Missed Approach non-direct holding patterns

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Michael A, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. Michael A

    Michael A Pre-Flight

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    So I've been studying for the instrument rating written exam, and came across a few questions where it showed me an approach chart and asked what the recommended entry for the missed approach hold was. Clearly, they are all direct, as are all other missed approach holds I have seen on paper and in real life. My question is, has anyone seen a hold in a published missed approach that was a non-direct entry procedure? Certainly is something I hope I never come across in real life that's for sure.
     
  2. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Most of them. You come across them in real life all the time.

    As far as I can tell, most missed approach holds are located over the original FAF with an inbound course which sets you up for another approach. The entries for those are parallel or teardrop.

    Where are you located? We can take a look at a few.
     
  3. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    Actually they are not direct when entered from a missed approach and some are non standard. Take a look at some from and ILS and VOR.
     
  4. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    They are not all direct entry and by the end of your training, hopefully way before, you will be able to easily figure out which entry to use, fear not. Check out the ILS/LOC 14 approach at KASH.
     
  5. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    This is the best way I've found to simplify hold entries, works every time for me.

     
  6. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    If @Michael A is studying for the knowledge test but not flying yet, he's already been (sadly) exposed to the efforts to over-complicate the simple old entries.
     
  7. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Ah! The one I hate the most. (Nothing to do with the procedure; more to do with a particular CFII in my history - not Jason).
     
  8. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Why not? You’ll be trained to enter a hold in every suggested entry method.
     
  9. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    It drove me nuts for a while, at the end of the day you can do what you want as long as you stay on the protected side, within range and not on a check ride. I also learned about some of the challenges a tear drop entry in a 45 knot direct crosswind, fun stuff.
     
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  10. Michael A

    Michael A Pre-Flight

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    Yeah so not my brightest moment here. After these replies, I went back and checked approaches near me (not sure why this wasnt my first thought?) and found tons of examples that I have actually flown before. Been grounded for almost two months now for various scheduling reasons and apparently have lost knowledge because of it. Thanks for the help everyone
     
  11. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    You hate that method??? I love it, what you do you use?
     
  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    :D Instrument training does that to people.
     
  13. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Don't get discouraged, some people get this stuff immediately, it seems to me that most don't though, including me. Push through it, it feels great when it clicks.
     
  14. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I look at the holding pattern (draw it if it's not published) and how I am approaching it. At that point the entry is obvious. I've taught it to already-rated pilots who say they have trouble with holds and they tend to be shocked how easy it is.

    I overstated my hatred. The hatred is for the thumb/pencil on the DG method, but it colored my view of any method which involves doing something with the DG. That doesn't mean I don't teach it. When I teach hold entries, my goal is to simplify. I start with the draw the hold method but if the student has trouble with it, I find one which works for him or her.
     
  15. sarangan

    sarangan Line Up and Wait

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    Eons ago when I did my instrument checkride, things got busy and I spent valuable time struggling to figure out which type of entry to use, and ended up turning towards the unprotected side. As others have stated, don't overthink it. As long as you stay on the protected side and stay within the stated distances, you can do whatever entry you like. With moving map displays which we didn't have back then this should really be a piece of cake.
     
  16. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I sure hope I stated that too :)
     
  17. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    KALS RNAV Rwy 02
     
  18. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    That's the way I was doing it, drawing it if it was not on a chart, but I like the method in the video better as it removes all the spatial relations stuff for me. You have to get pointed to the hold fix at some point, once you are, I draw the inbound course line on the dg, or in my case, the HSI, in my mind, picture the turns, and it is instantly clear which hold to use as I am already on the course to the fix. Takes about 3 seconds now.

    I originally used the Sporty's thumb method where you flip it in your head for left turns, they shouldn't teach that, didn't work for me. Although the diagram is good to show the various entries.
     
  19. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    That's the one which really gets my hackles up. The reason:

    There are actually two ways of doing the thumb thing in addition to the flip for left/right entries. In one you plot the radial; in the other you plot the inbound course. My CFI for the rating taught one. A few years later I hand an IPC (ICC then) and when I tried to do it, a second CFI said it was all wrong and insisted I do it the other way. I knew little at that point and tried to follow what he said. The result was total confusion and an inability to use either.

    That led to an intense dislike of the method and - especially - for CFIs who try to change a pilot's working technique for no reason other than they personally like one better.

    The one you are using at least has the advantage of simple visualization.
     
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  20. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I somewhat agree. I don't see how that video makes you LEARN pattern entries, it just gives 3 examples of them. mostly teaches you how to draw a hold. hey, if it works for you, great.

    I think I lucked out, this video just clicked right away with me. of course I had to watch it a few times then draw out quite a few holds and how I'd enter them, but after that it becomes pretty obvious how you have to enter the hold just by looking at it. and it gives you a method that if you follow, gives you the answer 100% of the time.

