Question: Career as a Female Pilot?

Good for you for knowing what you want to do at your age.!!! I am 58 and I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up....:)

Sorry, I am not a female so I can't help you on that part.

A lot of good thoughts here, I really can't add anything new, except maybe one thing. Stay open minded on a career in aviation. There are many other ways to make a good living flying besides airlines. (unless that is just really what you want to do) When I started flight training, age 35, I thought I wanted to fly for an airline. But things happened along the step ladder that led me on different paths in aviation which eventually led to an aviation business ownership. And eventually running a business took me out of being a line pilot (which sometimes I miss) but now I can take time off and fly the summer seasons in Alaska, which I enjoy greatly.

I did not see anything sexist in your first post, but it does appear that your dad really cares for you and is looking out for you and wants the best for you. Always remember that you will be your dads little girl no matter what age you are.

Its a big world out there, and a career in aviation will open it up for you and make the world seem smaller.!!!
 
today you can be whatever you want to be even being a female is easier.
 
I took a flight earlier this year to florida. after landing, as I walked past the male pilot, I said "nice job, captain".

on the flight back from florida, after landing, as I walked past the male pilot, I said "nice job, captain".

I took a flight recently to san fransisco. after landing, as I walked past the male pilot, I said "nice job, captain".

on the flight back from florida, which was at night in bad weather and in the clouds 100% of the time below, oh, I dunno, 20,000 feet straight thru to mimimums. after landing, as I walked past the female pilot, I said "nice job, captain".





what's my point? I dunno, just rambling. but they were all captains to me. only the last one did I think to myself "I wonder if she.............eh, nevermind".
 
denverpilot said:
Haha. I didn't know you taught at Uni. I'm trying to imagine sitting in your classroom, and it's making me chuckle out loud. I can only imagine how funny and subtle your commentary about certain students might be... after hours at the bar, perhaps... LOL.
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It's funny but I really suppress all that stuff as much as possible in the academic environment. We are all there to do one thing and that is transfer knowledge and ability. Yes, individual traits must be recognized but as the teacher you know what must be accomplished by every student. In simple terms everyone has to learn to walk a path before they can climb a mountain. In flying we all learn straight and level, turns, climbs, and descents which combined covers about 99% of the maneuvers most of us do in the air. I think that the aviation training culture does a good job on fundamentals for the most part. Finding the instructors who are just there to teach and have the experience base is the tough part as you know quite well.

Oh, and I did try to keep students engaged with an occasional chuckle...
 
Zeldman said:
A lot of good thoughts here, I really can't add anything new, except maybe one thing. Stay open minded on a career in aviation. There are many other ways to make a good living flying besides airlines.
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I completely agree with this (and I'm an airline guy). There are lots of great ways to scratch the professional pilot itch.

To the OP - the good news is that the early stages of the career ladder are all the same, so there's no hurry to make any kind of decision right now. Training will be a ton of fun - enjoy it!
 
+1 on looking into the military. (That's PoA math!)

For fixed wing look at the Navy and Air Force. For Rotors look at the Army, Marines, or Coast Guard. (Note: I expect to be flamed for writing that)

If possible, go to a military academy. Tuition is sort of free. Well, anyway your commitment to the service will be shorter than your student loan repayment. Also you get fed, clothed, and a stipend.

Reference item - when I was a Junior in High School I wanted to go to Colorado Springs. Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda. Got talked out of it by a girlfriend that didn't want me so far from SoCal. The last time I spoke to her was in 1990 when she told me she was getting married and moving to Oregon. :)

Also +1 on Economics or Engineering as majors. (Those were listed alphabetically, not in rank order)
 
Ravioli said:
+1 on looking into the military. (That's PoA math!)

