texasclouds
En-Route
You misspelled Bonanza!
Pattern Wars - The New FAA Answer - Or Not
- Thread starter Daleandee
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You misspelled Bonanza!
Pinecone
En-Route
Actually they can and do run red lights.
No, they do no blow through the light like it does not exist, but they do slow down, make sure others have stopped, then continue through the red light.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
I seriously doubt that Ambulances do not go through red lights in your state. And I seriously hope that is not true, for anyone who needs urgent care sake.
MonkeyClaw
Pre-takeoff checklist
Isn't there some rule regarding making pattern calls in the 'airport environment'? Like, you need to be in the airport environment before make calls regarding the pattern? This would mean a 10-mile final call is really a position call, and not a pattern call (upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, final). I swear I read it in an accident analysis or a legal analysis from the AOPA.
Morgan3820
En-Route
Just finished the class. Our local group feels that if time is that important, call a medivac. Getting into a crash does no one any good. Your place may think differently
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
That makes no sense. You’re 3 miles from the hospital and going to wait for medivac rather than go through a light with sirens blaring and lights flashing?
I still doubt that, but I’m glad I don’t live there if it’s true.
according to this, there are half a dozen specific callouts where ambulances are exempted from the rules and a section specifying that local authorities can allow for more exceptions as they see fit. https://www.ncleg.gov/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/ByChapter/Chapter_20.pdf
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Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
Need help understanding this. Advise if I’ve over-redacted.
Does it say 10mins before taxi, start making calls?
It’s from 9.5.
Does it say 10mins before taxi, start making calls?
It’s from 9.5.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's what it says. It says that. That's what it says. Yep. Uh huh.
I swear, I think that the folks who write regs and ACs have never seen an airplane, much less operated one.
Country Flier
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CFL
Your profile says North Carolina...from the NC motor vehicle code:
"When appropriate warning signals are being given, as provided in this subsection, an emergency vehicle may proceed through an intersection or other place when the emergency vehicle is facing a stop sign, a yield sign, or a traffic light which is emitting a flashing strobe signal or a beam of steady or flashing red light."
And also:
"Emergency vehicles. As used in this subdivision, the term "emergency vehicle" means any law enforcement, fire, police, or other government vehicle, and any public and privately owned ambulance or emergency service vehicle, when responding to an emergency."
wanttaja
En-Route
The right of way rules were written BEFORE AIRCRAFT RADIOS were common. What you say on the radio has nothing to do with whether you're actually on "final" or not.
I can see the need for high-performance aircraft to be further out on final than I would prefer. Personally, I do the full 45 entry each time in my 80-knot airplane. I'm not impressed when someone feels they have to fly a straight-in to save time....
Dave Gecko on AvWeb had a perfect statement: “Negotiations are not over just because you’ve called 'straight-in'.”
Ron Wanttaja
Daleandee
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Dale Andee
Back in the day (a number of moons ago) while piloting an ambulance, we were instructed that the rule was we were to "stop & go" at a red traffic light. But we were also made to understand that we did not need to "dead stop" once we verified the intersection was clear and all traffic was yielding. I'm certain the rules have changed but the point was to get where you were going quickly, yet safely. Running over someone on the way to save another was not considered very cool ...
dbahn
Pattern Altitude
Morgan3820
En-Route
Then you probably don't want to live in my area. We are semi-rural. I you have a serious chest grabber, you are going to be, at best, warm dead when we show up. We will do compressions and transport but your brain has been oxygen deprived for more than 4 minutes, so...organ donor. My local hospital is 45 minutes from my service area. It is a level 3 trauma center (second lowest) A level 1 trauma center is a 20 minute flight. If we think that it may be bad,(car accident, gunshot) we put the medivac on standby alert. The patient can be at a level 1 trauma center before we can drive to the nearby level 3. If the patient is not that bad off, then there is no need to bust a gut. If it is an ischemic stoke, there is a couple hour window. Again no need to run lights. If it is a hemorrhagic stroke. Unless you are in the hospital when it happens and the neurosurgeon is available, your are an organ donor. So for my area and situation, it does make sense, at least to me.
And I agree that we may do a slow roll through a light if all cars yield. Most do but they are not required to. There are DB out there who have not. The Boo Boo bus driver is technically liable in an accident. Just going on what I am told is SOP in my county.
Ron has lots of experience with this stuff. I would like to hear his thoughts.
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Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
that is not what you said previously. I have no argument with that.
