Question: Career as a Female Pilot?

James331 said:
I guess this is where I have a hard time relating to racist folks, I don't see a all white, or a mixed, or a all black company, I just see a company and its staff, never really thought race, but I can tell you the faster guys from the slower guys, the guys you want to go fishing with, the guys into extream sports, etc

Actually had to take a second and take a race inventory of my crew lol, it's got to be hard being racist, got to keep track of all these things, or do you just ignore their abilities and personalities and just focus on the race and sex? Excel sheet? maybe a color coded pie chart? lol

I'm kinda clueless on the nuances of racism/sexism/misc isms
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Being race/gender blind is good, no disagreement there.
 
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RotorDude said:
Being color/gender blind is good, no disagreement there.
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I just call is not being a racist or sexist, blindness is a disability, and I wouldn't classify not being a racist as a disability.
 
RotorDude said:
That's not what I said. First, I never said "impossible", only "hard". Discrimination can also involve harassment and can often be very covert and subtle. So you might not be aware of it unless you are on the receiving end.
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So women might not realize how often men are being discriminated against because it can be very covert and subtle? Right?
 
Salty said:
So women might not realize how often men are being discriminated against because it can be very covert and subtle? Right?
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I would say yes.

In general, I think that the victims of discrimination are the people who are most likely to be aware of it.
 
Salty said:
So women might not realize how often men are being discriminated against because it can be very covert and subtle? Right?
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True. But you'd hear all kinds of stories about men complaining about subtle discrimination because of their gender, which you don't, unlike the reverse.
 
James331 said:
I just call is not being a racist or sexist, blindness is a disability, and I wouldn't classify not being a racist as a disability.
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So call it "-neutral" or "-agnostic", or just "merit focused". The latter would cover other cases of bias besides just sex and race.
 
Velocity173 said:
I'd agree with that but the only exception would be flight nurses. Need a policy that they all have to be female. ;)
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Speaking of that we would sometimes get amusing comments when I flew with a male flight nurse. Neither of us were offended even though we realized there was gender stereotyping going on. In fact one time, the nurse told the patient's wife who was confused about our respective roles, "I don't think you want her taking care of your husband, and you sure as heck don't want me flying the airplane!"

Yes, people will view you in a different way as a female, and it's a double-edged sword. But all people face obstacles. It better to approach it with a sense of humor and realize that the true jerks are just that. Why would you care what they think?
 
RotorDude said:
I think it's obvious that as society tries to right a wrong, such as past overt discrimination against a minority, they sometimes over-correct and end up with reverse discrimination. I think in aviation it's less prevalent than in other areas, esp. since the ratio of female pilots in aviation compared to their target 50% is still so low. Also, this may be very sexist, but I personally think that women have many natural advantages over men, esp. when it comes to judgment and safety, and therefore I would have no problem with women pilots being given a slight edge, at least until they are at the 50% level.
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Why should it be at a 50% level, and why is that a goal?
 
James331 said:
Oh yeah, all races welcome, as long as they are 10s lol
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Please, I'm only thinking about safety here James. Head out of the gutter. Average weight of a female in America is 166 lbs. Average weight of a male is 195 lbs. That's a total of almost 60 lbs savings that I can bank coming out of a high DA LZ. That's about 3/4 of a percent torque gained!

Hot female nurses...SMH.
 
Cooter said:
Why should it be at a 50% level, and why is that a goal?
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It doesn't have to be perfect, but it's a good target to aim for. I think when you deviate substantially from the ratio of a group compared to society as a whole, you become less effective. That's just my personal view based on my own experience and you are free to disagree.
 
RotorDude said:
I agree with you when it comes to the best policy in a "steady state" environment. But if you have any organization or company that's disproportionately (and significantly) skewed towards any single race or gender, it is unhealthy and less productive than it can be, in my opinion. So if I were boss/owner, my goal would be to get a good reflection of society in my work force, possibly by giving minorities a very slight edge (not a big one, because that would create problems). Once that's done, I'd revert to pure merit.
Specifically in the case of female/male ratio, I think an even mix is generally more productive.
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This idea really is the root of the problem. You have bought into a political agenda that is not based in reality. What you advocate is racism, sexism, and discrimination in favor of whatever other demographic you target. Show me statistics that demonstrate anything other then a perfect representation of the local population is less productive. There are too many factors determining who pursues what jobs in any culture. There are many reasons why things separate along demographic lines, and to simply attribute them to racism, sexism or other biases is simple minded and wrong. Finding the truth frequently requires more mental rigor than simply buying the easy answers that suit political purposes. You have confused equality with outcome with equality of opportunity and that is a terrible error.
 