For fixed wing look at the Navy and Air Force. For Rotors look at the Army, Marines, or Coast Guard.)
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Coast Guard has fixed wing as well as the Army too. Just not as many as USAF and Navy/Marines. Air Force and Navy also have helicopters. Also the Reserves and/or National Guard, especially Air Force, a great way to receive flight training free AND get paid too. Great way to establish contacts for the airlines also as many fly for the airlines in addition to Guard/Reserves.
 
Ravioli said:
+1 on looking into the military. (That's PoA math!)

If possible, go to a military academy. Tuition is sort of free. Well, anyway your commitment to the service will be shorter than your student loan repayment. Also you get fed, clothed, and a stipend.)
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Not to forget the lifetime benefits available. When I was doing the hiring any military service listed on a resume went into the look closer pile.
 
Hi Lea Marie. Welcome to Pilots of America!

I recently saw an article on Debi Rihn-Harvey's retirement flight for Southwest Airlines. There are many other female pilots flying for airlines. Pilots have to have (at least) a Flight Review every two years. My last Flight Review was done by a woman pilot who flies for the National Guard. If your goal is going to the airlines, then one of the aviation colleges like Embry-Riddle would be a good choice. They train a lot of airline pilots. Trying to get a flying job in the military would be even better, although I have not been too plugged into this lately, but the last time I talked to anyone about it, you pretty much had to have at least a private pilot certificate before going in. As far as college majors, I would second engineering or economics, especially engineering. Health requirements for pilots are pretty stringent, and having a fallback position is a very good thing in the event something happens and you can no longer pass the physical exam. There is a shortage of good engineers right now.
 
If you actually know what you want to do In life, don't let anyone stop you from following your dream. Not even your parents. They don't have to live with the regret, only you will.

A woman can get loans easily for flight school. Tell your parents you feel strongly enough about this (assuming you do) to do it without them if you have to, and they will likely come around, and if not - do it yourself.
 
James331 said:
Not at all, she's being raised to think she's some little victim and the world is stacked against her because she's a female, this is just not something that's true, nor is it something society should be ingraining into young women.

Fact is there are school and labor stats that women average higher grades in school and even higher wages for the same jobs, many large employers desperately want to be "diverse" so as a woman, going up against a man for the same job with the same qualifications, you actually have a better chance at getting the gig.

As far as sexism, it like racism, there's tons of talk about it, because it gets people all bothered, frankly it's not one hundredth the issue the "news" media make it out to be.

Physics and the airplane don't give a hoot what color or sex you are

95% of your co workers don't care

Of the 5% who give you crap for being a female, well they are *******s and would give you crap about something even if you were a male, also no one at the company likes those *******s anyways.

And for your employer, you are actually MORE likley to get the job being a female nowadays.


As far as the degree goes, don't bother, look into something that leads to a job, getting a RN in nursing goes REALLY well with aviation, and has a sweet ROI

Also many trades also have a much better ROI compared to getting a BS in BS.
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It isn't often @James331 persuades me to agree with him, but I'm finding it hard to disagree with this one. This is one of those times the coarseness of his personality serves to make his point. Unfortunately, it's a point few others are willing to make.
 
Cooter said:
It isn't often @James331 persuades me to agree with him, but I'm finding it hard to disagree with this one. This is one of those times the coarseness of his personality serves to make his point. Unfortunately, it's a point few others are willing to make.
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I don't think she is acting like a victim at all. I think her father is testing her out. Sexism does exist, I married an engineer and she had to put up with some crap at a large company. Her first few days a guy told her that she was taking a job from a man with a family, she told him that's because the man wasn't smart enough to get the job. I know many other professional females that have had to deal with crap. My daughter who just graduated from college two years ago had to deal with a moron who wouldn't take no for an answer, one of her co workers saw what was happening and told her boss, a man, who quickly handled it. So it exists, and it will probably always exist. The overt crap my wife went through is probably less now than it was 20 years ago, and one day hopefully sexism will stop happening in the workplace.

