Personal Minimums, Marginal VFR

[AA5Bman]

I’d love to see a thread about marginal VFR flying.

I’ve been realizing lately that I generally only fly when the weather is basically perfect. That’s partly because where I live there are only two or three common weather patterns: very good VFR and totally disaster storm, with not much “flyable marginal” weather in between. IFR flight around here involves very high MEAs with almost year-round freezing/ice potential, so there is basically never flyable IMC without FIKI, so that’s out, too.

At least partly due to the above phenomenon, I realized lately that I have become a bit of a fair weather flyer, and - especially when it relates to flying to other destinations (usually coastal) where there are saturated air masses, overcast, drizzle, but otherwise very doable VFR flying - I have scrubbed a lot of trips that probably were totally doable. For example, I realized it had been years since the last time I had flown through even a little bit of rain, and if I were a little more comfortable with other weather patterns I’d get a lot more utility out of my plane.

So, lately I’ve been looking for marginal weather to fly in, and when a recent storm came through, I jumped at the chance to go fly. It was something like 900 scattered, 2500 overcast, areas of light to moderate rain. I spent most of the flight at about 1500 AGL, dodging clouds, aiming for the areas of light showers, and flew a 1.5 hour lazy loop around our local area. It was great. Very different from my normal flying, a couple spots that put me on edge where the horizon started to blur and visibilities decreased significantly, but overall I was surprised how comfortable I was (I’m sure this is partly because it was my local area and because I’m not a newbie - been flying more than 20 years).

So. What are your thoughts on marginal VFR? What is safe boundary pushing vs. unsafe boundary pushing? How can you evaluate when you can trust ceiling and visibility reports - like, is it just 5 miles and 2500 OVC right over the airport and 0/0 everywhere else? What are your thoughts about light vs. moderate vs. heavy rain? Snow? Thunderstorms in the vicinity? How would you characterize the “good” marginal VFR weather in your area, and what limits and rules of thumb do you try to abide by when making the go/no-go decision?

 

[Matthew]

Is the forecast for conditions to improve or get worse?

Around here, MVFR can be from lowered visibility as often as ceiling. Many times that haze lets you have a decent visibility looking at a downward angle but not when looking straight out horizontally. I don’t like the idea of of looking down instead of looking around.

If it’s a low clg, we have radio towers around these parts that can be 500’+ tall.

I avoid that kind of MVFR because I can.

 

[crash7]

The answer is “it depends”. I’m instrument rated, but for VFR I’m also pretty fair weather flier. A week after getting my instrument ticket I broke my “personal minimums” and launched into a 700-800 OVC. Why? Briefing showed it was clear at my destination, it was scattered just 20 miles after leaving home and forecast to be clear at home when I was going to return.
So, we just have to look at all the info/variables to determine stuff like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MauleSkinner]

I’m going to go an entirely different direction and say that the lower the altitudes and visibilities that you fly in, the better your pilotage and your ability to fix your position on the chart needs to be.

 

[bbchien]

And the slower your stall speed needs to be. mVFR at 105 kts is very differnet form mVFR at 75 kts. There's just more warning and reaction time available.

Non IFR mVFR in a Baron? fuggedaboudit.

 

[MauleSkinner]

And the slower your stall speed needs to be. mVFR at 105 kts is very differnet form mVFR at 75 kts. There's just more warning and reaction time available.

Not to mention processing speed…my brain can easily follow a sectional chart at 100 knots, but by 135 or so I’m noticeably missing stuff.

 

[WDD]

For me, if flying locally for fun, then VFR is only in VMC/non MVFR weather. Only exception is pattern work.

If flying X Country, always file IFR plan regardless of weather. I'll move flight times around to avoid IMC/IFR conditions when landing, with MVFR as the minimum "yep, I'll go". IF weather at landing airport goes to IFR when I land, I'm still OK - I have some margin. Want to stay well ahead of LIFR.

Flying VFR in MVFR weather? Nope. As busy as it is around here, besides me getting caught in clouds lord knows I don't want a Melvin popping out of a cloud right in front of me. As well, around here especially in the summer regardless of the TAF it can get more cloudy real quick. Besides, it's turbulent enough in the summer time and I don't need more bouncing to deal with.

