Question: Career as a Female Pilot?

Cajun_Flyer said:
Still lost. Who on this thread said otherwise?
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Since no one has, I will. There are obviously cases where men have been discrimated against in aviation. Likely other fields as well.

That's not hard to acknowledge. Not sure why some men on here find it hard to acknowledge women are also discriminated against and are instead trying to claim it's all some made up thing by the media.

No one on here is claiming sexism can't go both ways. We are simply discussing sexism against women. If you'd like to also discuss it against men, start a thread.
 
I was wondering when @Cajun_Flyer was going to weigh in on this. To say sexism is a construct of the media or Hollywood makes me laugh. We like to pretend that we live in a meritocracy but that's never been the case. The stuff I've seen my female counterparts have to endure, even in careers that aren't male dominated is disturbing. Yes, there are times when the blade cuts both ways but in most careers, women face greater obstacles to success. Not to say they can't or don't succeed but there's an institutional bias that exists that must be overcome in many cases.

The tricky part is that overt sexism and racism has been largely eliminated so people point to that and say it doesn't exist any longer. Problem is, the same biases exist even if to a different degree. They've become more insidious as we've been gaslighted to believe we live in a post-racial meritocracy.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Still lost. Who on this thread said otherwise?
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Read Saltys statement and think about it for a little while.
It's called logical consistency, fruitful argument requires it.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Just yesterday one of my superiors (male) put his arm around my shoulders, squeezed me into him and kissed me on the cheek. I wanted to throw up. Think he would have done that to a guy?
.
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SkyDog would! :eek:
 
Cooter said:
Read Saltys statement and think about it for a little while.
It's called logical consistency, fruitful argument requires it.
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I don't have to think about it a little while. I understand his point quite clearly.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I don't have to think about it a little while. I understand his point quite clearly.
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Then you shouldn't be lost. He attempted to correct the structure of someone's point, not make statements about the content of the argument. I think you have confused them.
 
Cooter said:
Then you shouldn't be lost. He attempted to correct the structure of someone's point, not make statements about the content of the argument. I think you have confused them.
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There was nothing wrong with the structure of my post.
 
I've got to go fly, but I will be happy to pick this up this evening. It was an argumentative point mixed with an attempt to have a little fun, and also point out the absurdity of the situation we find ourselves in nowadays. Having to explain it takes the fun out of it.
 
I think it's obvious that as society tries to right a wrong, such as past overt discrimination against a minority, they sometimes over-correct and end up with reverse discrimination. I think in aviation it's less prevalent than in other areas, esp. since the ratio of female pilots in aviation compared to their target 50% is still so low. Also, this may be very sexist, but I personally think that women have many natural advantages over men, esp. when it comes to judgment and safety, and therefore I would have no problem with women pilots being given a slight edge, at least until they are at the 50% level.
 
RotorDude said:
I think it's obvious that as society tries to right a wrong, such as past overt discrimination against a minority, they sometimes over-correct and end up with reverse discrimination. I think in aviation it's far less prevalent than in other areas, esp. since the ratio of female pilots in aviation compared to their target 50% is still so low. Also, this may be very sexist, but I personally think that women have many natural advantages over men, esp. when it comes to judgment and safety, and therefore I would have no problem with women pilots being given a slight edge, at least until they are at the 50% level.
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so you're volunteering to sit out your flying career for the females? :D

that's my story for upper management.....I'm letting them all have at it. :lol:
 
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Cooter said:
I've got to go fly, but I will be happy to pick this up this evening. It was an argumentative point mixed with an attempt to have a little fun, and also point out the absurdity of the situation we find ourselves in nowadays. Having to explain it takes the fun out of it.
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You know you could have made this easier on yourself if you just told me to get back in the kitchen where I belong! ;) Of course, I have ZERO clue what to do once I'm there, as my husband can tragically attest to, but I'd at least stand there barefoot and drink a beer.

I'm done arguing anyway. It's almost time to open such a beer and crack out on my new flight sim.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
You know you could have made this easier on yourself if you just told me to get back in the kitchen where I belong! ;) Of course, I have ZERO clue what to do once I'm there, as my husband can tragically attest to, but I'd at least stand there barefoot and drink a beer.

I'm done arguing anyway. It's almost time to open such a beer and crack out on my new flight sim.
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Never drink and sim.
 
RotorDude said:
I would have no problem with women pilots being given a slight edge, at least until they are at the 50% level.
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While I understand the argument, I don't like it. I don't think people should be hired because of their sex or race, they just shouldn't have their sex or race held against them in the hiring process. I never want to be pity hired or hired for anything less than my merits, the ones I have worked damn hard to acquire.