     
  21. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    To be fair, the method is just to find an easy way to picture the entry on the fly (pun intended). Even using it, you'd still have to have an understanding of what holds are or you wouldn't be able to draw it on the DG.
     
  22. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    I agree with you, the video I posted assumes you know holds, the different entries and rules. It just gives you a simple way to visualize them, even with that you already need to know when to use which entry method.

    What I like about it is that theoretically you can be asked to hold anywhere in any direction with right or left turns. With the method in the video, I would write the hold fix, the direction to hold on, the radial from the fix, if given, turn direction, if given, and leg length or time, if given. I then turn to the fix, find the inbound course radial on my dg, then I picture the turn from the fix aligned with the inbound course, if I'm having trouble I trace it with my finger, and instantly I see the entry I want to use. What I like about it is I don't need to draw the hold out to see it like I used to do. Drawing is fine if I'm not busy and using the auto pilot, but more difficult if hand flying. YMMV.
     
  23. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Ah, you see those two things - writing the clearance and drawing it as two different things. I don't. I draw it instead of writing the words.
    Here's a video of my method.
     
  24. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    “Protected side” is really a misnomer. There is the holding side and the non holding side. The non holding side has almost as much space ‘protected’ as the holding side. Plenty of space is protected to allow flying over the fix on a parallel entry and then flying a parallel heading outbound on the non holding side. As well as instrument, navaid and pilot error.
     
  25. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Maybe, but that explanation won't help you if you turn in the wrong direction in a hold on your checkride.
     
  26. sarangan

    sarangan Line Up and Wait

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    Do you have a reference for this? I always assumed that if parallel entry is flown exactly on the inbound radial then you don't really have any reason to be on the opposite side of the hold. If there is just as much protection on both sides, why would ATC care which side you hold?
     
  27. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    That's a great video Mark, thank you. That example works great because the radial is your inbound course. Do you do it the same if the hold is hold NW of the abc vor on the 290 radial?
     
  28. Michael A

    Michael A Pre-Flight

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    Sporties Instrument rating course states that 60% of protected airspace is on the holding side and 40% is on the non-holding side. Sorry i can't site that anywhere more specific but that's what it says in the video.
     
  29. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    ATC doesn’t care on which side you enter the hold but they do care about remaining in the holding airspace. Even that’s a swag since the pattern isn’t depicted on their video maps. You’d be surprised about how many controllers have no idea about holding entries. Holding entry is also just a recommendation only and not regulatory. As long as you stay in the protected airspace, you’re good.

    https://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/holding-pattern-protected-area.80377/
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
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  30. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I purposely did it using a fix that was not the VOR because its more complicated. It works just as well with simple holds.

    But I'm not sure I understand the specific question. In both your example and mine, the inbound course is on the radial. If the hold is based on a radial the inbound course is going to be on the radial, although it might be the reciprocal. The use of the 290 radial also leaves me with questions since, being only 20 degrees north of due west, some might think of it as holding west rather than northwest, so I'm not sure if we are on the same page or not.

    Here's what your instruction says to me

    PSX_20190120_172656.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  31. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Look at the description of the parallel entry in the AIM. It shows it on the non holding side, not tracking the inbound course outbound.
     
  32. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Line Up and Wait

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    Since getting my instrument rating it seems I do far more teardrops than anything else.
     
  33. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Yes, I should have said 320, but you wrote it as I expected. I like your method of writing it down.
     
  34. 35 AoA

    35 AoA Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yes, if you do a parallel entry, on the downwind side of a crosswind, you will drift into the dreaded "non protected" side of the hold without a perfect wind corrected heading outbound. My guess is that aviators have made this error for decades without incident. At least I am not aware of an NTSB finding that read such as "probable cause was pilot standard holding entry not corrected for wind, which resulted in lost separation and subsequent impact with nearby traffic"
     
  35. olasek

    olasek Pattern Altitude

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    Yes, many times during my IFR training (just completed), for example ILS 29 at Stockton.
    I hope you are training on fairly modern aircraft with HSI/RNAV equipment - the G1000 was showing me how to enter every hold, super easy.
    If you are flying on some old aircraft and want to execute holds using raw VOR signals only - yes, this can get challenging.
     
  36. TommyG

    TommyG Cleared for Takeoff

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    Get one of the numerous apps. Use that for practice. I have never used the app inflight. I use it to teach my students. After a while you earn to visualize the entry without drawing it out or using the thumb method.
     
  37. olasek

    olasek Pattern Altitude

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    Important point, there is absolutely no way considering workload you go through during MA to start drawing or use some app to figure out entry. You must learn to quickly visualize it, in a few seconds. This can be learned sitting on a sofa, I had problems with other things during my instrument training but hold entries weren't one of them.
     
  38. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    I do it during the brief, before the approach.
     
  39. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    [As per normal PoA procedure, this post is intended to be ignored]

    I don't understand the issue here. The Garmin 430W informs me what the correct entry is, and draws the magenta race track. Easy peasy.
     
  40. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Lol, yup, there's that too.