 

[AA5Bman]

I’m going to go an entirely different direction and say that the lower the altitudes and visibilities that you fly in, the better your pilotage and your ability to fix your position on the chart needs to be.

I agree - it is much harder to stay oriented and on top of situational awareness when your attention is broken by navigating around clouds and the visibility doesn’t let you see normal landmarks. Redundant/overlapping use of navigational systems helps.

 

[texasclouds]

How far am I flying? How familiar am I with the area? High or low density traffic? Forecasted to improve? Which aircraft? Passengers with me? Risk vs reward matrix?

 

[MauleSkinner]

I agree - it is much harder to stay oriented and on top of situational awareness when your attention is broken by navigating around clouds and the visibility doesn’t let you see normal landmarks. Redundant/overlapping use of navigational systems helps.

More specifically, it’s much harder to stay legal and/or not hit stuff if you don’t know where you are relative to the “stuff”.

 

[Rick A]

What are your thoughts on marginal VFR? What is safe boundary pushing vs. unsafe boundary pushing? How can you evaluate when you can trust ceiling and visibility reports - like, is it just 5 miles and 2500 OVC right over the airport and 0/0 everywhere else? What are your thoughts about light vs. moderate vs. heavy rain? Snow? Thunderstorms in the vicinity? How would you characterize the “good” marginal VFR weather in your area, and what limits and rules of thumb do you try to abide by when making the go/no-go decision?

I would need more information before answering your questions and offering any opinions:

Are you instrument rated? What type of aircraft are you flying? If instrument rated, how much IMC have you flown in your 20 years of flying, and if any, how much recently?

Do you have a reliable autopilot, at least a wing-leveler?

 

[AA5Bman]

I would need more information before answering your questions and offering any opinions:

Are you instrument rated? What type of aircraft are you flying? If instrument rated, how much IMC have you flown in your 20 years of flying, and if any, how much recently?

Do you have a reliable autopilot, at least a wing-leveler?

Well, I didn’t really mean to direct the conversation towards what should *my* personal minimums be - I’m more interested to learn about other people’s/regions weather patterns, experience, and decision making criteria - but as long as you’re asking, I’m probably 1200 hours TT, instrument rated but with limited IMC experience (primarily because my area does not have non-FIKI instrument conditions… ever, flying a non-instrument certified turbo 206 with no autopilot.

 

[Ventucky Red]

In looking at your weather description, I would say, the hell with Marginal VFR, and move to the sunbelt...

With that, my personal take is that Marginal VFR is on the border line with scud running. Why would you want to tempt fate. Or, maybe it is time to dust off you IFR rating and get some instructor sponsored training

 

[WDD]

Curious - where do you fly where you have Ice IMC so prevalent?

BTW - I’d upgrade that plane to IFR certified/flyable and get your IR back to current. Sounds like where you fly you might need a pop up IFR plan at any time. You’d have it all at the ready just in case.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I do not seek out MVFR. However, since my aircraft is VFR-only and I take a few long XC trips every year, I find it anyways. A few lessons I have learned:

1. Don't do it at night.
2. Don't do it in the mountains.
3. Use ADS-B to constantly assess conditions ahead of you. Nexrad is good but be aware of delay. Tune in radio to next ATIS/AWOS on your path.
4. Have multiple backup Nav devices.
5. Use EFB for early warning of towers and obstacles.

 

[AA5Bman]

Curious - where do you fly where you have Ice IMC so prevalent?

BTW - I’d upgrade that plane to IFR certified/flyable and get your IR back to current. Sounds like where you fly you might need a pop up IFR plan at any time. You’d have it all at the ready just in case.

Mountain West. Our MEAs are typically around 11,000 or higher. The only safe IMC I get is the once-in-a-blue moon IMC in smoke during the summer. For instance, during this rain event recently, with overcast at, say, 6,000’ MSL, it was something like 3 degrees C at 4,500 so to climb to an MEA of 11,000…. Another example - I once spotted weather that I thought would allow for practice IFR locally because the freezing level was at maybe 7,000 feet and we had low clouds down to, say, 4,000, and the first thing they did was clear me to 9,000…. Now, it is spring and while it does get hot during the summer and potentially above freezing at 11,000, but during the summer we never get saturated air masses, overcast and drizzle - it’s dry as a bone and any available moisture goes straight to major thunderstorms.

