Logbook - conditions of flight - do I double count

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MarcS

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MarcS
Hi pilots. If I do an hour of simulated instruments during the day during a cross country flight, in the conditions of flight part of my logbook...
Do I log this three times as Day, cross-country, and simulated instruments?
Put another way, do the 5 sub-columns in conditions of flight add up to the total duration or do I double count any hours that are say both day and cross country or both day and simulated instrument?
Thanks!
 
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It should be one line, you'll have a column for your simulated instrument hours, another column for cross country, another for PIC(pilot in command), and another for total flight hours. Consider these all to be separate things because they essentially are. Total hours are how long you flew the aircraft(total), PIC time is how long you were the sole manipulator of the controls, simulated instrument time is however long you were under the hood.

Your CFI has to sign this and should be showing you how to correctly enter it.
 
MarcS said:
Hi pilots. If I do an hour of simulated instruments during the day during a cross country flight, in the conditions of flight part of my logbook...
Do I log this three times as Day, cross-country, and simulated instruments?
Put another way, do the 5 sub-columns in conditions of flight add up to the total duration or do I double count any hours that are say both day and cross country or both day and simulated instrument?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
In your scenario, you would log one hour of simulated instrument flight, one our of day, one hour of cross-country, one hour of total flight time, etc.

An exception would be conditions that are mutually exclusive, such as day and night flying. If half the flight were at night, you would log 0.5 of day and 0.5 of night. Those would add up to equal the total flight time of one hour.
 
Many thanks, but just to confirm if I fly cross-country during the day I count that twice in day and in cross-country righ
Palmpilot said:
In your scenario, you would log one hour of simulated instrument flight, one our of day, one hour of cross-country, one hour of total flight time, etc.

An exception would be conditions that are mutually exclusive, such as day and night flying. If half the flight were at night, you would log 0.5 of day and 0.5 of night. Those would add up to equal the total flight time of one hour.
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Makes sense thanks!
 
You don't "count" it twice", but you enter it twice, it two different places.
 
You never count it twice.

Say you have a bear and you're going to log it in your inventory.

Is the bear an animal? Yes.
Is it a mammal? Yes.
Is it an omnivore? Yes.

So you log it as each, but you don't have 3 bears in inventory. Same with time in your log book.

How long was the total flight for? 2 hours. OK put that down under ASEL. Now mark down which portions of the flight are day or night or IMC or solo or dual received, but at the end of the day the total time of the flight does not exceed your ASEL time.

So your two hour flight might be
ASEL 2.0
Day 2.0
XC 2.0
Dual Received 2.0
Simulated instrument 1.3
Total Flight Time 2.0

NOT a total flight time of 9.3 Man if we could do that I would have a ridiculous amount of hours in my log book.
 
I always thought it was fun (okay, I still do, but it was more fun with a paper logbook) to see how many fields I could fill in on one flight.

So if you planned it right, you could get:
Instrument Approaches
Day landing
Night landing
ASEL
Day (my logbook didn't have this column)
Night
Actual Instrument
Simulated Instrument
XC
Dual Received
PIC
Total
 
RussR said:
I always thought it was fun (okay, I still do, but it was more fun with a paper logbook) to see how many fields I could fill in on one flight.

So if you planned it right, you could get:
Instrument Approaches
Day landing
Night landing
ASEL
Day (my logbook didn't have this column)
Night
Actual Instrument
Simulated Instrument
XC
Dual Received
PIC
Total
Click to expand...

If your CFI(I) jumped out partway through the flight with a parachute you could also log Solo on that flight. Or let him fly an approach or two and log SIC as well. I've got a few entries where I've flown with another CFI and we both logged dual given and received on the same flight.

I've actually done the opposite and reduced weird looking entries and logging them as separate flights. Fly from A to B, pick up passenger, fly from B to C with pax, then back to B, then back to A solo. Rather than 1 flight, I logged it as 3 separate flights. A->B | B -> C -> B | B-> A
 
EdFred said:
Say you have a bear and you're going to log it in your inventory.

Is the bear an animal? Yes.
Is it a mammal? Yes.
Is it an omnivore? Yes.

So you log it as each, but you don't have 3 bears in inventory. Same with time in your log book.
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This was a really great explanation!!!