If you are on final, you are on final. The distance doesnt matter. Anyone else turning on to final has to insure they are free and clear of planes on final - regardless of radio calls or for that matter ADSB. Its not a pretty picture, but thats the way its written. And its not an issue at all until it is an issue. Then being on final gives you the absolute right of way (published) EXCEPT for one other occurrence - and I think thats the plane on the runway. But thats the only exception. there is no ROW for people in the pattern because they have not established being on final. So the 10 miles is arbitrary, because they just continue to fly in - and the 10 becomes 5 and becomes 3. They are on "final" - and if you arent on final before them - guess what - you've made an conflict/issue - and you'll not have the ROW. So ignore the 10 miles, or 100 miles. Just realize that the straight in on final has ROW. Its unfortunate, but that is the reality of the regs and several cases have been decided that way. As Dbahn also mentioned - the FAA talks out of the side of their mouth as to what they want you to do - but that isnt the way they have written the legislation. Notice all their circulars are not giving the ROW to the people in the pattern, or on base, or whatever. It is just "advised"
being on final is irrespective of radio calls. . .. before a plane turns to final - they need to insure they are not affecting a plane already on final. . and again, 10 miles means nothing, it isnt the "distance". Dont be caught up with the distance thing - its "being on final". Because 10 miles, 100 miles, or even 3 miles, if it isnt a factor - then its not a factor. Its only an issue when conflict arises, then the plane on final - has the legal ROW. Perhaps dead, but still has the legal ROW.
That’s how we do it here in the north. Unless there’s tower or traffic advisory, no entry by straight in, or by 45 into downwind.
wanttaja
En-Route
What matters, to me, is whether the pilot is close enough to landing where he or she must pay increasing attention to the flight of their own aircraft, and hence cannot be expected to be watching for other traffic with the usual intensity.
To me, a plane is on final when:
1. It is fully configured for landing...gear, flaps, prop, trim, etc.
2. It is flying at its final approach speed.
3. Overflying the threshold is imminent. I'd call it as ~60 seconds from touchdown.
Ironically, I don't even meet my own criteria. fixed gear, fixed prop, no flaps, no trim, and usually not trying to hit any particular speed.
The bad example here is the Watsonville midair... the twin pilot declaring "final" while ten miles away flying at Warp 6.
Ron Wanttaja
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I hope they turn off the lights and sirens so everybody else can go.
ateamer
Pattern Altitude
“Okeechobee traffic, Cessna 1234A, five south, we’ll be entering right base to 5.”
“All patterns at Okeechobee are left traffic.”
“But we’re coming from the south.”
“All patterns at Okeechobee are left traffic.”
“But we’re coming from the south.”
Daleandee
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Dale Andee
Here's a good example of FAA two sided mouth speaking. They like the use of "however" ...
"9.11.1 Straight-In Landings. The FAA discourages VFR straight-in approaches to landings due to increased risk of a midair collision. However, if a pilot chooses to
execute a straight-in approach for landing without entering the airport traffic pattern, the pilot should self-announce their position on the designated CTAF between 8 and approximately10 miles from the airport, and coordinate their straight-in approach and landing with other airport traffic. Pilots choosing to execute a straight-in approach do not have a particular priority over other aircraft in the traffic pattern and must comply with the provisions of § 91.113(g)."
One problem with this method could be limited visibility of traffic flying a missed approach, especially at airports with a high volume of training traffic. A high wing could be making a climbing right turn (opposite side of traffic pattern) on the missed approach while you in a low wing making a right turn to upwind could create a situation where two planes have a blind spot. The approach plate below shows the situation I'm describing where the initial turn to the right starts 400' below pattern altitude. At this airport, all of the approaches for the calm wind runway have similar missed approach procedures with a steady stream all day long. It's surprising how well airplanes can blend into the desert background making them almost invisible."Upwind" is not the same as "departure" so you wouldn't fly the upwind over the runway but rather offset to the side. So personally if I'm approaching from the opposite side of the pattern I''d rather fly upwind to get a good look at the pattern (and the windsock) then start the crosswind and downwind as soon as it looks clear. It adds all of about 60 seconds or less and both increases my visibility to other aircraft and my ability to spot other aircraft.
Also, on the upwind you are flying in the same direction as landing and departing traffic, so the closure rate between two aircraft is much slower. In the NORDO Cub it's not unusual for me to enter the upwind even if I'm in position to land straight it, because I'm more visible to other aircraft for a longer period of time and more turns, and I have more time to study the whole airport environment. At least NORDO aircraft know for sure that no one is listening to them.
Best practice would be to overfly the airport 500' above pattern altitude, then enter on a 45 at pattern altitude.
Exactly. And what does 91.113(g) state ? That aircraft on final have the right of way. So everything in the above paragraph means nothing in terms of legal right of way.
Daleandee
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Dale Andee
Even more confusion is added by the intermixing of FARs with ACs. Such things as eluded to earlier (post # 33) where the AC states, "Failure to follow this communication protocol has contributed to near midair collisions (NMAC), and as such could be considered careless and reckless operation of an aircraft" indicating that a pilot could possibly be found at fault for not obeying this AC on communication even though NORDO is allowed at non-towered fields.
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
And what about those doing pattern work vs full stop? Doesn’t take too many small planes doing tight pattern work before the pattern is full. I think some deference should be given to planes that actually need to land. This is especially important when landing on runways with no taxiway and full stop landings required a taxi back to exit the runway.
dbahn
Pattern Altitude
Just to be clear (and not nit-picking for the sake of nit-picking) but it's important to remember that even an aircraft on final has to give way to an aircraft in distress or a glider, etc. , neither of which may be transmitting (for perfectly valid reasons).