 

[WDD]

Sounds like fun flying! Check me out on this though - FIKI is used to get you out of / through Ice as fast as possible, it's not used to cruise in ice. Same thinking on suggestion to get the plane IFR certified. Not to do long X Country in IFR, but to get you out of / through a sudden IMC. Just a thought to chew on.

 

[midlifeflyer]

In looking at your weather description, I would say, the hell with Marginal VFR, and move to the sunbelt...

With that, my personal take is that Marginal VFR is on the border line with scud running. Why would you want to tempt fate. Or, maybe it is time to dust off you IFR rating and get some instructor sponsored training

I'll raise your personal take with mine: Marginal VFR is not "on the border line" with scud running. Unless you are staying in the pattern to practice landings or some other training reason, Marginal VFR is scud running.

Most uncomfortable I've been in an airplane I was flying (including losing power in the clouds over the Rockies) was the one time I let my instrument currency lapse and ended up flying a marginal VFR cross country to get home. An IFR flight so easy that I could have taken a nap (with no autopilot) because a butt-clenching VFR flight.

 

[robin ardoin]

If doing a local hop in familiar territory, 2500'AGL is my minimum as there are 1800'+ twrs around. For cross country flights, I like 3500' or over so I will file IFR. My VFR flights are very limited for ceilings/bkn layers less than 3500'. Unless there is convective activity or dead of winter, usually IFR is no problem on the gulf coast.

 

[Rick A]

Well, I didn’t really mean to direct the conversation towards what should *my* personal minimums be - I’m more interested to learn about other people’s/regions weather patterns, experience, and decision making criteria - but as long as you’re asking, I’m probably 1200 hours TT, instrument rated but with limited IMC experience (primarily because my area does not have non-FIKI instrument conditions… ever, flying a non-instrument certified turbo 206 with no autopilot.

Living out in the mountainous west I'd say you're between a rock and a hard place in marginal VFR weather, depending upon what the weather is doing at that time in the valley where an airport is located.

If accidentally entering IMC the tried and true option of powering up, climbing while keeping wings level, pointing the plane towards a rock free area, announcing your predicament to ATC (if possible) and getting on top (or VMC between layers) may not be a possibility.

Considering the above, my minimums would be to remain visual, be prepared for an immediate 180, and always have an out that's not somewhere up above.

I'd probably want to keep at least 2 to 3 miles of visibility, except when transversing beneath a clearly defined isolated light rain shower where you can clearly see better visibility outside or around it... and if rock free, go around it.

 

[k9medic]

All depends on risk tolerance and area fam.

The other day I shot an approach and broke out at 800' with a 26kt cross wind. Departed special VFR (800' and 10nm vis) and flew at 500' for about 15 miles until I came out from underneath the layer. Cruised at 220kts GS back to the house and didn't have to mess with approach after I cleared the airport airspace.

In the Bahamas, I think nothing of it. As long as I don't hit a sailboat mast I am good.

 

[AA5Bman]

Hmmmm. For the sake of a more interesting conversation, can we assume that everyone is aware of the safety risks related to VFR into IMC and assume, for the sake of argument, that IFR flying is not an option or at least not the point of the discussion?

In that context, what are *you* comfortable with?

We also may need to better define what constitutes “marginal”, as one person’s marginal may be another person’s good VFR, and yet a third person’s absolute no-go weather.

For instance, surely there are people who fly VFR in what I would consider “marginal” VFR all the time. Consider the pilot trainee in the Seattle area- they’ve probably flown in more lowered ceilings and rain before getting their license than I have in my entire life.

