Red Bull Pilots to Swap Planes in Midair

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Piperonca, Mar 16, 2022.

?

How does Red Bull stunt end?

  1. Both planes and pilots survive unscathed

    36 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. One plane or pilot impacts obstacle at speed

    22 vote(s)
    24.4%
  3. Multiple casualties and/or damage to both planes

    6 vote(s)
    6.7%
  4. Nothing happens after this

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Temporary suspension by FAA of two pilots

    2 vote(s)
    2.2%
  6. Revocation by FAA of two pilots

    19 vote(s)
    21.1%
  7. All Red Bull personnel with certificates have them revoked

    5 vote(s)
    5.6%
  8. Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. MacFlier

    MacFlier Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2018
    Messages:
    370

    Display name:
    MacFlier
    I see it as well.
     
    Darryl Snover likes this.
  2. Jeff Oslick

    Jeff Oslick En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,592
    Location:
    Fullerton, CA

    Display name:
    Jeff Oslick
    I also wonder about the consequences for whoever made the modification to the autopilots and the airframes. Even if they did reregister these planes as experimental/exhibition, are there some requirements for modifications to be signed off by and A&P or IA? The addition of the drag brake basically makes the plane unairworthy by design. Or does exhibition category let you do whatever you want to an airframe/engine/avionics?
     
  3. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    6,010

    Display name:
    Bell206
    FYI: it had a special AWC under Experimental Exhibition. Any modifications and their subsequent acceptance would have been dealt with during the AWC application period and its associated Operating Limitations sheet. Whether an APIA played any role would have been noted at the same time or listed in the Ops Limits.
     
  4. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    13,399
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    I think there’s probably a lot of folk who will get off on that they told the Man, f you, we’re doin’ it anyway.
     
  5. Katamarino

    Katamarino Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,651
    Location:
    Kent, UK

    Display name:
    Katamarino
    I'm pretty sure that Paulo Iscold knows what he's doing when it comes to doing this stuff properly.
     
  6. Racerx

    Racerx Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 15, 2020
    Messages:
    1,853

    Display name:
    Ernie
    I wonder if the pilots even knew the waiver was denied. Granted it's ultimately them holding the bag, but do airshow pilots really make sure everything is in order when they show up or just take the organizers word for it
     
  7. Lindberg

    Lindberg Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    5,112
    Location:
    North Texas

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    At least half the time.
     
  8. Jeff Oslick

    Jeff Oslick En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,592
    Location:
    Fullerton, CA

    Display name:
    Jeff Oslick
    Well, the outcome for one 182 seems to indicate that may be a presumption not in evidence yet.

    This just looks bad all around. This reads that they invested too heavily in a schedule that relied on the FAA approving on time, or be damned they were going to go ahead with it anyway, rather than try to negotiate requirements with the FAA.
     
  9. FlightmechH3

    FlightmechH3 Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2021
    Messages:
    27

    Display name:
    FlightmechH3
    When you bail out, does that count as flight time?

    And, lol
     
  10. Jeff Oslick

    Jeff Oslick En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,592
    Location:
    Fullerton, CA

    Display name:
    Jeff Oslick
    Something, something, pilot-in-command. See 91.103, Preflight Action. "All information concerning that flight."
     
  11. Jeff Oslick

    Jeff Oslick En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,592
    Location:
    Fullerton, CA

    Display name:
    Jeff Oslick
    Asking the critical POA question!
     
    FlightmechH3 likes this.
  12. strangebird

    strangebird Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    290
    Location:
    Georgia

    Display name:
    strangebird
    Two idiots, they defied the FAA order,

    Blancolirio channel Juan all over it,



    They did the stunt for $$$ anyway
     
  13. Randomskylane

    Randomskylane Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2021
    Messages:
    198

    Display name:
    Randomskylane
    With FAA denial they should have done it where (forgetting costs obviously)?

    Ocean or Gulf of Mexico is adiz iirc
    So, Cuba? Venezuela? Africa? Who else would say yes?
     
