Logbook - conditions of flight - do I double count

[Sierra_Hotel]

So where's the line? Is 30 minutes ok, but 31 not? if 31 is not then why is 30 ok?

My $.02: If you sat there for 30 minutes after a flight just sweating into the seat to gain another .5, probably not ok. If you sat in your pool of sweat for 30 minutes getting a clearance, taxiing in a line of traffic to the runway, and went flying, ok. Like most things, it depends.

 

[Kritchlow]

At 20,000+ hours, I am far from concerned about logging time.
That said, I have been in a departure line for 2 hours while weather blows through. I’m constantly monitoring takeoff fuel, shutting down and restarting engines, communicating with dispatch, getting new clearances and reprogramming the FMS, watching tarmac delay criteria, watching our 117 times, and the list goes on. If anyone doesn’t think that is real PIC time and decision making, they are just uneducated.

It can truly be one of the busiest times for an airline Captain.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

But hey 30 hours on 90 gallons is way more efficient than 6 hours when you need to pad the time.

If you are going to do that, it would be way more efficient to just log the time spent binge watching "Dark Matter" and not burn any fuel at all.

 

[Palmpilot]

So where's the line? Is 30 minutes ok, but 31 not? if 31 is not then why is 30 ok?

I think I would base it on what the purpose of the ground operation was, rather than the amount of time. For example, airline crews have sometimes been delayed from taking off for long periods of time by weather or other issues beyond their control.

 

[Palmpilot]

None of the planes I've owned have had autopilot. My autopilot time is less than a tenth of a percent. So no padding there either.

Well I guess your 'holier-than-thou' credentials are safe then.

In my experience, making sure that the autopilot is doing what you want it to is an important pilot skill, and one that needs to be practiced.

 

[Palmpilot]

So if you shut the engine off on downwind, to save maybe .2 of the rental fee, I know you can log the time landing with the engine off, but can you also log the ground roll from touchdown to parking spot? Assuming you can coast to a parking spot. Follow-up question - what color will the guy at the FBO be, when you explain why you dead sticked their plane in?

Just asking because the original question was a little bit dry.

Maybe you should log it as glider time.

 

[EdFred]

I think I would base it on what the purpose of the ground operation was, rather than the amount of time. For example, airline crews have sometimes been delayed from taking off for long periods of time by weather or other issues beyond their control.

I'd call that pilot time, duty time, whatever else sort of time there is, but not flight time. Just like a simulator is not flight time - but it still counts as total time for the pilot.

 

[Pinecone]

None of the planes I've owned have had autopilot. My autopilot time is less than a tenth of a percent. So no padding there either.

Well I guess your 'holier-than-thou' credentials are safe then.

In my experience, making sure that the autopilot is doing what you want it to is an important pilot skill, and one that needs to be practiced.

How do you do that when flying airplanes without an auto pilot???????

Most planes I have flown did not have one either. A couple had a simple wind leveler, single axis one. I did not ever use it.

 

[Palmpilot]

How do you do that when flying airplanes without an auto pilot???????

Most planes I have flown did not have one either. A couple had a simple wind leveler, single axis one. I did not ever use it.

It was just an example.

Proficiency in whatever equipment you use can be important. If you don't have or use an autopilot, then it's not an important skill for you. Better?

What I do know is that when I get rusty on the G1000, my proficiency at making sure the autopilot is doing what I want it to is the first to go, and therefore I don't feel the least bit guilty about logging the time that the autopilot is flying the plane.

 

[Palmpilot]

I'd call that pilot time, duty time, whatever else sort of time there is, but not flight time.

14 CFR 1.1 calls that flight time.

Just like a simulator is not flight time - but it still counts as total time for the pilot.

I'm not aware of any reg that refers to simulator time as flight time, so I don't log it as such.

 

[EdFred]

14 CFR 1.1 calls that flight time.



I'm not aware of any reg that refers to simulator time as flight time, so I don't log it as such.

If I'm on the ground Im not flying. If I'm taxiing that's not for the purpose of flight in my book. The only movement for the purpose of flight in my book is the take off roll.

I think the reg is stupid and disagree with it more than most any other reg. I will never be convinced that being in contact with the earth is flying.

Would I call it pilot time just like time in simulators or FTDs? Sure. Is there necessary things for a pilot to do on the ground that is critical to the safety of the flight? Absolutely. Is it flight time? No ****ing way.

And anyone that honestly thinks that being in contact with the ground is flying is, for lack of a better word, an idiot. Especially whoever wrote 1.1


But I guess if the FAA says the earth is flat at some point, that makes it true.


Sim time can be counted as hours towards ratings. Plenty of regs say so, but isn't flight time.

 

[Palmpilot]

Hey, I didn't write the regulations!

 

[Kritchlow]

If I'm on the ground Im not flying. If I'm taxiing that's not for the purpose of flight in my book. The only movement for the purpose of flight in my book is the take off roll.