Back to the OP, she isn't acting like a victim, she is actually 16 years old and way ahead of most 21 years old in her ability to express herself understand what she is dealing with. I know many, many 20 something year olds and none of them are like those snowflakes we see in the news who need safe spaces. I think the snow flakes are a very small minority. Overall I am impressed with the younger generation and feel the majority of them will be great people when fully cooked.
 
James331 said:
Not at all, she's being raised to think she's some little victim and the world is stacked against her because she's a female, this is just not something that's true, nor is it something society should be ingraining into young women.

Fact is there are school and labor stats that women average higher grades in school and even higher wages for the same jobs, many large employers desperately want to be "diverse" so as a woman, going up against a man for the same job with the same qualifications, you actually have a better chance at getting the gig.

As far as sexism, it like racism, there's tons of talk about it, because it gets people all bothered, frankly it's not one hundredth the issue the "news" media make it out to be.

Physics and the airplane don't give a hoot what color or sex you are

95% of your co workers don't care

Of the 5% who give you crap for being a female, well they are *******s and would give you crap about something even if you were a male, also no one at the company likes those *******s anyways.

And for your employer, you are actually MORE likley to get the job being a female nowadays.


As far as the degree goes, don't bother, look into something that leads to a job, getting a RN in nursing goes REALLY well with aviation, and has a sweet ROI

Also many trades also have a much better ROI compared to getting a BS in BS.
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Oh the irony. In the same post where you keep insisting that there is no sexism in aviation employment, you recommend to a 16 year old young lady 'why don't you become a nurse' :rolleyes: Why didn't you throw elementary school teacher in there for good measure.


I do agree with you on one thing, learning a trade may be a good option. In this case, start out at a community college that offers an A&P certificate program but has an admissions agreement that gives academic credit for a BS in aviation maintenance management. Work part-time during the A&P portion for a local maintenance shop as a gofor and start to build contacts in the aviation world. Get your certificates and build some time. With the A&P, commercial cert, CFI, a degreee and experience in the aviation field, a young person has other options in aviation beyond the straight airline route.

I dont know whether any of the A&P programs in NY state offers that setup, but there may be some reciprocal tuition agreements with neighboring states like PA, NJ or CT.

And then of course there is the option just to go to Farmingdale, finish the flight program, start your first job as FO at a regional at age 22 and laugh at all of us 10 years from now.
 
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weilke said:
And then of course there is the option just to go to Farmingdale, finish the flight program, start your first job as FO at a regional at age 22 and laugh at all of us 10 years from now.
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Or study something else like Economics and still become an FO at 22 without tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Ask me how I know:)
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
hey....don't be Jones'n on nurses. They make great money....and my nephew is one.
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Yup, great career. Lots of flexibility in job settings, ability to move to different states or abroad, good money, opportunity to specialize and advance to NP/APRN/CRNA...

BUT
It requires a lot of effort in time and money to get the nursing degree in the first place. This is not like a degree in basketweaving and phys-ed where you just sit through 3 years of online classes. You need to do your clinicals, rotate to different hospitals etc. Once you have the degree, there are licensing requirements, continuing education and if you want to be any good at it, you have to continue working in the field. Oh, and you have to be cut out to work as a nurse. If you dont have the calling for it, you end up as one of those miserable clip-board carriers that infest our hospitals already. Become a nurse if you want to be a nurse, not if you want to be a pilot.
 
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weilke said:
Oh the irony. In the same post where you keep insisting that there is no sexism in aviation employment, you recommend to a 16 year old young lady 'why don't you become a nurse' :rolleyes: Why didn't you throw elementary school teacher in there for good measure.
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I soooo wanted to call that one out as well. I was thinking why not suggest engineer, scientist or accountant?

That said, I do agree with James' dislike of the father treating his daughter like a potential victim of the big bad male world. The victim mentality does nothing to move a women - or anyone - forward.
 