For clarity, the things I might see in a forecast that start making me feel it will be marginal include: forecasted ceilings below, say, 5,000 over valley floors, reduced visibilities of probably 6 miles or less, forecasted rain, thunderstorms in the vicinity, and - with the intent to set winds aside as a kind of special case in the mountains - winds above 25 kts at 10,000’ (ridge tops). Fog is a major winter condition, but usually pretty binary: if fog then no flying. But how about a 3,000 foot ceiling, forecasted light to moderate rain, and 5 mile visibility? That’s a more interesting discussion.

 

[cowman]

I feel like there are way too many variables just to have a blanket set of rules for everyone. New pilots ought to have pretty high personal minimums. Once you've been flying long enough to have had a few experience and if you have an instrument rating I think you can start to consider pushing things..

In addition to knowing my own experience and my own aircraft here are the questions I'd be asking to make a go/no go decision.
How familiar am I with the area- the traffic, terrain, weather patterns, etc? Remember that IFR aircraft may not be on the CTAF and flying low you may not show up on ATC's radar.
What's the weather forecast and what's the trend in actual weather- is it improving or getting worse?
What's my escape plan if conditions worsen? Ok sure you can call ATC and get a pop-up IFR clearance and that's good... but are airports within fuel range going to be above your IFR minimums?

Normally if I'm trying to go somewhere and it's marginal VFR and I'm going to file and try to get on top. If I have a short hop between nearby airports I'll depart under 2000' or slightly lower ceilings but that's always been in areas I'm very familliar with and with the pop-up IFR clearance as a get out of trouble option. I also do like flying just off the coast of FL under relatively low scattered layers that put me around 1,000agl or a bit less above the ocean with scattered showers in the area. However in that case I'm on flight following with my wingtip following the coastline and blue sky visible above the clouds and again able to get an IFR clearance if needed.

 

[Dana]

As others have said it depends on many factors. My home field is 8 miles from the shore, and it's not unusual to have less than 1000' overcast over the field and have it be CAVU only a couple of miles north. That can be no problem in the morning or with an offshore breeze, or a really bad idea in the evening or with an onshore breeze... so familiarity with the local patterns is a must.

My flying is all low and slow, so a 1500' ceiling doesn't bother me for local flying or even short XC over a known route, again depending on the forecast. I've happily flown an ultralight to an airport 20 miles away with 700' scattered under 1000' broken, and when I was flying paramotors from an airport right next to the beach it wasn't unusual to fly under a 300' ceiling (the field had no instrument approaches).

Traveling farther, I like to see at least 2500'; my usual cruise altitude is around 1000-1500' AGL. But that will depend on terrain and where the alternates are along the route.

 

[sarangan]

I would need more information before answering your questions and offering any opinions:

Are you instrument rated? What type of aircraft are you flying? If instrument rated, how much IMC have you flown in your 20 years of flying, and if any, how much recently?

Do you have a reliable autopilot, at least a wing-leveler?

About 1/3 of all VFR into IMC accidents involve instrument rated pilots. So it is not about being rated - its about being on an IFR flight plan and being current and equipped for IFR. Where an instrument rating helps is the ability to call up ATC and get a clearance when things aren't going well.

 

[WDD]

Where an instrument rating helps is the ability to call up ATC and get a clearance when things aren't going well.

I’d add “proficiency and currency”. I’d guess that those IR pilots flying VFR into IMC were all out of being current.

Calling ATC is a good start. Being able to not loose control in IMC is the crucial part.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I do not seek out MVFR. However, since my aircraft is VFR-only and I take a few long XC trips every year, I find it anyways. A few lessons I have learned:

1. Don't do it at night.
2. Don't do it in the mountains.
3. Use ADS-B to constantly assess conditions ahead of you. Nexrad is good but be aware of delay. Tune in radio to next ATIS/AWOS on your path.
4. Have multiple backup Nav devices.
5. Use EFB for early warning of towers and obstacles.

And let’s be realistic. I’d add having a plan in the event of inadvertent IMC.

I’d add “proficiency and currency”. I’d guess that those IR pilots flying VFR into IMC were all out of being current.

Or weren’t equipped for IFR, or the trip couldn’t be done IFR, or any number of reasons unrelated to proficiency and currency.

Calling ATC is a good start. Being able to not loose control in IMC is the crucial part.