The only thing hiring people based on such attributes accomplishes is building resentment, such as that which has seeped through many of these posts. I don't think that resentment isn't justified.

The most qualified candidates should always be the ones hired.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
? I was about her age when I realized I was at the controls of my own life. Twenty years later and that still holds true. Sure, other things jump in and throw wrenches in my plans sometimes, but how I respond to those things is solely on my own shoulders. I like her attitude.
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So you decided when you would work, go to school, how many hours each day you got to sleep? I'm not referring to deciding what you wanna do, I made that choice right about then as well. But I work a full time job and have flight practice 3 times a week. and my entire life is scheduled around that, untill you get a "dream job" level career and choose when you wanna work, when you have off, and where you are all the time, Your job and schooling of choice is "at the controls".
 
labbadabba said:
I was wondering when @Cajun_Flyer was going to weigh in on this. To say sexism is a construct of the media or Hollywood makes me laugh. We like to pretend that we live in a meritocracy but that's never been the case. The stuff I've seen my female counterparts have to endure, even in careers that aren't male dominated is disturbing. Yes, there are times when the blade cuts both ways but in most careers, women face greater obstacles to success. Not to say they can't or don't succeed but there's an institutional bias that exists that must be overcome in many cases.

The tricky part is that overt sexism and racism has been largely eliminated so people point to that and say it doesn't exist any longer. Problem is, the same biases exist even if to a different degree. They've become more insidious as we've been gaslighted to believe we live in a post-racial meritocracy.
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This is accurate, and well said. People might get mad:D
 
Palmpilot said:
I don't get that from what she wrote.
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How? She is a sixteen year old highschool student. She's going to graduate, get a job and start flight school. She's not going to have control of any of her life at that point other than becoming a pilot, she gonna go to work, flight school, bed. Repeat, that's hardly control. I lived this and still am.
 
Jim Case said:
So you decided when you would work, go to school, how many hours each day you got to sleep? I'm not referring to deciding what you wanna do, I made that choice right about then as well. But I work a full time job and have flight practice 3 times a week. and my entire life is scheduled around that, untill you get a "dream job" level career and choose when you wanna work, when you have off, and where you are all the time, Your job and schooling of choice is "at the controls".
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To all of those initial questions - yes. Everything is a choice. Some of those choices can have unpleasant consequnces, obviously.

You have much to learn, young grasshopper (as do I... don't get me wrong). But, if there's one running theme/take home message to this thread, it is that none of us are victims. We can blame society or our parents or whoever, but at the end of the day we are in control of our lives. And to those bad things that get thrown at us that we can't do anything about, our attitudes and actions going forward are still in our control and can help dictate how much happiness we are able to still squeeze out of our day to day.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
To all of those initial questions - yes. Everything is a choice. Some of those choices can have unpleasant consequnces, obviously.

You have much to learn, young grasshopper (as do I... don't get me wrong). But, if there's one running theme/take home message to this thread, it is that none of us are victims. We can blame society or our parents or whoever, but at the end of the day we are in control of our lives. And to those bad things that get thrown at us that we can't do anything about, our attitudes and actions going forward are still in our control and can help dictate how much happiness we are able to still squeeze out of our day to day.
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I like what you say here :) and I by no means consider myself a victim, i made the choice to fly, and I regret nothing. I disagree with the part about me being in control however, the decision to become a pilot is the only part I had any control over, the path that takes me there has left me with almost no control over my life, time, etc. But never the less, I like the way you put that.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
To all of those initial questions - yes. Everything is a choice. Some of those choices can have unpleasant consequnces, obviously.

You have much to learn, young grasshopper (as do I... don't get me wrong). But, if there's one running theme/take home message to this thread, it is that none of us are victims. We can blame society or our parents or whoever, but at the end of the day we are in control of our lives. And to those bad things that get thrown at us that we can't do anything about, our attitudes and actions going forward are still in our control and can help dictate how much happiness we are able to still squeeze out of our day to day.
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I guess I'm just trying to make the point that we are always the ones ultimately in control of our lives and I don't think it's wrong for her to say that. We pick things we care about and make us happy, then we have to make a lot of sacrifices to accomplish those or maintain those things (dictated schedules, loss of sleep, etc). But it's still our chose to make those sacrifices.

Ok... NOW I'm moving onto beer o'clock! Peace :)
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
While I understand the argument, I don't like it. I don't think people should be hired because of their sex or race, they just shouldn't have their sex or race held against them in the hiring process. I never want to be pity hired or hired for anything less than my merits, the ones I have worked damn hard to acquire.