PaulS said:
I don't think she is acting like a victim at all. I think her father is testing her out. Sexism does exist, I married an engineer and she had to put up with some crap at a large company. Her first few days a guy told her that she was taking a job from a man with a family, she told him that's because the man wasn't smart enough to get the job. I know many other professional females that have had to deal with crap. My daughter who just graduated from college two years ago had to deal with a moron who wouldn't take no for an answer, one of her co workers saw what was happening and told her boss, a man, who quickly handled it. So it exists, and it will probably always exist. The overt crap my wife went through is probably less now than it was 20 years ago, and one day hopefully sexism will stop happening in the workplace.

Back to the OP, she isn't acting like a victim, she is actually 16 years old and way ahead of most 21 years old in her ability to express herself understand what she is dealing with. I know many, many 20 something year olds and none of them are like those snowflakes we see in the news who need safe spaces. I think the snow flakes are a very small minority. Overall I am impressed with the younger generation and feel the majority of them will be great people when fully cooked.
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I don't totally disagree with you, but James hit on an idea that needs to be better understood. There is a point at which we need to move past the identity politics and accept where we are, instead of acting like we are in the 1950s. Her dad seems more involved than most, and is doing her a service by having her investigate a career path before jumping into it. But I think what James objected to is this:
Lea Marie Medina said:
I would love it if a female CFII were to tell me about students and teaching methods... let's not forget the necessity of teaching the right things
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That is sexist. If you disagree, just replace female with "male" and you will see what I mean. She didnt ask about how women are treated, she asked about how they taught. Why would this be any different than a man's perspective? Feminist can't have it both ways. Either men and women are significantly different or they are essentially the same. If the belief is that they are the same, it is foolish to ask specifically for a woman's perspective on teaching.
 
Google cholene Espinoza. Air Force academy, instructor pilot in fighters, U2 pilot, United airlines, flew the prince of dubi for a while, then attended medical school, graduated recently and will work with the poor , in which country I can't remember. A friends daughter will graduate from the merchant marine academy in 2017 and will go to navy flight training. Has been accepted. Sky's the limit with smarts and commitment. ( honor role in high school, excellent athlete.)
 
Cooter said:
That is sexist. If you disagree, just replace female with "male" and you will see what I mean. She didnt ask about how women are treated, she asked about how they taught. Why would this be any different than a man's perspective?
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I agree with this, but keep in mind she is a young girl influenced by her father's perspective. I don't think she was being sexist, just curious for other women's experiences as CFII's. She probably assumed there were more women on these boards than there are and wanted their perspective, perhaps in partial curiosity as to whether they've faced obstacles because they are women.

Unfortunately, there aren't many women here to offer that perspective. I'm a pilot, but not professionally so. All I can offer is that 95% of the male pilots I've met at FBOs, my school and elsewhere are wonderful to chat with and have shown me nothing but respect... the other 5% either don't know that my eyes are ~1 ft above my boobs or they talk to me like I'm a little child who is so adorable to think I can fly a big ol' airplane.

Honestly, I've faced more suppressive views from other women (not pilots) than I have men (pilots or not pilots). One of my first posts on PoA was about how shocked I was by the reaction I got from women, not men, about my desire to become a pilot. I've been treated like a bad mom.... "But what about your kids if something happens to you?!" A bad wife... "Yeah, but what does your husband think about all this?" A bad daughter.... "Oh your poor mom must be a nervous wreck!" And just generally a bad person... "What if you crash and kill people on the ground?"

Those comments come mostly from women, not men.
 
Ugh, James wasn't suggesting nurse because she's female. He's recommended it the past for males as well. It's not the 1950s anymore and the population of male nurses is always growing. I'd say in flight programs, it's almost 50 / 50.

I agree with his assessment on sexism also. It's not nearly as bad as the media makes it out to be. Quit winning about hurtles in a male dominated field. Females have the same opportunities as males in aviation. From what I've seen in the military, if anything, they get preferential treatment. It's not 1994 anymore and no one in the military cares that your female and want to serve in combat roles. Just do your damn job.
 