This would fall under “proficiency and currency,” and as always, my recommendation for pilots who aren’t proficient on instruments is to be proficient at letting the airplane’s inherent stability do the hard work.

 

[StraightnLevel]

For me, MVFR means "File an IFR plan or scrap the flight".

IMO, MVFR exists to allow a VFR flight land when things are getting bad...but not quite yet. It also exists to allow a VFR take-off as the weather is dissipating or moving away from your planned flightpath.

JMO, YMMV....

 

[MauleSkinner]

For me, MVFR means

Which is part of the difficulty of this discussion. It at least USED to mean something very specific…1000-3000 foot ceilings and/or 3-5 miles visibility.

Regs and airspace allowing, there are very few places that I wouldn’t be comfortable flying VFR in those conditions.

 

[Clip4]

One of the situations I have encountered over the years is an XC pilot on a fuel stop evaluating WX. I get the question, are you a CFI and then a request to evaluate the forecast and reported WX to offer an opinion if the flight should be continued.

My response is always “You know your levels of experience and proficiency and I don’t. If you are concerned about safety continuing flight, you shouldn’t”. Same goes for all MVFR flying.

 

[Rick A]

About 1/3 of all VFR into IMC accidents involve instrument rated pilots. So it is not about being rated - its about being on an IFR flight plan and being current and equipped for IFR. Where an instrument rating helps is the ability to call up ATC and get a clearance when things aren't going well.

Flying in marginal VMC conditions has the potential of becoming IMC, whether you're instrument rated, equipped and current, or not.

In the context of asking if he's rated, I was more interested in learning if the OP is able to keep the wings level and conduct some basic hand-flying skills to keep the wings level, do a 180, or climb without losing control (in an emergency situation). My assumption is that most instrument rated pilots have a better chance of surviving an inadvertent IMC encounter than a low time VFR only PP, whether they use the rating or not.

Hmmmm. For the sake of a more interesting conversation, can we assume that everyone is aware of the safety risks related to VFR into IMC and assume, for the sake of argument, that IFR flying is not an option or at least not the point of the discussion?

In that context, what are *you* comfortable with?

We also may need to better define what constitutes “marginal”, as one person’s marginal may be another person’s good VFR, and yet a third person’s absolute no-go weather.

For instance, surely there are people who fly VFR in what I would consider “marginal” VFR all the time. Consider the pilot trainee in the Seattle area- they’ve probably flown in more lowered ceilings and rain before getting their license than I have in my entire life.

For clarity, the things I might see in a forecast that start making me feel it will be marginal include: forecasted ceilings below, say, 5,000 over valley floors, reduced visibilities of probably 6 miles or less, forecasted rain, thunderstorms in the vicinity, and - with the intent to set winds aside as a kind of special case in the mountains - winds above 25 kts at 10,000’ (ridge tops). Fog is a major winter condition, but usually pretty binary: if fog then no flying. But how about a 3,000 foot ceiling, forecasted light to moderate rain, and 5 mile visibility? That’s a more interesting discussion.

IMO, 5000' and 6 miles is a beautiful VFR day. If the forecast is turns sour, (T-Storms, rain, etc.) you see it developing, then simply switch to your plan B, or C, or whatever you need. Easy enough to navigate around if not widespread.

I'm a believer that taking a flight towards the destination and taking a look is not inherently dangerous in the least. If the view up ahead is trending worse, don't go there. The key is turning around or landing somewhere short of the destination to regroup. Or just go home. Don't push it.

Thunderstorms are usually forecast anywhere a moist unstable airmass could be ripe for development. If pilots stayed on the ground when T-Storms were in a summer forecast there would be very little GA flying going on. Summertime in the east the forecast usually warns of the possibility of storms developing in the afternoons then into the evenings. Isolated, or clusters are usually easy to navigate around.

It's easy to land, turn around, or deviate. I prefer to stay low cloud beneath bases which are generally around 3500' to 5000' with a 3+ mile visibility. Tall towers are the threat, not the weather. ALWAYS remain visual. VFR and picking up flight advisories, yes. Bumpy and hot, yes. Safe, yes.

 

[brcase]

where do you fly where you have Ice IMC so prevalent?