EdFred said:
I've actually done the opposite and reduced weird looking entries and logging them as separate flights. Fly from A to B, pick up passenger, fly from B to C with pax, then back to B, then back to A solo. Rather than 1 flight, I logged it as 3 separate flights. A->B | B -> C -> B | B-> A
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Same. Makes it easier when I know that down the road, I am not going to remember anything about this.
 
EdFred said:
If your CFI(I) jumped out partway through the flight with a parachute you could also log Solo on that flight. Or let him fly an approach or two and log SIC as well. I've got a few entries where I've flown with another CFI and we both logged dual given and received on the same flight.

I've actually done the opposite and reduced weird looking entries and logging them as separate flights. Fly from A to B, pick up passenger, fly from B to C with pax, then back to B, then back to A solo. Rather than 1 flight, I logged it as 3 separate flights. A->B | B -> C -> B | B-> A
Click to expand...

Can't believe I hadn't consider that. I should be logging about 1/3rd of my flight time hauling Skydivers as Solo time.
i don't really need solo time for anything, so not going to worry about it.

Brian
 
RussR said:
I always thought it was fun (okay, I still do, but it was more fun with a paper logbook) to see how many fields I could fill in on one flight.

So if you planned it right, you could get:
Instrument Approaches
Day landing
Night landing
ASEL
Day (my logbook didn't have this column)
Night
Actual Instrument
Simulated Instrument
XC
Dual Received
PIC
Total
Click to expand...
I also have columns for Airplane Single Engine Land, Airplane Multi-Engine Land, Airplane Single Engine Sea, Rotorcraft Helicopter, Glider, Flight Simulator, Cross Country, Solo, SIC and As Flight Instructor.
 
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EdFred said:
You never count it twice.

Say you have a bear and you're going to log it in your inventory.

Is the bear an animal? Yes.
Is it a mammal? Yes.
Is it an omnivore? Yes.

So you log it as each, but you don't have 3 bears in inventory. Same with time in your log book…..
Click to expand...

Is the bear on cocaine? Yes.

Then it might be the equivalent of 3 bears.
 
jbarrass said:
...and RG and Tailwheel...
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I don't log RG or Tailwheel, but there are a couple of blank columns that could be used for that. I use one of them for Lake Crossings (Lake Michigan) just for fun. More than 220 times, all single-engine.

Could also log ski plane landings, but I just put that in the remarks.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I also have columns for Airplane Single Engine Land, Airplane Multi-Engine Land, Airplane Single Engine Sea, Rotorcraft Helicopter, Glider, Flight Simulator, Cross Country, Solo, SIC and As Flight Instructor.
Click to expand...

Sure, and mine does too, but (of course) you wouldn't be able to log ASEL and AMEL together, or Solo and SIC, or Solo and Flight Instructor together.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I don't log RG or Tailwheel, but there are a couple of blank columns that could be used for that. I use one of them for Lake Crossings (Lake Michigan) just for fun. More than 220 times, all single-engine.

Could also log ski plane landings, but I just put that in the remarks.
Click to expand...

I am glad I logged retract time, it saved a bunch when I bought my Mooney.

When I fly my plane, it gets logged as ASEL, Retract, Complex, High Performance. :D
 
Use an electronic logbook like MyFlightbook, and it happens automagically.....
 
Yeap, I use SafeLog Pro. You set the parameters for each you fly, and it automagically logs those things inherent to the aircraft.
 
Palmpilot said:
In your scenario, you would log one hour of simulated instrument flight, one our of day, one hour of cross-country, one hour of total flight time, etc.

An exception would be conditions that are mutually exclusive, such as day and night flying. If half the flight were at night, you would log 0.5 of day and 0.5 of night. Those would add up to equal the total flight time of one hour.
Click to expand...

not quite. a flight with a total time of 1hr and 1hr of simulated instrument is a big red flag. total time is, "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;" so unless you taxied, took off and landed and taxied back in under the hood, those numbers cannot be the same. i have seen checkrides end because of logbook entries like that.
 
unsafervguy said:
not quite. a flight with a total time of 1hr and 1hr of simulated instrument is a big red flag. total time is, "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;" so unless you taxied, took off and landed and taxied back in under the hood, those numbers cannot be the same. i have seen checkrides end because of logbook entries like that.
Click to expand...
I assumed he knew that and was just posing a scenario to clarify a different issue. :dunno:
 
unsafervguy said:
not quite. a flight with a total time of 1hr and 1hr of simulated instrument is a big red flag. total time is, "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;" so unless you taxied, took off and landed and taxied back in under the hood, those numbers cannot be the same. i have seen checkrides end because of logbook entries like that.
Click to expand...