Cooter said:
This idea really is the root of the problem. You have bought into a political agenda that is not based in reality. What you advocate is racism, sexism, and discrimination in favor of whatever other demographic you target. Show me statistics that demonstrate anything other then a perfect representation of the local population is less productive. There are too many factors determining who pursues what jobs in any culture. There are many reasons why things separate along demographic lines, and to simply attribute them to racism, sexism or other biases is simple minded and wrong. Finding the truth frequently requires more mental rigor this simply buying the easy answers that suit political purposes. You have confused equality with outcome with equality of opportunity and that is a terrible error.
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I think you are reading too much into it. I am not confusing anything, since what I say is based on basic principles. All I am saying is that having disproportionate representation compared to society at large is generally counterproductive. I am sure there are exceptions, esp. in smaller organizations, but in general a variety of genders, races and cultures promotes productivity and success. That's what America is all about, warts and all.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I guess I'm just trying to make the point that we are always the ones ultimately in control of our lives and I don't think it's wrong for her to say that. We pick things we care about and make us happy, then we have to make a lot of sacrifices to accomplish those or maintain those things (dictated schedules, loss of sleep, etc). But it's still our chose to make those sacrifices.

Ok... NOW I'm moving onto beer o'clock! Peace :)
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Valid point, enjoy yourself.
 
I don't think we should aim for 50% female pilots any more then we should aim for 50% male nurses (or other profession that has a large number of females). However, gender should not be a barrier to entry. I don't see that it is any more.
 
RotorDude said:
So call it "-neutral" or "-agnostic", or just "merit focused". The latter would cover other cases of bias besides just sex and race.
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Dude, we already have too many cute terms for me to keep up with, I could go with

Not being a *******

Not a racist

Normal.
 
Palmpilot said:
There was nothing wrong with the structure of my post.
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One last attempt, then I'll let it be. If men aren't able to see discrimination against women and women aren't able to see discrimination against men, then neither side would be able to tell whether they are being discriminated against or being treated differently than the other sex. It is a humorous philosophical point that points out flaw in your view. Men don't need to become women in order to recognize sexism, otherwise we could never see our faults and would blindly have to trust the other's word on it. No one could ever reject the charge of sexism made by the other sex. People accustomed to pedantic argument would have picked up on his challenge, others won't so it's not a big deal.

There is a difference in saying sexism occurs and sexist culture exists. There are always jacka$$es, period. Discrimination will always exist, and it isn't always a bad thing. The question isn't whether or not there is some cretin out there who will try to kiss Cajun on the cheek. There is now and there always will be. But the point is that now, no one likes that guy and everyone knows he's an a$$. He's the exception, not the rule. The real question of sexism is whether women are purposefully being excluded because of the fact that they are women, and whether they have less opportunity as men. We are well beyond the point where that was the case. Just go look at any of the application sites for major airlines (as I posted above) or recruiting posters for the military. It's a joke. If anyone is being discriminated against, it is white men. There is a reason every airline application asks for your sex and race, and it isn't to get more white men on board. I've been around aviation for a long time and I haven't encountered many black women pilots, actually none that I can remember off the top of my head. But, if you were to look at pilot recruitment sites you would have to assume that they make up 25% of the pilot field. There are a lot of reasons why black women aren't pilots in large numbers, but racism and sexism isn't one of them to any significant degree. Cajun can say some guy tried to kiss her on the cheek, I can say my application is less likely to get pulled because I'm a white man. But the fact is we both still have the opportunity to achieve what we want to achieve. Life isn't totally fair, but in America it's a lot more fair that most anywhere else.
 
Damn! Sobered me right up! :hairraise:

And I'm not even drinking. Yet.
 
Now I get it. We have achieved complete meritocracy and the only discrimination left is against white men.

Lol.
 
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Anymouse said:
Perhaps men should try living as women to see what their life is like...

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... or not. :eek2:
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So if there is no significant difference between men and women, why are men trying to become women and vice versa? If we're all the same, I don't get the desire to identify with the other sex. Either that picture is a travesty or it is meaningless.
 
Cooter said:
So if there is no significant difference between men and women, why are men trying to become women and vice versa? If we're all the same, I don't get the desire to identify with the other sex. Either that picture is a travesty or it is meaningless.
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Hey leave Bruce, er, whatever, Jenner out of this! :D
 
Anymouse said:
Actually, I kinda thought the person in the picture looked like Terry Bradshaw.
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If he's trying to live like a woman, he's not trying very hard. BTW, you are showing your anti-bald bias. Not all male pattern baldness men with grey hair are the same.
 
labbadabba said:
I was wondering when @Cajun_Flyer was going to weigh in on this. To say sexism is a construct of the media or Hollywood makes me laugh. We like to pretend that we live in a meritocracy but that's never been the case. The stuff I've seen my female counterparts have to endure, even in careers that aren't male dominated is disturbing. Yes, there are times when the blade cuts both ways but in most careers, women face greater obstacles to success. Not to say they can't or don't succeed but there's an institutional bias that exists that must be overcome in many cases.

