Missed Approach non-direct holding patterns

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Michael A, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Here is a PDF of the smallest and largest holding pattern templates, plus a few between. This is holding east of the LAX VOR on the 076 radial, right turns.
     

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  2. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Protected side is for traffic separation and often for lateral terrain clearance.
     
  3. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

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    I've found that if you draw or visualize the orientation of the holding pattern relative to your approach direction, a safe entry that keeps you on the holding side is obvious. If a direct entry looks feasible, I do that. If a teardrop looks feasible, then I do that. I've rarely gone beyond that point in training IR IFR flight. Rarely, a parallel entry is necessary when the previous two options require too sharp a turn. You don't have to be too fine on the exact angles for each entry: if a particular entry can be made without a sharp turn, do it. In practice, I do more teardrops than anything else.

    With a GNS430, visualizing the hold relative to your current position is easy, and selecting a suitable entry is anticlimactic. Any option is fine as long as you stay on the holding side during entry. I think too many pilots overthink this.
     
  4. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I guess I'll disagree with that. If I have time to write down and understand the clearance, I have already drawn it. That's assuming, of course, that it is not a published hold - those are already drawn. And, of course, if its painted on the GPS with the hold entry, whether part of an approach or using a GTN or IFD navigator to draw an ad hoc hold, there's no need to draw it for orientation (although I do because it's my SOP, I don't memorize holding clearances, and it's just as fast as writing it down using a more "traditional" method).

    And the need to do it quickly is a training thing only, where everything is artificially speeded up. In the typical real hold, you have plenty of time. Plus, if you get an ad hoc hold from ATC, it's almost a guarantee it will be on the course you are already on and a direct entry. Easy peasy.
    If you had no problems with hold entries, you are one of the lucky ones. My experience is that those are few and far between. I had a student like that once. Give him a holding instruction and he "saw" it immediately. My favorite was when I screwed up a holding instruction. Without so much as 1-2 seconds of thought he replied, "That doesn't work. You can't do that."

    OTOH, holds were an incomprehensible bear for me (even before the CFI who screwed up the thumb method for me). Drawing the hold - actually drawing the holding clearance as it is given - was something I didn't come upon until I started working on my CFII and realized I's better find a way to teach it to myself so I an help make sense of it to others.
     
  5. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Unfortunately, they way they are usually taught leads pilot to overthink it. It's true of a number of simple instrument maneuvers. The other biggie in the "easy to do but let's make it as complicated as we can" is DME arcs.
     
  6. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What's the easy way to do DME arcs?
     
  7. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Nicely done.

    @everybody else

    Although corn-popper pilots don't have much to worry about as far as exceeding the boundaries on even the smallest patterns, those who aspire to fly faster ought to learn the recommended entries to ensure they don't. What gets fudged during the primacy stage of learning won't do later when it may really count. The AIM standard for proper choice of entry used to be "within + or - five degrees" of the (instantaneous) heading upon arrival at the fix. For that you need an instantaneous method of great accuracy. Luckily, it's easy as pie pictured on the DG. But, boy, if anybody tries to teach it on POA, the hue and cry against it is deafening. So, I won't. :)
     
  8. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

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    Amen! I thank my IFR instructor for making hold entries simple, and my DPE was happy with my performance and explanations, too. In the olde days, if you couldn't immediately visualize the hold and your position, you would just draw a quick diagram the paper map or plate and Bob's your Uncle. Today, you just look at the smart box or tablet EFB and enter to stay away from the non-holding side. FAA training docs have a way of making the simple incomprehensible. All the "rules" for entries are just guides for sensible operation, not regulations. If you are 10 degrees off from the "rule" when you make a direct entry, you won't fall out of the sky or run into terrain.
     
  9. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    As you know, most jet transports always fly at the maximum speeds authorized for holding. Thus, the correct entry is much more important than in a Skylane at 120 knots. Most, if not all, Part 121 carriers make the correct entry mandatory (within +/- 5 degrees).
     
  10. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    I think yesterday's professionally flown corporate planes have depreciated to the level many more can justify them as personal runabouts, like MU-2s, Turbo Commanders, Citations, etc., not to mention the cabin class twins, like Cessna 421s. With 30-some template sizes and no way way for the average pilot to know the boundaries in a given case, the only way to enter holding is the correct way, IMO.
     
  11. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    It's pretty much getting rid of the "turn 10 twist 10" mantra. I'm assuming no GPS which makes the whole thing a complete non-event.

    Make the 90 degree turn within a mile of the arc to join it. Twist 10 degrees as a cross-check you made the turn in the correct direction.

