regional airline pay

Some battles aren't worth the fight, the easiest way around it is to not work in the on-demand freight business.

Yup... You're right.

The old company I worked for did the same as you. It took a competitor to complain to the Feds that we had an unfair competitive advantage. Low and behold, management implemented true duty & rest rules.
 
It's not just freight - most (all?) of the smaller passenger 135 operations around here do it too. The POIs look the other way, or are content with the "Well, they don't *have* to accept the trip." explanation.

Too many bright eyed low time guys looking for their first shiny jet for anything to change, though.
 
It's not just freight - most (all?) of the smaller passenger 135 operations around here do it too. The POIs look the other way, or are content with the "Well, they don't *have* to accept the trip." explanation.

Too many bright eyed low time guys looking for their first shiny jet for anything to change, though.

You're exactly right.
 
Yeah, it was a tongue and cheek comment. My good buddy was a '99 hire. He was told it was the last job he'd ever have, he'd be a millionaire, and so on. I'm being told the same crap. People have really short memories. I hope I have a good career, but I'll let you know how it played out once I retire. ;)


Good way to look at it. I also know people who were '99 and 2000 hires. They chided me for not aiming for the airlines but it was not what I wanted to do. I've had a middling but stable career. Nothing spectacularly high-paying but no living in poverty either.
 
Good way to look at it. I also know people who were '99 and 2000 hires. They chided me for not aiming for the airlines but it was not what I wanted to do. I've had a middling but stable career. Nothing spectacularly high-paying but no living in poverty either.

I think a stable career is definitely a successful one when it comes to this industry! :)

When I met my wife, I was a light jet driver and she flew for the airlines. Years later I decided to sell my soul and go 121, and she told me this, "You need to set your expectations such that any day you're not furloughed is a blessing, and when you are working, we'll budget for the right seat in the smallest piece of equipment in the fleet. Then plan on min guarantee. Anything you do above that will be gravy."

Her advice hasn't steered me wrong yet!
 
I think a stable career is definitely a successful one when it comes to this industry! :)

When I met my wife, I was a light jet driver and she flew for the airlines. Years later I decided to sell my soul and go 121, and she told me this, "You need to set your expectations such that any day you're not furloughed is a blessing, and when you are working, we'll budget for the right seat in the smallest piece of equipment in the fleet. Then plan on min guarantee. Anything you do above that will be gravy."

Her advice hasn't steered me wrong yet!

Smart lady!

I'm only a few months into 121. But today (on a day off) I'm doing Continung Legal Education classes to keep my law license current. Backup plans are good.
 
I think a stable career is definitely a successful one when it comes to this industry! :)

When I met my wife, I was a light jet driver and she flew for the airlines. Years later I decided to sell my soul and go 121, and she told me this, "You need to set your expectations such that any day you're not furloughed is a blessing, and when you are working, we'll budget for the right seat in the smallest piece of equipment in the fleet. Then plan on min guarantee. Anything you do above that will be gravy."

Her advice hasn't steered me wrong yet!

I admire and agree with you guys' fiscal conservatism, certainly a smart play here. But, isn't the bolded about the most self-evident allocution that the career choice is a poor one in the first place? How do you reconcile that?

One of the more interesting life lessons I've gained from working with and around airline pilots, is the unapologetic recognition of the fragility of our bodies with age, and the time-compounded cost of a career with zero lateral income portability, something 90% of the population takes for granted in their working lives. At a certain age/life stage/income bracket need, taking a hit via furlough or divestment of the seniority list is an irrecoverable lifetime event. That's pretty steep for people without credible backup education or work experience. I'm not quite sure the view makes up for it.

/devils advocacy
 
I admire and agree with you guys' fiscal conservatism, certainly a smart play here. But, isn't the bolded about the most self-evident allocution that the career choice is a poor one in the first place? How do you reconcile that?