IFR flight around here involves very high MEAs with almost year-round freezing/ice potential, so there is basically never flyable IMC without FIKI, so that’s out, too.

Agree, I tell people getting instrument rating in Idaho, Montana, Colorado areas (some Oregon, Washington, others) for instrument training we spend 40 hours flying under the hood so maybe once or twice a year we fly maybe 3 minutes in the clouds usually departing or arriving.

One morning few years ago was in the FBO waiting for the Fog to lift so I could depart in a Non-IFR Citabria. I probably would have departed as soon as it got to an 800 ft ceiling and I could have stayed in Class G until the VFR conditions less than 5 miles away over flat terrain I was familiar with. It did have a Turn and bank if that plan didn't work, as I knew VFR conditions were less than 5 miles away. I drove through the VFR conditions the way to the airport and the nearby AWOS was confirming it was still that way. Plus I expected the fog to burn off as it warmed up.

I was joined in the FBO by about 5 other pilots waiting to depart. They were headed to Oshkosh also waiting for the fog to lift. The rest of the flight from Idaho looked like great VFR conditions. If I hadn't been waiting to depart I consider seeing if any of them wanted to pay me to fly their them and their IFR plane(s) to the next airport 13 miles away vs waiting.

flying a non-instrument certified turbo 206 with no autopilot

Would be curious what a 206's needs to at least be minimum IFR capable. sure maybe not GPS or even ILS Approaches, but maybe a VOR/localizer approach. Biggest hang up is usually most but not all approaches require DME/GPS(Distance). But knowing in a pinch you could file IFR and go somewhere to VFR conditions or a IFR approach (icing conditions permitting) can really open up your possibilities for flying in MVFR conditions. That is the backup plan only if staying VFR becomes not an option any longer, maintain VFR is Plan A. Being careful to not get cornered into having to going IFR should be the plan. But I have seen and heard of IFR conditions forming around an aircraft or closing off a planed exit route. So far I have never had that happen to me, but I plan as if it could.

The other thing I tell instrument students in the NW Mountain area is, they probably won't really file IFR (at least because the need to) very often or actually rarely until they start flying high performance equipment that can handle the icing conditions usually present here in IMC conditions, and then they will probably be flying in class A airspace anyway. But they may do a lot more VFR flights that they wouldn't have done without an instrument rating and IFR capable aircraft, just because they have more options if the inadverntantly go IMC.

***************************************
The biggest issue with flying in MVFR conditions is there usually just isn't the much reason why you need or want to.
Local flights are can be pretty easy knowing you are only a few miles from a safe landing area.
Cross countries are a lot more challenging, sure if only short section of the flight is MVFR in the right locations that can work, but then Mountain area those MVFR areas are usually in the Mountains where you don't want to taking any chances with inadvertently going IMC. Then how comfortable are you with aborting the flight an turning around. Often Cross countries have timelines, just going to see if you can make it with the option of turning around often isn't very realistic.
Canceled my Cross country this weekend not so much because I thought I might have to turn around. Would not have been and issue if I didn't go. But the longer term forecast for returning wasn't very positive either and My passenger and I both would have needed to get back to work today. Turns out that was a good decision I ended up driving. I think 98% I chance I would have been able to maintain good VFR all the way there. Probably not so much for the return flight, or more like no chance at all I would have been able to fly back yesterday afternoon.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[brcase]

Flying in marginal VMC conditions has the potential of becoming IMC, whether you're instrument rated, equipped and current, or not.

In the context of asking if he's rated, I was more interested in learning if the OP is able to keep the wings level and conduct some basic hand-flying skills to keep the wings level, do a 180, or climb without losing control (in an emergency situation). My assumption is that most instrument rated pilots have a better chance of surviving an inadvertent IMC encounter than a low time VFR only PP, whether they use the rating or not.



IMO, 5000' and 6 miles is a beautiful VFR day. If the forecast is turns sour, (T-Storms, rain, etc.) you see it developing, then simply switch to your plan B, or C, or whatever you need. Easy enough to navigate around if not widespread.

