Pushback!? We Don't Need No Stinking Pushback!

[FlyingTiger]

First time I have seen a plane use thrust reverse to taxi from the ramp to the runway.

The Buffalo sure has some impressive STOL performance.

 

[weilke]

Do they have a propeller brake, or a clutch ?

Ah, must be a APU that fires up first.

 

[Sac Arrow]

It's great, but the video was 10 minutes too long.

 

[Lachlan]

Cool video. Ugly airplane, but very cool. 100% function with no care given to style. My kind of airplane!

 

[Ted]

Cool video. Ugly airplane, but very cool. 100% function with no care given to style. My kind of airplane!

I think that's a requirement for all deHavilland aircraft.

 

[Clark1961]

I think that's a requirement for all deHavilland aircraft.

Noooooooo, maybe most but not all

 

[Kritchlow]

1) I've never seen this as an approved procedure in US commercial aviation.

2) Don't hit the brakes!!

3) I've backed up a Cessna 310. Not easy to do without reverse, but possible.

 

[Pilawt]

I remember in the late 1960s watching the early Twin Otters of Aero Commuter (later Golden West Airlines) back out of tight parking spaces at cramped Fullerton Municipal Airport, like a soccer mom's minivan backing out of a parking space at Safeway.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

1) I've never seen this as an approved procedure in US commercial aviation.

2) Don't hit the brakes!!

3) I've backed up a Cessna 310. Not easy to do without reverse, but possible.

Power backs off the gate are approved in 121.

Depends on the carrier I guess. I've been a pax on several flights that have powered back and have been working on a couple as well.

 

[weilke]

SkyWest used to do a neat trick with their CRJ200s at one of the boarding gates in Fargo. The gate agent would back off the boarding bridge all the way into the stowed position. The crew would then fired up the engines at the gate and just taxi away in a slow tight right turn. With the stubby wings on the CRJ they had just enough room to get out. I guess they had to pay the FBO for each pushback.

 

[Art VanDelay]

1) I've never seen this as an approved procedure in US commercial aviation.

2) Don't hit the brakes!!

3) I've backed up a Cessna 310. Not easy to do without reverse, but possible.

We used to do it all the time with the MD-80s and DC-9s. You just haven't been around long enough.

 

[SkyDog58]

We used to do it all the time with the MD-80s and DC-9s. You just haven't been around long enough.

Yep. They were the most common aircraft to do it in.

 

[mscard88]

Valu Jet used to do it in ATL. Our company manual forbid us to do it. Tight turns in congested areas (like the SkyWest ex above) all the time. Seen the C-130J years ago at Oshkosh do it as a demo.

 

[James331]

Never that far, but I've done it in turboprops, not really that big of a deal as long as you have a spotter or a way of seeing behind you.

 

[flyingron]

I never knew the reason for the hatch over the pilot's seat was to you could see where you were going when taxiing backwards. I always thought it was for emergencies when the pilot turns to the copilot and says "I'm going for help, you stay here."

 

[jordane93]

 

[NoHeat]

As a pax 30 years ago, I experienced it often in the U.S.

Then about that time I flew on Lufthansa, and read in their seat-pocket magazine how they are proud of their industry-leading safety practices, and they would never reverse out of a gate unlike (sniff) other airlines.

Not long after that, I experienced pushbacks more often in the US.

 

[Larry in TN]

1) I've never seen this as an approved procedure in US commercial aviation.

Power-backs were standard procedure for American Airlines on the 727 and MD80s in the 1990s and earlier.

You have to have OpsSpecs approval for each aircraft type and each specific gate.

 

[Ted]

We did it in the Cheyenne. Not approved, but at an airport with self serve and too short of a hose...

 

[unsafervguy]

we were approved to do it in the ATR42/72 at several airports.

bob

 

[TomRV4]

I remember being on DC-9's several times back in the dark ages that did this procedure. Like the video shows, I recall the planes having to power up and move forward a small amount before the reversers were deployed and they started backing up.

Anyone know why the forward motion was necessary? Apparently some necessary operational procedure, but just wondering...

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Yeah. The tires tend to flat spot a small amount from the weight of the aircraft when it sits for awhile. The forward thrust was to allow the engines to spool up enough to get off the flat spots before going into reverse. Apparently if you went straight to reverse it took too much thrust to overcome that.

 

[N3368K]

I've backed a DC-6 into a ramp corner parking space once following maintenance. Line guys were freaking out.

 

[weilke]

Why was this for the most part abandoned ?

A couple of reasons I could think of are noise, FOD risk, reverser cycles.

 

[flyingron]

In addition to FOD, you can have some fun if you've got icy conditions. One of the contributing factors to the Palm 90 crash was the crew's use of reverse thrust in an attempt to power back, even though such was known even at the time to be problematic.

 

[timwinters]

We watched a couple of crop dusters back INTO their parking spot at Gaston's. I believe that was just last year. @Greg Bockelman...wasn't it?