That's a very fair question. The short answer (and probably one that causes so many of the problems in the industry to begin with!) is that I love to fly. When I first started down this path I knew there was a very real possibility that the shine would wear off and it'd simply become another 'job'. Or I'd lose my medical, etc. So I have degrees in other fields and backup plans to go along with them.

But the shine never wore off, and even to this day I look forward to going into work. It's definitely an unusual lifestyle, but one I seem to continue to enjoy. My wife and I don't plan to have kids, so that makes the sacrifices easier to swallow.

I think the key for both of us is that we didn't get into this for BS reasons like shiny airliners, money, prestige (what kind of person does *any* job for that reason?), or really any reason other than making a living flying airplanes around. And as you mentioned, we're conservative enough that we don't require an equivalent income level to survive in the event of a furlough. I didn't burn any bridges when I left corporate flying, and I remain drinking buddies with all of those guys. You never know when you'll need one of those seats, and my personality is such that if I end up back in a Citation to pay the bills, that's fine. As long as I'm still flying.

We'll see how it turns out. I was raised as a computer geek by my Dad (who's been a software developer/consultant for as long as I've been alive), and to this day he thinks I'm a complete idiot for doing what I do.
 
No matter what industry you are in your job is not guaranteed, especially if you are talking about a 40 year career. Obviously your health isn't either.
 
While I started this whole career in the "I love to fly mindset" I don't have it as much today as I did back then. I still have days that flying is a blast. But a 2AM phone call to be at work at 2:30 for a trip to mexico kind of kills that "I love to fly".
 
I never had many illusions about working as a pilot but I started my flying career in the back of a mapping airplane. What I have done since then is more than I could have imagined. But then I may not have much imagination.

That said, late in my career as I am, I realize that there are quite a few other directions that I could have gone and been OK with it.
 
I don't know anyone at McDonald's who earns $15/hr, and even if they did your argument is totally invalid because federal minimum wage is $7.25 so the minimum wage wouldn't affect them at all.

That's $14,000 a year. Pre tax. With no benefits. Yeah, really a "ridiculous amount," but not in the way you're suggesting.


http://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/15/fight-for-15-mcdonalds-workers-protest-to-raise-minimum-wage.html

I'm just thinking its a matter of time.


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Not really the true effect, Ben; when the minimum wage is raised above the economic value of the work, the jobs go away. And, they are going away.



I am confident that many people who were making somewhere between the old minimum wage and the new one are very happy that, now, the job they no longer have would pay them more money, if they had the job, which they don't.



And remember, too: there's a lot more inherent upside in the career for a regional airliner pilot than there is for a low-skill job. That, in itself, is compensation, just deferred.


Sure there is a lot more potential for the regional guys, also a lot more responsibility. Nearly everyone wants to be paid more for the hard work they are doing, they certainly won't get paid more by not doing a little complaining.


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http://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/15/fight-for-15-mcdonalds-workers-protest-to-raise-minimum-wage.html

I'm just thinking its a matter of time.


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Just because some workers protested doesn't mean the rate is going to go to $15/hr. I think we're pretty far off from a $15 minimum wage. But the fact that someone can work full time and still end up below the poverty level is pretty sad. And the poverty level in this country is a pretty low bar. Most economists agree that it is grossly outdated and understated (it was created 60+ years ago based on three times the cost of the minimum diet, simply adjusted for inflation -- at the time, Americans spent about 1/3rd of their income on food; now they spend about 1/10th, because costs for shelter, health care, telecommunications, etc. have all increased dramatically...)
 
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Sure there is a lot more potential for the regional guys, also a lot more responsibility. Nearly everyone wants to be paid more for the hard work they are doing, they certainly won't get paid more by not doing a little complaining.

Quite right; and ALPA does not exist for entertainment, either!
 
Just because some workers protested doesn't mean the rate is going to go to $15/hr. I think we're pretty far off from a $15 minimum wage. But the fact that someone can work full time and still end up below the poverty level is pretty sad. And the poverty level in this country is a pretty low bar. Most economists agree that it is grossly outdated and understated (it was created 60+ years ago based on three times the cost of the minimum diet, simply adjusted for inflation -- at the time, Americans spent about 1/3rd of their income on food; now they spend about 1/10th, because costs for shelter, health care, telecommunications, etc. have all increased dramatically...)