I'm a believer that taking a flight towards the destination and taking a look is not inherently dangerous in the least. If the view up ahead is trending worse, don't go there. The key is turning around or landing somewhere short of the destination to regroup. Or just go home. Don't push it.

Thunderstorms are usually forecast anywhere a moist unstable airmass could be ripe for development. If pilots stayed on the ground when T-Storms were in a summer forecast there would be very little GA flying going on. Summertime in the east the forecast usually warns of the possibility of storms developing in the afternoons then into the evenings. Isolated, or clusters are usually easy to navigate around.

It's easy to land, turn around, or deviate. I prefer to stay low cloud beneath bases which are generally around 3500' to 5000' with a 3+ mile visibility. Tall towers are the threat, not the weather. ALWAYS remain visual. VFR and picking up flight advisories, yes. Bumpy and hot, yes. Safe, yes.

yes surprising in these kinds of conditions how often you land wait 20 minutes and then it is fine to continue on.

 

[Rcmutz]

I’m with Rick. Here in the Midwest, I’d be comfortable with 2500 AGL and 5 plus miles visibility local flying. It is the visibilities that worry me the most. I have done pattern work with ceilings at 1500AGL. I would not go XC with that low a ceiling. Want at least 3000 especially over the mountains heading to the east coast from Ohio.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

I'll depart marginal if I'm flying into better conditions or if there's going to be obvious improvement. I no longer do the reverse where I take off and fly into an airport that is marginal hoping I can get in at the last minute.

I will admit I've done that a few times I don't do it anymore. At my current knowledge and skill level I can look at at some flights I have made in the past and go that was on the edge of stupid.

I've now been pretty conditioned before a flight to ask myself how this is going to look in the newspaper.

 

[cowman]

I've now been pretty conditioned before a flight to ask myself how this is going to look in the newspaper.

Or what will the POA peanut gallery say about it... silly as it is that might have a bigger psychological impact on some people than the whole risk of dying thing.

 

[flyingron]

You just have to watch out if you develop secondary marginal VFR minimums.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Below 1500 is scud running to me. I won't leave the pattern unless it is a very short hop to a known location or am confident it improves in my direction of travel.

Between 1500 and 2500 is marginal. I usually go, but I exercise more caution. Large towers are a particular concern below 2K.

Above 2500 is comfortable in almost all circumstances.

Watch out for gradually rising terrain. That has snuck up on me a few times.

 

[Ventucky Red]

I've now been pretty conditioned before a flight to ask myself how this is going to look in the newspaper.

Here lies a pilot who chased the sky too low,
Trusting luck when wisdom whispered “no.”
The clouds closed in, the ground rose fast—
He flew by heart, and that was the last...

Would be curious what a 206's needs to at least be minimum IFR capable.

Just about every 206 I have seen has been well appointed with IFR capability... unless of course, it has some big tundra tires "on er.."

 

[Half Fast]

At least partly due to the above phenomenon, I realized lately that I have become a bit of a fair weather flyer, and - especially when it relates to flying to other destinations (usually coastal) where there are saturated air masses, overcast, drizzle, but otherwise very doable VFR flying - I have scrubbed a lot of trips that probably were totally doable. For example, I realized it had been years since the last time I had flown through even a little bit of rain, and if I were a little more comfortable with other weather patterns I’d get a lot more utility out of my plane.

Since retiring, I've become, if not truly more conservative, at least less willing to fly in "not-so-fun" conditions. When I was working, my time to fly was more constrained, but now that I'm joyfully unemployed, if weather looks iffy one day I don't hesitate much to wait a day or two.

This is especially true for local sight-seeing. Those flights are purely for fun, so even if I could fly but there's a low ceiling and bumpy air below it, I just shrug my shoulders and say "Not now."

For travel, I'm more willing to push it when a flight is to get somewhere and not just for kicks. Flying along in bumpy air at 2000' under gray skies for a couple of hours isn't itself fun, but I can do it safely and will to reach a destination. But in those situations, I make sure to stay close to airports where I can land if things go too far awry, and I'll often have an alternative route that might be longer but gets me around the weather. I'll also use Flight Following and regularly check weather with my EFB and monitor weather stations en route.