 

[Ted]

Yeah. The tires tend to flat spot a small amount from the weight of the aircraft when it sits for awhile. The forward thrust was to allow the engines to spool up enough to get off the flat spots before going into reverse. Apparently if you went straight to reverse it took too much thrust to overcome that.

Reverse thrust on a jet provides a fraction of the thrust that the same amount of power (N1) would otherwise, I think roughly 10%. This makes sense as you aren't pushing the air completely forward (it's usually mostly up and a bit forward). It also depends on what kind of thrust reverser setup you have. Some have clamshell reversers, which basically create a "V" shape that blocks all exhaust/fan outlet. Some have translating nacelle reversers, which only redirect the thrust from the fan, so the thrust from the core is still pushing thrust aft.

Clamshell reversers are more typically on smaller jets, especially bizjets, and you typically see them getting tested on taxi out. The translating cowl reversers are typically found on larger engines. If you watch a 737 on landing you'll see a translating cowl. Also E170/190.

Reverse on turboprops I find is very efficient.

 

[Skip Miller]

Valu Jet used to do it in ATL.

American MD-80s did it very frequently, if not all the time, back in the day at DFW. -Skip

 

[X3 Skier]

We had to demo backing up in dirt on the C-17 flight test program. The airplane disappeared in a cloud of dust. Lots of pics of backup on YouTube on concrete though.

Cheers

 

[BigBadLou]

Cool video. Nothing new using beta. Though the kid on top of the fuselage is a nice touch. No need for ground marshals.

That field looks very familiar, where is that?

 

[Mtns2Skies]

There was a video a while ago of an air tractor that reverses itself into a hangar I can't seem to find.

 

[Everskyward]

Why was this for the most part abandoned ?

A couple of reasons I could think of are noise, FOD risk, reverser cycles.

A couple more reasons are you can't see where you are going, and if you hit the brakes too hard you could end up on the tail. Some airplanes have a limitation stating no backing using reverse thrust.

I saw a King Air back up using reverse thrust. I was sitting in the cockpit getting the airplane ready when I hear all kinds of engine/prop noise. The airplane across from me is sliding towards our airplane (the ramp was icy). They were trying to turn out of the parking space but they were neither turning nor stopping. They put it in reverse and I see it backing toward a post, since they were now at an angle to their original parking position. Then they stop and try the turn again, this time successfully. I sat there looking in amazement.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Power-backs were standard procedure for American Airlines on the 727 and MD80s in the 1990s and earlier.

You have to have OpsSpecs approval for each aircraft type and each specific gate.

I remember doing it sitting in the back of an American F100 in the late 90's

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Clamshell reversers are more typically on smaller jets, especially bizjets, and you typically see them getting tested on taxi out. The translating cowl reversers are typically found on larger engines. If you watch a 737 on landing you'll see a translating cowl. Also E170/190.

Not if your flying a -200 737, those still had clamshells. The CRJ-200 might as well not even have reserve, for how long it takes to produce any significant thrust.

 

[Ted]

Not if your flying a -200 737, those still had clamshells. The CRJ-200 might as well not even have reserve, for how long it takes to produce any significant thrust.

Good point on the 737-200, I should have mentioned I was referring specifically to the CFM56 powered variants.

I forget the setup the CRJ-200 had. I didn't work as much on the CF34-3s as the -8s and -10s. All three were very different engines.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Good point on the 737-200, I should have mentioned I was referring specifically to the CFM56 powered variants.

I forget the setup the CRJ-200 had. I didn't work as much on the CF34-3s as the -8s and -10s. All three were very different engines.

It's not a product of the engine, just the fact that the reverse system is actuated by bleed air versus a hydraulic deployment.

 

[LDJones]

Not if your flying a -200 737, those still had clamshells. The CRJ-200 might as well not even have reserve, for how long it takes to produce any significant thrust.

I don't know. While the -200's reversers take longer to deploy than than the -700/-900 (which are hydraulic), once deployed they have pretty good stopping power. They could (and have) back you out of a gate, it's prohibited by my company.

 

[FlyingTiger]

Cool video. Nothing new using beta. Though the kid on top of the fuselage is a nice touch. No need for ground marshals.

That field looks very familiar, where is that?

Nelson Municipal Airport, Nelson, B.C., Canada.

It is located along the coast of Kootenay Lake

 

[Bill]

We used to do it all the time with the MD-80s and DC-9s. You just haven't been around long enough.

Yup, I remember being on those and 727s that backed from the gate.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I don't know. While the -200's reversers take longer to deploy than than the -700/-900 (which are hydraulic), once deployed they have pretty good stopping power. They could (and have) back you out of a gate, it's prohibited by my company.

Of course, but by the time you start getting thrust, if you are flying the plane the way Bombardier designed it, you've already scrubbed a bunch of speed with the wheel brakes. But like everything, they fixed it when the moved on to the bigger CRJs