The only thing hiring people based on such attributes accomplishes is building resentment, such as that which has seeped through many of these posts. I don't think that resentment isn't justified.

The most qualified candidates should always be the ones hired.
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I agree with you when it comes to the best policy in a "steady state" environment. But if you have any organization or company that's disproportionately (and significantly) skewed towards any single race or gender, it is unhealthy and less productive than it can be, in my opinion. So if I were boss/owner, my goal would be to get a good reflection of society in my work force, possibly by giving minorities a very slight edge (not a big one, because that would create problems). Once that's done, I'd revert to pure merit.
Specifically in the case of female/male ratio, I think an even mix is generally more productive.
 
RotorDude said:
I agree with you when it comes to the best policy in a "steady state" environment. But if you have any organization or company that's disproportionately (and significantly) skewed towards any single race or gender, it is unhealthy and less productive than it can be, in my opinion. So if I were boss/owner, my goal would be to get a good reflection of society in my work force, possibly by giving minorities a very slight edge (not a big one, because that would create problems). Once that's done, I'd revert to pure merit.
Specifically in the case of female/male ratio, I think an even mix is generally more productive.
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If I were boss, I'd hire the people of the type of society I want, I'd hire people that get chit done.

Could care less their color, sex, or whatever, hiring a black man because he's a black man is as wrong as firing man because he's black. Call it whatever you want, it racist, and it isn't conducive to running a successful company.
 
James331 said:
If I were boss, I'd hire the people of the type of society I want, I'd hire people that get chit done.

Could care less their color, sex, or whatever, hiring a black man because he's a black man is as wrong as firing man because he's black. Call it whatever you want, it racist, and it isn't conducive to running a successful company.
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I don't disagree, but I think having extreme mixes (e.g. all black or all white, or all male or all female) can cause issues, and become less productive. But sure, ideally, we should be gender/race blind and merit-based, and things will take care of themselves.
 
RotorDude said:
I think you are missing the point. When you are in a majority, it's hard to tell when the minority is being discriminated against. When you yourself are discriminated against, then it's fairly easy, assuming you are reasonably objective. So it's not a symmetrical situation as you seem to imply.
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So, it's impossible to tell if someone else is being treated differently than everyone else, but at the same time you can tell if you are being treated different than those same people that you aren't able to judge about..... hmm......
 
James331 said:
If I were boss, I'd hire the people of the type of society I want, I'd hire people that get chit done.

Could care less their color, sex, or whatever, hiring a black man because he's a black man is as wrong as firing man because he's black. Call it whatever you want, it racist, and it isn't conducive to running a successful company.
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I'd agree with that but the only exception would be flight nurses. Need a policy that they all have to be female. ;)
 
Jim Case said:
How? She is a sixteen year old highschool student. She's going to graduate, get a job and start flight school. She's not going to have control of any of her life at that point other than becoming a pilot, she gonna go to work, flight school, bed. Repeat, that's hardly control. I lived this and still am.
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I was talking about your interpretation of Cajun's post. As she went on to say in that same post, "Sure, other things jump in and throw wrenches in my plans sometimes, but how I respond to those things is solely on my own shoulders." Furthermore, knowing what you want to do with your life does not necessarily translate into being able to "decide when you would work, go to school, how many hours each day you got to sleep."
 
RotorDude said:
I don't disagree, but I think having extreme mixes (e.g. all black or all white, or all male or all female) can cause issues, and become less productive. But sure, ideally, we should be gender/race blind and merit-based, and things will take care of themselves.
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I guess this is where I have a hard time relating to racist folks, I don't see a all white, or a mixed, or a all black company, I just see a company and its staff, never really thought race, but I can tell you the faster guys from the slower guys, the guys you want to go fishing with, the guys into extream sports, etc

Actually had to take a second and take a race inventory of my crew lol, it's got to be hard being racist, got to keep track of all these things, or do you just ignore their abilities and personalities and just focus on the race and sex? Excel sheet? maybe a color coded pie chart? lol

I'm kinda clueless on the nuances of racism/sexism/misc isms
 
Salty said:
So, it's impossible to tell if someone else is being treated differently than everyone else, but at the same time you can tell if you are being treated different than those same people that you aren't able to judge about..... hmm......
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That's not what I said. First, I never said "impossible", only "hard". Discrimination can also involve harassment and can often be very covert and subtle. So you might not be aware of it unless you are on the receiving end.
 
Velocity173 said:
I'd agree with that but the only exception would be flight nurses. Need a policy that they all have to be female. ;)
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Oh yeah, all races welcome, as long as they are 10s lol
 
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