  14. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    8,986
    Location:
    Central Florida

    Display name:
    Half Fast
    My feelings are a bit mixed.

    Like @Salty , I assumed this was being done with appropriate approvals, a TFR, etc. The Red Bull folks have certainly organized enough air events to know what's required and the timelines for getting everything in order. Doing this in the face of a denial was extremely stupid and the pilots as well as the Red Bull company deserve whatever gets thrown at them.

    OTOH,...

    I'm glad Red Bull is doing stuff like this. POA members often bemoan the state of general aviation and wish there was greater interest. To most of the public, airplanes are airliners that you use for business trips or to visit grandma, and all other planes are for the military. At least Red Bull is putting fun and exciting aviation in front of the public. I'm glad to see that, even if they did perform a rectal-cranial inversion on this one.
     
  15. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    8,986
    Location:
    Central Florida

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    Ukraine.
     
    Ed Haywood likes this.
  16. Lindberg

    Lindberg Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    5,112
    Location:
    North Texas

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    I'm certain there are places they could have secured $$$ permission.
     
  17. exncsurfer

    exncsurfer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2014
    Messages:
    2,110
    Location:
    NC

    Display name:
    exncsurfer
    Dubai?
     
  18. L J Donelson

    L J Donelson Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2021
    Messages:
    161
    Location:
    KHSV

    Display name:
    L J Donelson
  19. X3 Skier

    X3 Skier En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,185
    Location:
    I19 & SBS

    Display name:
    Geezer
    The only Red Bull stuff I’m interested is their Formula One Race Team. They finished 1 2 in Sunday’s Grand Prix in Italy. Max Verstappen (Current World Champion) Won and Teammate Sergio Perez was Second. All the other Red Bull stuff is so much Horse Hockey except maybe the Helo Acro.

    Cheers
     
  20. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    15,312
    Location:
    high desert NM

    Display name:
    Billy
  21. Jeff Oslick

    Jeff Oslick En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,592
    Location:
    Fullerton, CA

    Display name:
    Jeff Oslick
    "plane was damaged".

    Interesting way of saying "destroyed to almost beyond recognition as an airplane".
     
  22. Hector Parra

    Hector Parra Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2022
    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    Montréal, Canada

    Display name:
    Hector Parra
    Wasn't there were they did that wingman stunt with an Emirates plane?
     
  23. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    6,010

    Display name:
    Bell206
    They could have done it offshore in the GOM or other similar offshore areas so long as they were 12 miles offshore or even better 24 miles out as that is considered international waters and outside any US enforcement. SpaceX drops their capsules around 30 miles out for the same reason.
    Doubtful it will cause any increased interest in GA. The Red Bull helicopters didn't increase the helicopter side so why would these guys do any different? Besides the only reason most non-aviation people watch this is to see if they wreck a plane just as they watch the other 100s of people on Tik Tok or youtube wreck brand new trucks, shoot 50 glass balls with a .50 cal., and other stupid sheet. The only greater interest people are looking for are more videos blowing stuff up vs wanting to get into GA.
     
    Randomskylane and TCABM like this.
  24. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    3,438

    Display name:
    Jack Fleetwood
    NoHeat and exncsurfer like this.
  25. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Messages:
    3,407

    Display name:
    Ari
    TCABM likes this.
  26. Kyle N

    Kyle N Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2020
    Messages:
    59

    Display name:
    Kyle
    The letter seems to be directed to the pilot himself, stating that the pilot filed the petition. I would hope he saw the denial letter, but that is a question I had as well.
     
  27. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    8,986
    Location:
    Central Florida

    Display name:
    Half Fast
    Hmmmm.......

    The letter is dated Friday, 4/22. I wonder if it went to Aikens' PO box in Shelton, WA. Is it possible he had not received the letter prior to the stunt? I doubt the FAA sent a letter to Arizona.

    Not that such would relieve him, since he obviously knew he did not yet have permission.
     
  28. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    14,293
    Location:
    Southeast Tennessee

    Display name:
    This page intentionally left blank
    No matter, a prudent person would wait to see if permission was granted before executing the stunt. Unless of course your sponsors have you by the boys.
     