I think the reg is stupid and disagree with it more than most any other reg. I will never be convinced that being in contact with the earth is flying.

Would I call it pilot time just like time in simulators or FTDs? Sure. Is there necessary things for a pilot to do on the ground that is critical to the safety of the flight? Absolutely. Is it flight time? No ****ing way.

And anyone that honestly thinks that being in contact with the ground is flying is, for lack of a better word, an idiot. Especially whoever wrote 1.1


But I guess if the FAA says the earth is flat at some point, that makes it true.


Sim time can be counted as hours towards ratings. Plenty of regs say so, but isn't flight time.

And I don’t think sole manipulator should be logged as PIC unless acting. Whats your point? Either preach the rules and obey, or don’t.
Can’t mix and match as you see fit.

 

[Pinecone]

Regs say what is allowed. If you want to log less, go for it.

 

[Kritchlow]

Regs say what is allowed. If you want to log less, go for it.

My point exactly.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

Yeah, I would probably have another 25% more hours if I tacked on .4 taxi for every flight like some people do. But I have only ever counted time in the air.

When I got out of the Air Force, they told me I could multiply my time by 1.3 to get the equivalent civilian hours. Air Force logged only takeoff to touchdown time.

I didn't bother making the adjustment. Would have added a couple hundred hours.

 

[Palmpilot]

When the FAA added the following rule, I guess I could have gone back and added some PIC time to my logbook, but it didn't seem worth the effort.

14 CFR 61.51(e)(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.​

 

[Palmpilot]

And I don’t think sole manipulator should be logged as PIC unless acting. Whats your point? Either preach the rules and obey, or don’t.
Can’t mix and match as you see fit.

It seems confusing that the FAA uses the same term for tracking proficiency in manipulating the controls as they do for tracking proficiency in exercising command authority.

 

[Pinecone]

When I got out of the Air Force, they told me I could multiply my time by 1.3 to get the equivalent civilian hours. Air Force logged only takeoff to touchdown time.

I didn't bother making the adjustment. Would have added a couple hundred hours.

I kept a military flying logbook. I logged the USAF time and a separate column for taxi time in excess of the USAF time. IIRC, the USAF time included 0.1 for taxi time for each flight.

 

[Pinecone]

It seems confusing that the FAA uses the same term for tracking proficiency in manipulating the controls as they do for tracking proficiency in exercising command authority.

And of course NOTHING else in the reg is at all confusing.

 

[Palmpilot]

And of course NOTHING else in the reg is at all confusing.

I thought about mentioning that, but I decided it would be belaboring the obvious!

 

[Tai]

Hi pilots. If I do an hour of simulated instruments during the day during a cross country flight, in the conditions of flight part of my logbook...
Do I log this three times as Day, cross-country, and simulated instruments?
Put another way, do the 5 sub-columns in conditions of flight add up to the total duration or do I double count any hours that are say both day and cross country or both day and simulated instrument?
Thanks!

Thanks for the topic!

I appreciate all of the responses, perspectives, experiences and advice.

 

[Hannibal]

Fortunately we can log the time we spend on POA as flight time.

Just start up, roll forward for a break check, and get back to POA while you wait for students to clear out of the pattern.

 

[Hannibal]

I am glad I logged retract time, it saved a bunch when I bought my Mooney.

When I fly my plane, it gets logged as ASEL, Retract, Complex, High Performance.

Logging tailwheel time, TW landings and complex will help anyone when they go to get insurance on a TW and/or complex plane.

 

[OneCharlieTango]

Logging tailwheel time, TW landings and complex will help anyone when they go to get insurance on a TW and/or complex plane.

Even though TW and retract only matter on takeoff and landing. If I were an underwriter, I’d want to look at number of cycles, not number of hours.

 

[Pinecone]

Even though TW and retract only matter on takeoff and landing. If I were an underwriter, I’d want to look at number of cycles, not number of hours.

Today, with electronic logbooks, that would be possible, but back in the day, no paper logbooks has separate columns for this. Just day and night.

Interesting, I just did this for myself. Overall, I have just over 1 to/landing per hour of flying. But for TW, it is about 2 per hour.

 

[EdFred]

Even though TW and retract only matter on takeoff and landing. If I were an underwriter, I’d want to look at number of cycles, not number of hours.

You would think they do that, but no. They want 25 hours in type. So you fly it low and slow with a CFI from So Fla to Wa State. You make 8 landings on the trip but took 25 hours to do so. Your good to go. But you go out and pound out 50 landings in 3 hours, and that's not good enough for the insurance company. Once off the ground, a plane is a plane is a plane.

 

[Palmpilot]

"We live in an imperfect world."

 

[Lindberg]

Today, with electronic logbooks, that would be possible, but back in the day, no paper logbooks has separate columns for this. Just day and night.

That's what the blank columns are for. But I honestly have no idea why people keep using paper logbooks, other than superstition.

 

[Salty]

So where's the line? Is 30 minutes ok, but 31 not? if 31 is not then why is 30 ok?

