. Once hired, training and standards are tough. People can, and do wash out. It's not PPL training.
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More and more are washing out these days, as they scrape the bottom of the barrel for talent.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
More and more are washing out these days, as they scrape the bottom of the barrel for talent.
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If you were to go to one of these, what's the best way to prepare? Fly a steam gauge flight sim on your home PC and make sure your instrument skills are sharp?
 
dans2992 said:
If you were to go to one of these, what's the best way to prepare? Fly a steam gauge flight sim on your home PC and make sure your instrument skills are sharp?
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I would go find a beat-up PC-ATD in an FBO somewhere.

PC flight sims (Like MSFS or X-Plane) are much smoother and easier to fly than the PC-ATDs. If you can do a full ILS to mins and holds in a PC-ATD, you should be able to handle anything.
 
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