  29. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    8,986
    Location:
    Central Florida

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    Exactly. It's not a "no news is good news" sort of thing. He needed a positive confirmation.

    Total cluster....
     
    TCABM likes this.
  30. texasclouds

    texasclouds Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2018
    Messages:
    2,420
    Location:
    Bryan, Texas

    Display name:
    Mark
  31. kaiser

    kaiser Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2019
    Messages:
    957
    Location:
    Chicagoland

    Display name:
    The pilot formerly known as Cool Beard Guy
    It's bad for GA. It doesn't further or advance safety.

    And now the FAA has a "trend" of pilots jumping out of planes they need to respond to. I've worked with enough regulators to know that this will hurt all of us.
     
    TCABM and Salty like this.
  32. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    10,830
    Location:
    FL

    Display name:
    Salty
    Even it if did attract people to GA, exactly what kind of people is it attracting?
     
    Brad Smith, X3 Skier and Albany Tom like this.
  33. Arm3

    Arm3 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Messages:
    149

    Display name:
    Arm3
    In this case he walked away after landing a different airplane. Does he get dual landing credit? Only person in history to log a takeoff, crash and successful landing on the same flight I think.
     
    Dana and RyanShort1 like this.
  34. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    4,243
    Location:
    Marietta, GA

    Display name:
    Dave Theisen
    Just before they jumped, one of the said “cowl flaps?” And the other one said “yeah, probably should”. Seems like it was an on the fly decision and maybe not a previously tested configuration. Could it have been something as simple as that by opening the cowl flaps deflected the airflow over the speed brake enough to cause it to pitch over too far?
     
    Ed Haywood and Piperonca like this.
  35. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2017
    Messages:
    3,351
    Location:
    hopefully not at work

    Display name:
    Meet the Fokkers
    Well that spinning prop wasn't scary at all..


    Dude reminds me of Hank from Breaking Bad. ;)
     
    Spring Ford and Jim K like this.
  36. Piperonca

    Piperonca Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    919

    Display name:
    Piperonca
    Yes. Good catch.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2022
  37. Arm3

    Arm3 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Messages:
    149

    Display name:
    Arm3
    There was also talk after about the ballast they used. It sounds like during the tests they used a safety pilot that stayed in the planes. For the actual event I gathered that they replaced the safety pilot weight with extra fuel and may have raised the CG which isn’t a factor in level flight but during the dive portion could have been a factor.

    To me it looked like both planes got a little squirrelly compared to the test attempt they showed during the lead up.
     
    Ed Haywood likes this.
  38. RussR

    RussR En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,092
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, OK

    Display name:
    Russ
    Yes, I heard that too and wondered "are they saying it because one of them missed that on the checklist, or are they doing something new that they didn't do in testing?"

    Having been involved with numerous test missions for the USAF and NASA, I found their approach to standardization, checklist use and even "test cards" very underwhelming. I'm sure they did a lot of practice and testing beforehand, but it just didn't seem that well scripted once they got in the airplane.
     
    TCABM and Piperonca like this.
  39. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    5,635

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    In fairness, barnstorming was big in the dawn of US civil aviation. It's credited in some circles with the bona fide launch of the US civil aviation sector outright, with equal credit given to the proliferation of military surplus acro capable planes for civilian purchase/access.

    Things like airplane transfers inflight were among the stunts, and this is 1920s we're talking about. So it seems the old is new again. In a way, this modern attempt is rather lipstick on a pig. Many of the regulatory bodies of today stem from pushback from the barnstorming days, and some fencing/monopolizing of revenue operations (airlines in particular.. and the whole 134.5 and PPL pro-rata things we still go round and round about today). So it would stand to reason these social media sloots would run afoul with the very agencies created to counter the former's equivalents in 1920s.
     
  40. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    12,316
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Have you ever heard of the FAA doing both?

    I’ve never even heard of a year-long suspension…seems like they’d just revoke if it was that egregious.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2022