Sure, a balloon or airship is easy to see, but a glider often is not, and a pilot of an aircraft in distress may be tending to more important duties than announcing anything on the radio. Again, it comes down to see and avoid - ALWAYS, including the aircraft with the ROW.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yes but it’s a climbing right turn to 5900’, so by the time the plane is even halfway through the turn it should be above pattern altitude. Besides, isn’t ATC providing separation for IFR traffic?
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
I am just so glad the nontowered fields I fly to always seem to be populated by very friendly and accommodating pilots.
It’s always “Happy to extend so you can get in” and “Mind if I squeak in ahead of you?” and “I’ll break it off and rejoin to give you room”
I have NEVER heard ugliness, the places I frequent. (Texas, NM mainly)
This attitude is huge in making things safe AND pleasant!
It’s always “Happy to extend so you can get in” and “Mind if I squeak in ahead of you?” and “I’ll break it off and rejoin to give you room”
I have NEVER heard ugliness, the places I frequent. (Texas, NM mainly)
This attitude is huge in making things safe AND pleasant!
This is an uncontrolled airport with heavy student training, think slow climbing PA28s and C172s. @dbahn 's suggestion is a recipe for disaster, at least at this airport.
The relative vertical motion is the same as descending into a traffic pattern.
tspear
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Timothy
Nope. My Google Fu is failing me. But there was a case in the last few years were the NTSB and the FAA said the plane which declared a 10 mile final does not work. The case came out of a reckless citation given to a pilot (I forget the details of how the case came about). Final approach means within the airport environment. However (a favorite word of the FAA); both the FAA and the NTSB effectively stated we have no definition for what final means, but we know it when we see it.
Tim
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
One time I was forced to abandon the 45-degree entry by someone doing that, except it was in the daytime.
Brad W
Pattern Altitude
I don't believe that's totally true. I think maybe you're missing the part that implies....just because you might be lined up on a runway course....you aint in the pattern yet... and therefore you aint on final.
"However, if a pilot chooses to execute a straight-in approach for landing without entering the airport traffic pattern, the pilot should self-announce their position on the designated CTAF between 8 and approximately10 miles from the airport, and coordinate their straight-in approach and landing with other airport traffic."
As I see it, the big failing in the wording is the ambiguity in where exactly is that point when you are in the pattern and when you're not. Has to be ambiguous I suppose to a point when mixing aircraft of vastly different performance. I recon the best way to differentiate that point might be based on TPA..... the point at which at a normal decent rate you reach TPA.
just for spitballing an example, here's a screenshot of the final leg to 31 at KJGG
The intersection of a good base to final for a typical GA trainer might be about at the 1/2 mile point, over College Creek or the marsh
Now I have no idea how wide the pattern might need to be for a light jet flying a proper downwind/base/final pattern...but I'll spitball that it might be around that 1.4 to 1.5 mile point. OK, call it 2 miles. Perhaps outside that point you are approaching to land....but you are not in the pattern and therefore you are not on the "final leg" of the pattern.
My interpretation of the intent here is that somewhere outside that point you're not in the pattern, and therefore not yet established on final.... and therefore should be coordinating with other aircraft already established in the pattern....say for example turning base, etc....
And trying to use the ambiguity for your own selfish advantage and forcing the little cessna 150 to extend his base out to 1.5 mile+ puts that little trainer that was safely established IN the pattern to delay the downwind to base turn while at a low altitude very much outside the pattern and into an unsafe situation
Brad W
Pattern Altitude
I suppose that's where the "coordinate with" thing comes in..... and a little consideration and common courtesy on both ends of the exchange. It aint that hard, right?!?
a jet calls 3 or 4 mile straight in, meanwhile the cessna 150 doing stop and go's....having pulled throttle and lowered flaps abeam the numbers a few moments ago, already below TPA ...... so yeah, the cessna....not because the jet has the right away but because it's of polite deference, calls that they will extend the base turn to let the jet get on the ground, climbs back to TPA to increase his glide margin a bit....and then does his best to not extend too far, mucking it up for the others already established in the pattern behind....
dtuuri
Final Approach
Glad you affirmed my often-stated rebuttal to those who cite Canadian rules as a defense for mid-field cross-over entries directly to downwind. I.e., radio is required up North. YOU are someone who knows what you're talking about!
And, of course, all you Canadians have done is relocate the argument about entry technique to the other side of the airport.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
There aren’t a lot places I have seen where you actually have no ground radio advisory or tower, and there is a lot of traffic. Although the practice area near my base has many grass fields dotted all over, and that gets interesting once you switched to the field frequency and a student flies towards or over the area.Glad you affirmed my often-stated rebuttal to those who cite Canadian rules as a defense for mid-field cross-over entries directly to downwind. I.e., radio is required up North. YOU are someone who knows what you're talking about!
I think the point of entry into downwind from upwind is you over fly and have a chance to talk and observe before you enter. It’s a choice for any pilot to do that before you land whether there’s is radio advisory or not.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
The problem is that the FAA is talking about something difficult to nail down with specificity. The FAR says an aircraft "on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way," subject to the "lower aircraft" rule. At the same time, there is nothing new about the principle that an aircraft approaching an airport, regardless of direction, needs to fir itself in with the traffic already there. That tension between those two principles has been here for decades.