The tricky part is that overt sexism and racism has been largely eliminated so people point to that and say it doesn't exist any longer. Problem is, the same biases exist even if to a different degree. They've become more insidious as we've been gaslighted to believe we live in a post-racial meritocracy.
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The overt and unpunished behavior can be controlled and essentially eliminated.

People that actually are racist and sexist will always exist. There will be times in all of our lives that we have to deal with them. Anyone that suggests none of this exists is living in a dream world. What I do think is we are getting much closer to an equal opportunity environment for being on the receiving end of discrimination regardless of race or gender.
 
RotorDude said:
True. But you'd hear all kinds of stories about men complaining about subtle discrimination because of their gender, which you don't, unlike the reverse.
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Would you really hear about it? Do you not think that there is a significant cultural bias against men complaining about being treated unfairly? Aren't men "expected" to be men and stand up for themselves when the discrimination occurs rather than whine about it later?

The media is constantly telling us women's issues are worse than the statistics because they are culturally taught to stay quiet. Why doesn't this apply to men?
 
Salty said:
Would you really hear about it? Do you not think that there is a significant cultural bias against men complaining about being treated unfairly? Aren't men "expected" to be men and stand up for themselves when the discrimination occurs rather than whine about it later?

The media is constantly telling us women's issues are worse than the statistics because they are culturally taught to stay quiet. Why doesn't this apply to men?
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You may regard this as sexist, but in my opinion real men don't complain about being treated unfairly. They work hard and try to excel, and if their bosses don't appreciate them, they move on to another job, or start their own company. The ones who complain are wimps, which might explain why they were passed over by others.
In other words, I think we are in agreement. :)
 
RotorDude said:
You may regard this as sexist, but in my opinion real men don't complain about being treated unfairly. They work hard and try to excel, and if their bosses don't appreciate them, they move on to another job, or start their own company. The ones who complain are wimps, which might explain why they were passed over by others.
In other words, I think we are in agreement. :)
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Isn't the same true for women?
 
My apologies to the OP for distracting from her thread, but I hope the discussion is helping her see things related to her query from different points of view.
 
Cooter said:
One last attempt, then I'll let it be. If men aren't able to see discrimination against women and women aren't able to see discrimination against men, then neither side would be able to tell whether they are being discriminated against or being treated differently than the other sex. It is a humorous philosophical point that points out flaw in your view. Men don't need to become women in order to recognize sexism, otherwise we could never see our faults and would blindly have to trust the other's word on it. No one could ever reject the charge of sexism made by the other sex. People accustomed to pedantic argument would have picked up on his challenge, others won't so it's not a big deal.

There is a difference in saying sexism occurs and sexist culture exists. There are always jacka$$es, period. Discrimination will always exist, and it isn't always a bad thing. The question isn't whether or not there is some cretin out there who will try to kiss Cajun on the cheek. There is now and there always will be. But the point is that now, no one likes that guy and everyone knows he's an a$$. He's the exception, not the rule. The real question of sexism is whether women are purposefully being excluded because of the fact that they are women, and whether they have less opportunity as men. We are well beyond the point where that was the case. Just go look at any of the application sites for major airlines (as I posted above) or recruiting posters for the military. It's a joke. If anyone is being discriminated against, it is white men. There is a reason every airline application asks for your sex and race, and it isn't to get more white men on board. I've been around aviation for a long time and I haven't encountered many black women pilots, actually none that I can remember off the top of my head. But, if you were to look at pilot recruitment sites you would have to assume that they make up 25% of the pilot field. There are a lot of reasons why black women aren't pilots in large numbers, but racism and sexism isn't one of them to any significant degree. Cajun can say some guy tried to kiss her on the cheek, I can say my application is less likely to get pulled because I'm a white man. But the fact is we both still have the opportunity to achieve what we want to achieve. Life isn't totally fair, but in America it's a lot more fair that most anywhere else.
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You make some good points, but I would just point out that I didn't say that men and women are unable to see ANY discrimination against the opposite sex. I do, however, see no reason to assume that all of us are aware of all of it.

The same problem has existed in the area of race relations. When the book Black Like Me came out, it caused quite a stir, because a lot of people had been relatively unaware of what it was like to be black in the South in 1959 or 1960. A white man went to a dermatologist to have his pigmentation temporarily altered, so that he was able to pass for black. He was amazed by what he learned, as were those who read his account of his experiences. The following article gives a good summary:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/16/AR2007031602173.html
 
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Cooter said:
I've got to go fly, but I will be happy to pick this up this evening. It was an argumentative point mixed with an attempt to have a little fun, and also point out the absurdity of the situation we find ourselves in nowadays. Having to explain it takes the fun out of it.
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Different strokes for different folks: For me, explaining is half the fun!
 
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