    As you proceed along the arc, if the DME readout climbs higher than the published arc distance, turn in; if lower, don't turn again until its recaptured. If those don't bring yo back to the arc, increase the angle - pretty much the exact same as you would do with your reference heading to keep the needle centered on any other approach.

    Minimum twists of the OBS are the initial cross-check, a lead radial (whether published or not) to alert you to the need to turn off the arc inbound, and, of course the radial for the final turn to the inbound course. The number of twists in the middle to maintain situational awareness of your progress is your choice. I like 1 to 3 depending on the length of the arc, but "Gee, I wonder how far along I am now" works just as well.
     
  12. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I like "turn ten, twist ten" because it's systematic. (Also, primacy.)
     
  13. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    True. Just brought it up because sometimes I see folk literally think the non holding side is unprotected. I wasn't thinking you thought that, just getting it out there via a reply to your post.
     
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  14. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    They care which side you hold on. That the non holding side is protected to accommodate maneuvering during entry doesn't mean you can just decide to hold on the other side. Once established in the pattern the amount of space protected on the non holding side is reduced. And depending on the angle you arrive at the fix to begin entry, sometimes the space protected on the non holding side is reduced before you get there. These 'reduction areas' only apply to separating airplanes from other airplanes. The full pattern is always used when the Pattern is constructed with reference to separating airplanes from rocks.EDIT: Reduction Areas appear to no longer be used

    The correct way to do a Parallel entry is not to lead the turn before arriving at the fix to join holding radial out bound. Nor is it to cross the fix and then turn back to join radial outbound. It is to cross the fix and then fly a paralleling heading out bound. AIM 5-3-8 is all about holding. Lots of explanations and pictures. Here is 5-3-8 3. (a) about Parallel entries:

    Parallel Procedure. When approaching
    the holding fix from anywhere in sector (a), the
    parallel entry procedure would be to turn to a heading
    to parallel the holding course outbound on the
    nonholding side for one minute, turn in the direction
    of the holding pattern through more than 180 degrees,
    and return to the holding fix or intercept the holding
    course inbound.

    GPS navigators don't seem to like this and like to tell you to lead the turn and join intercept the holding radial outbound. I guess that makes it easier for them to do their 'sequencing.' You will remain within protected space if you lead the turn, so no biggie I guess. But it does make the turn back to inbound more tedious.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  15. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    The Garmin 430W is lying
     
  16. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    @aterpster I've tried to find a picture of a template that shows the Reduction Areas but can't. Can you find one?
     
  17. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you determine your hold is non-direct, and you're not comfy with parallel or teardrop, you can always back it in.
     
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  18. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    It's been eliminated from criteria.
     
  19. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    I've found that when you don't go along with the Garmin things can get a little bit ugly.
     
  20. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Yes. That was a little harsh of me to just say it was lying. It does just fine when flying a proper Parallel Entry though. It shows you off to the side on the way outbound and sequences just fine when you turn back inbound and join the inbound leg.
     
  21. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    When did that happen?
     
  22. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    When they incorporated the holding pattern criteria into Chapter 17 of TERPs. Reduction areas were for ATC only, not TERPs.
     
  23. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I guess I just don't like mnemonics :D but I don't want to sell it on anyone who uses a different procedure that works.

    Since I didn't have DME when I originally trained, I only learned "turn 10, twist 10" as something I was "supposed" to do. Then I had a chance to fly one for practice, looked at it, and said to myself, "that's silly." So I was pretty much self-taught.

    Then I became an instructor and watched people turning and twisting with no situational awareness, just because they were taught a mantra, making the whole process much more workload intensive for themselves than it needed to be, and getting behind anything faster than a 172.

    But like most of this stuff, it's just technique and you do what you feel comfortable with. If it works, it works.
     
  24. SbestCFII

    SbestCFII Line Up and Wait

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    If you're really not sure... 1) fly to the holding fix, then... 2) immediately turn to the outbound heading, then... fly outbound for 1 minute or the distance specified for the hold, then... turn into the protected side of the hold and direct to the fix, then... Hold!
     
  25. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Just follow the magenta line, what's the big deal?
     
  26. RussR

    RussR Cleared for Takeoff

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    I was also taught the turn ten, twist ten routine. And so that's what I taught my students for a long time. Then a couple years ago, I read a virtually identical post of yours and thought, well duh. So the next IR student I had, I didn't even mention "turn 10, twist 10". I just told him to turn 90 degrees at first, and adjust from there. We went around in a nice circle, got done, and his comment was "That's it? That's easy!" He had been worried that it was some complicated thing, but, nope. He was well within the standards on his first try, and yes there was some wind.
     
  27. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Right or wrong, at least I'm consistent :D
     
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  28. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Easy with a steady, digital, decimal point DME readout. What about about with a crude bouncing Narco needle?