The companies and airlines dont care where you went to college or what you majored in. They DO care about your flying experience. You need to understand the ways of getting to ATP. There are schools that can get you to ATP with fewer hours right? Im not sure how that works but you need to find out. In state public schools are the least expensive school option.

But barring that, just go to an instate 2 year college that has a 4 year college to transfer to, then transfer to that 4 year and work your flight training in as best you can and become an instructor to get the hours you need is the least expensive way.
 
My suggestion it to approach the career in a gender neutral way. Above all, don't wear a chip on your shoulder about being female, because someone will surely knock it off. I'm sure you will do fine.
 
Cooter said:
I don't totally disagree with you, but James hit on an idea that needs to be better understood. There is a point at which we need to move past the identity politics and accept where we are, instead of acting like we are in the 1950s. Her dad seems more involved than most, and is doing her a service by having her investigate a career path before jumping into it. But I think what James objected to is this:

That is sexist. If you disagree, just replace female with "male" and you will see what I mean. She didnt ask about how women are treated, she asked about how they taught. Why would this be any different than a man's perspective? Feminist can't have it both ways. Either men and women are significantly different or they are essentially the same. If the belief is that they are the same, it is foolish to ask specifically for a woman's perspective on teaching.
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She wants to talk to a female, she said that up front and she said why. That is not sexist, you and James can't pull sentences out of the post with out considering them within the context of what she asks and what she is asking. And you know, look at the response she's gotten, mostly from the guys, micro analyzing what she wrote. We have no idea if she is a feminist or not, nor really is it any of our business. She's a 16 year old, give her a break.

Lea, pay no attention to this banter, it's how we entertain ourselves here. There are really a bunch of nice people here.
 
PaulS said:
Lea, pay not attention to this banter, it's how we entertain ourselves here. There are really a bunch of nice people here.
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This part I agree with. In the interest of Holiday Cheer, I'll leave the rest alone. :) James can speak for himself, he doesn't need me to defend him.
 
FlySince9 said:
I was not criticizing your facts... It was the language in your presentation to a young lady that I had trouble with...consider your audience before you sound off...
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Way to fuel the sexism, white knight. How do you even assume another man's tone is in any way, shape, or form subject to your dictation?
 
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I came back late, my apologies.

1) I can't enlist due to a surgery I had. It's not disqualifying according to the FAA medicals, but it's enough to bar me from ever going into military aviation (dishonor to my family).

2) Farmingdale SUNY is a Part 141. I won't be in a lot of debt, on my way out. If I even did get into debt, I'd be able to pay it off in less than a year and have a house at the same time... (I guess timing really is of essence; I've never seen such an opportunity like this ever and I don't see any hugely impacting reason to turn it down).

3) I just asked for female CFI's because that's the gender category under which I was told to ask. I already have a male CFI friend from FSUNY, but I still have to talk to a woman for this paper because he doesn't believe all of what the job encompasses (and in his eyes, especially for a woman).

4) Was going to quote Confucius on work.

5) I mean, I'm still taking up Econ and maybe ATC work because I love working with radio equipment (VHF/Yaesu user), but all in all, I do have backup plans that are good, but not much of what I would actually see myself doing for years on end. Happily, at least. I know that some female ATP have hard times being with family, and I understand that it stresses out both financially and socially. The input is extremely valuable, even from the male perspective.

6) @Cajun_Flyer do you mind if I PM you when I get the chance to?

7) Gramercy to all! Still need ready contacts... Will keep reading the comments on my thread as the points build up.