I've done a hood take off, and never took it off until "breaking out" at "minimums." Are you telling me it takes 6 minutes to land from 200' AGL?

My logbook only counts time from wheels up to wheels down because that's how I have the flight timer set, none of this padding it with 20 minutes of taxi ******** on each end.
Purpose of flight for me = rolling on the runway, everything up to that point the purpose is getting to the runway, not flight.

Yeah, I would probably have another 25% more hours if I tacked on .4 taxi for every flight like some people do. But I have only ever counted time in the air.
 
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EdFred said:
none of this padding it with 20 minutes of taxi ******** on each end.
Click to expand...
Taxiing for purpose of flight is a 100% legit part of flying. Failure to properly learn how to safely taxi can and has lead to catastrophic outcomes.

You are always allowed to log less time in your own logbook than you actually performed.

I personally log my taxi time and consider the taxi itself to be a critical and important part of the entire flight experience.
 
Mongoose Aviator said:
Taxiing for purpose of flight is a 100% legit part of flying. Failure to properly learn how to safely taxi can and has lead to catastrophic outcomes.

You are always allowed to log less time in your own logbook than you actually performed.

I personally log my taxi time and consider the taxi itself to be a critical and important part of the entire flight experience.
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I know I can, I just don't agree with it, so I don't. When I fire up my plane with full tanks, I can idle for about 30 hours. You think I should top off, move the plane a foot, idle for 30 hours, do a lap, land, shut it down, and log it as 30 hours of flight time? Ridiculous isn't it? But hey 30 hours on 90 gallons is way more efficient than 6 hours when you need to pad the time.

If 30 hours is not ethical, why is 20 minutes?

DPE busted someone who did similar, logged a 6 hour XC flight that should have only taken about 1.5. Turns out all his XC time was exploiting that rule. He would fly, idle on the ground for a couple hours and then return. Logged it as you say.

Which is why flight time should be flight time. Sure count taxi time as pilot time (like a sim) but not flight. I will never be convinced that taxiing is flight.
 
Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or

(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.​

Counting necessary ground time is within the intent of the rule and is therefore ethical, IMO. Going outside the intent of the rule is what's unethical. I suspect that a court would also find that idling on the ground for the sole purpose of accumulating hours is not "for the purpose of flight."
 
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Could also say that you can’t count time at altitude when the auto pilot is flying the plane and not you. ( Yea / just stirring the pot and trolling here :). )
 
Palmpilot said:
Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or

(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.​

Counting normal and necessary ground times is within the intent of the rule and is therefore ethical, IMO. Going outside the intent of the rule is what's unethical. I suspect that a court would also find that idling on the ground for a couple of hours is not "for the purpose of flight."
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So where's the line? Is 30 minutes ok, but 31 not? if 31 is not then why is 30 ok?
 
WDD said:
Could also say that you can’t count time at altitude when the auto pilot is flying the plane and not you. ( Yea / just stirring the pot and trolling here :). )
Click to expand...

None of the planes I've owned have had autopilot. My autopilot time is less than a tenth of a percent. So no padding there either. ;)
 
So if you shut the engine off on downwind, to save maybe .2 of the rental fee, I know you can log the time landing with the engine off, but can you also log the ground roll from touchdown to parking spot? Assuming you can coast to a parking spot. Follow-up question - what color will the guy at the FBO be, when you explain why you dead sticked their plane in?

Just asking because the original question was a little bit dry.
 
unsafervguy said:
not quite. a flight with a total time of 1hr and 1hr of simulated instrument is a big red flag. total time is, "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;" so unless you taxied, took off and landed and taxied back in under the hood, those numbers cannot be the same. i have seen checkrides end because of logbook entries like that.
Click to expand...

Some people log only the actual flight time. Some Hobbs only run when the gear is up and others have airspeed switches.

So it may be entirely possible to do 1.0 total and 1.0 sim instrument.
 
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