If it's ethics you're concerned about, then time is irrelevant to the question. If you're at a busy airport and it legitimately took you 31 minutes to taxi, then 31 is fine. If you're at a podunk airport by yourself and spend 10 minutes watching YouTube and idling on the ramp, then that 10 minutes is not fine.

Ethically speaking.

 

[Pinecone]

But I honestly have no idea why people keep using paper logbooks, other than superstition.

EMP

 

[EdFred]

If it's ethics you're concerned about, then time is irrelevant to the question. If you're at a busy airport and it legitimately took you 31 minutes to taxi, then 31 is fine. If you're at a podunk airport by yourself and spend 10 minutes watching YouTube and idling on the ramp, then that 10 minutes is not fine.

Ethically speaking.

I don't see anything in 61.51 about ethically logging. Letter of the law man!!

 

[Salty]

I don't see anything in 61.51 about ethically logging. Letter of the law man!!

I thought you agreed the letter of the law allows it. I thought you were analyzing the ethics of it.

If 30 hours is not ethical, why is 20 minutes?

 

[Palmpilot]

I don't see anything in 61.51 about ethically logging. Letter of the law man!!

I seem to have overlooked the law that says "No person may fail to log time that they are allowed to log."

 

[EdFred]

I thought you agreed the letter of the law allows it. I thought you were analyzing the ethics of it.

Nope. I take the position that I can let the plane move 2 inches, idle the Comanche for 24 hours, do 1 t/o and landing and log the whole thing by the letter. Others say no, and I say why not, that's what the reg allows by their interpretation. If moving and sitting for 24 minutes is fine then so is 24 hours.

I disagree with the regulation as written.

 

[Lindberg]

Nope. I take the position that I can let the plane move 2 inches, idle the Comanche for 24 hours, do 1 t/o and landing and log the whole thing by the letter. Others say no, and I say why not, that's what the reg allows by their interpretation. If moving and sitting for 24 minutes is fine then so is 24 hours.

I disagree with the regulation as written.

The movement has to be "for the purpose of flight." Moving two inches with the intention of sitting for 24 hours or 24 minutes isn't "for the purpose of flight." Moving to check the brakes in the process of preparing for flight, running a checklist, taxiing to the runway, even in traffic that delays your departure, is all "for the purpose of flight." I'm not sure what people find complicated or controversial about this, but I'm just a simple unfrozen caveman lawyer.

 

[EdFred]

The movement has to be "for the purpose of flight." Moving two inches with the intention of sitting for 24 hours or 24 minutes isn't "for the purpose of flight." Moving to check the brakes in the process of preparing for flight, running a checklist, taxiing to the runway, even in traffic that delays your departure, is all "for the purpose of flight." I'm not sure what people find complicated or controversial about this, but I'm just a simple unfrozen caveman lawyer.

I disagree that all movement prior to taking the runway is for the purpose of flight. Taxiing to the runway is movement for the purpose of taxiing. To me rolling on the runway is movement for the purpose of flight. Everything prior to that should not be loggable as flight time. And if we want to take the regs as written and say the purpose of flight is all movement after start up, then it shouldn't matter if I am in the penalty box at ORD, or if I'm running a checklist, or I'm idling at 3 gph for 24 hours really really really making sure everything is ready before I do 1 lap around the pattern. If one is allowed, then all should be allowed. But all the logbook padders say otherwise, like they are the authority on why idling doesn't count, but theirs does.

I'm the only one not hypocritical in my position as I don't think anything prior to the runway is flight time.

 

[Lindberg]

I I disagree that all movement prior to taking the runway is for the purpose of flight.

Cool. You disagree with something nobody has claimed.

 

[Palmpilot]

I disagree that all movement prior to taking the runway is for the purpose of flight. Taxiing to the runway is movement for the purpose of taxiing. To me rolling on the runway is movement for the purpose of flight. Everything prior to that should not be loggable as flight time. And if we want to take the regs as written and say the purpose of flight is all movement after start up, then it shouldn't matter if I am in the penalty box at ORD, or if I'm running a checklist, or I'm idling at 3 gph for 24 hours really really really making sure everything is ready before I do 1 lap around the pattern. If one is allowed, then all should be allowed. But all the logbook padders say otherwise, like they are the authority on why idling doesn't count, but theirs does.

I'm the only one not hypocritical in my position as I don't think anything prior to the runway is flight time.

Do you really think this makes all that much difference, in the grand scheme of things?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Nope. I take the position that I can let the plane move 2 inches, idle the Comanche for 24 hours, do 1 t/o and landing and log the whole thing by the letter. Others say no, and I say why not, that's what the reg allows by their interpretation. If moving and sitting for 24 minutes is fine then so is 24 hours.

When I saw the number of posts, I decided I just had to look where this simple question migrated to.

I remember someone saying that since a new day or delay doesn't not mean the end of a cross country, all of his flight time is one big cross country flight.