8) FAA doesn't x-ray you, right? So far, I only see the need for glasses. Otherwise, I'm A-OK and just have to get a bit of a booster. :p
 
Lea Marie Medina said:
2) Farmingdale SUNY is a Part 141. I won't be in a lot of debt, on my way out. If I even did get into debt, I'd be able to pay it off in less than a year and have a house at the same time... (I guess timing really is of essence; I've never seen such an opportunity like this ever and I don't see any hugely impacting reason to turn it down).
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Being part 141 DOES NOT automatically mean you are eligible for the reduced hour ATP. Refer to my previous post for a list of FAA approved universities AND the accompanying degree programs that you can get the reduced hour ATP with! The flight training (at a minimum the initial instrument rating and initial commercial certificate) must be completed at the university ALONG with the accompanying degree program. It's both combined can get you the reduced hours, not just one or the other. And as I said the university and degree program must be on the FAA approved list for the reduced hours
 
JustinD said:
Being part 141 DOES NOT automatically mean you are eligible for the reduced hour ATP. Refer to my previous post for a list of FAA approved universities AND the accompanying degree programs that you can get the reduced hour ATP with! The flight training (at a minimum the initial instrument rating and initial commercial certificate) must be completed at the university ALONG with the accompanying degree program. It's both combined can get you the reduced hours, not just one or the other. And as I said the university and degree program must be on the FAA approved list for the reduced hours
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Farmingdale is listed with the Bachelors in aeronautical science. Based on the criteria on the top of the document, this should get one the 1000hr waiver.
 
I'm not certain she's concerned about the reduced hour ATP.

I am curious about the cost diff for the reduced ATP vs having to fly another 500 hours. Those aviation schools are downright expensive.

If she did get her CFII prior to entering college, she could be building up those hours while 1.) Making money, and 2.) Earning a degree in some major other than a rather restrictive Aviation Science. All while paying WAY less than the typical aviation university.
 
Anymouse said:
I'm not certain she's concerned about the reduced hour ATP.

I am curious about the cost diff for the reduced ATP vs having to fly another 500 hours. Those aviation schools are downright expensive.

If she did get her CFII prior to entering college, she could be building up those hours while 1.) Making money, and 2.) Earning a degree in some major other than a rather restrictive Aviation Science. All while paying WAY less than the typical aviation university.
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Farmingdale in-state tuition is listed $3250 (+700 fees) which is about average for a state school. I dont think you'll get a degree in the SUNY system for much less than that. The flight program in Farmingdale is listed as '$9000' but it doesn't specify what that includes or how many semesters one has to pay that fee.

Some of the college flight programs are silly expensive. In Fargo we see flight students who attend UND aeronautics but obtain their FAA certs part 61 using their own aircraft and freelance instructors.
 
weilke said:
Farmingdale is listed with the Bachelors in aeronautical science. Based on the criteria on the top of the document, this should get one the 1000hr waiver.
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That document doesn't specify which majors and universities offer 1,000 reduced or the 1,250 reduced it's simply institutions which are FAA approved with FAA approved coursework to offer some form of reduced total time RATP. You'd have to contact the individual university for the approved classes list to reach the required 60 hours of credit in FAA approved related coursework to get the 1,000 RATP, only 30 required for the 1,250. I'd be willing to bet if the schools bachelors in AS is on there that it's probably eligible for the 1,000 but it would be well worth anyone who is planning on it's while to call and at least make sure.

@Anymouse as for the cost worth of those 500 hours. If you can get that time before you graduate then it really doesn't matter, but if you'll have to spend more time AFTER graduating to get that time, then you are losing seniority and there is no telling how much monetary composition you will miss out on as a result of that lost seniority and lest not forget quality of life. In an airline industry that's growing quick, that 500 hours translates to a lot of people ahead of you in seniority. I obviously can't speak for others but I can tell you had I needed to get 500 hours more than I had when I entered the airline field my quality of life wouldnt be nearly as good, and I would have not made nearly as much so far, it's literally the difference between me being a line holding captain already for over a year and not being captain yet.

Of course this is all a mute point if she isn't intending on entering the airline world, but if she is it's good information to have!
 
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