Interesting conversation I had with a client yesterday.

His entry-level laborers (these are the guys who hire-in with no training, no direct skills, merely able-bodied and willing) are starting at $14.00/hour, plus benefits. He used to hire at $10.00-$11.00/hour, but simply could not get people who show up.

Upgrade is quick, company-provided and paid training.

There's work out there folks, for folks who want to work (and by "work," I mean actually participate in producing something with willing effort, not merely show up and clock in). Oh, and they have to be able to (1) pass a drug screen, and (2) qualify as work-eligible in the e-Verify database.

The whole minimum wage stink is a diversion - most people being paid minimum wage are earning quite a bit less.
 
While I started this whole career in the "I love to fly mindset" I don't have it as much today as I did back then. I still have days that flying is a blast. But a 2AM phone call to be at work at 2:30 for a trip to mexico kind of kills that "I love to fly".

They page you out on demand like that for cargo?



A good chunk of my flying at work involves getting toned out at 0200-0500 for a flight, I still love it, wake up walk out to the hangar and go. I'll be hating life all the way to the threshold, but once I'm wheels up I'm having fun again :D
 
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Yeah Yeah, ok. Lol. Well I didn't know New York would be getting all crazy. As a liberal, I really don't understand how democrats in NY think it's a good idea to single out one particular industry for a massive wage increase. I know recent college grads who make less than that. Now they'll say "I don't have to go to college, I can get a job at McD and make twice as much as other uneducated high school dropouts right off the bat." Plus most fast food restaurants are not owned by corporate, but are small franchise owners. Just going to lead to a lot of automation (probably a good thing as far as innovation is concerned, though) and inflated job demand to work at fast food restaurants, along with artificially low job supply in that industry. Really stupid. And, in order to attract workers, a lot of other businesses that pay less than $15 in NY may have to raise their wages significantly to attract labor (“why should I work for you making $10/hr when I can work for burger king and make $15/hr?"). Just doubling the minimum wage like that is nuts. At least it takes effect gradually, I don't think it will be fully implemented for another 5 years.
 
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They page you out on demand like that for cargo?



A good chunk of my flying at work involves getting toned out at 0200-0500 for a flight, I still love it, wake up walk out to the hangar and go. I'll be hating life all the way to the threshold, but once I'm wheels up I'm having fun again :D

When the car company see's the have 3 hours of parts left, it's an emergency to them. We move stuff for the automotive companies, we fly when they need it, that's it.
 
It's amazing they don't plan their inventory better.... I'm sure last-minute charter air-freight is not cheap....
 
It's amazing they don't plan their inventory better.... I'm sure last-minute charter air-freight is not cheap....
Perhaps someone screwed up. I remember flying about 500 pounds of labels to a bottling plant in the middle of the night because the charter cost was less than the cost of shutting down the line then starting it back up. The guy who accompanied the labels on the trip said they would only last until a larger shipment got there by airline the next day.
 
Perhaps someone screwed up. I remember flying about 500 pounds of labels to a bottling plant in the middle of the night because the charter cost was less than the cost of shutting down the line then starting it back up. The guy who accompanied the labels on the trip said they would only last until a larger shipment got there by airline the next day.

Exactly, line shutdowns are more expensive than chartering an airliner to bring the parts. Manufacturing processes get slowed down, parts are defective, people mess up. Just in time manufacturing is great when things are going well, but when they hit the fan, they turn into a mess.
 
Exactly, line shutdowns are more expensive than chartering an airliner to bring the parts. Manufacturing processes get slowed down, parts are defective, people mess up. Just in time manufacturing is great when things are going well, but when they hit the fan, they turn into a mess.


My experience has been more "mess" than smooth.

Finance always wants to minimize inventory, but that causes problems for all other parts of the organization.
 
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