Leaving hold in approach

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Dennis M Carleton, Feb 22, 2021.

  1. Dennis M Carleton

    Dennis M Carleton Filing Flight Plan

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    Flying the RNAV 21 approach yesterday into Wheeling (KHLG) and received instructions to hold NW of BEKSE (the IAF). Completed one lap around the hold and the turn to the outbound leg for the second lap when I was cleared for the approach. I turned immediately to intercept the final approach course. Is this correct or should I have completed the second lap around the hold, intercepting the final approach course after the inbound turn?
     
  2. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    you have audio of this?
     
  3. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I wasn't there but based on your description sounds like you were fine.
     
  4. Dennis M Carleton

    Dennis M Carleton Filing Flight Plan

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    Yes. Controller said “November 2806M cleared for the RNAV 21 approach. Wheeling airport”
     
  5. RussR

    RussR Pattern Altitude

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    So you basically just made a short holding pattern? Perfectly fine.

    The distance on an RNAV holding pattern is a "maximum" distance. However, I have been unable to provide any reference for this other than the TERPS, FAAO 8260.3, that is used by the procedure designers to decide what number to put there (4 nm, 5 nm, etc.), but is not really designed for pilot use. Note: the distance specified is almost always this maximum leg length from this table. I am aware of no exceptions.

    So, you just made your outbound leg 1 nm or whatever. Perfectly fine by TERPS.

    upload_2021-2-22_20-14-0.png
     
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  6. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    AIM. Note the “within” I highlighted
    5−4−9. Procedure Turn and Hold−in−lieu of
    Procedure Turn
    a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed
    when it is necessary to reverse direction to establish
    the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final
    approach course. The procedure turn or hold−in−
    lieu−of−PT is a required maneuver when it is depicted
    on the approach chart, unless cleared by ATC for a
    straight−in approach. Additionally, the procedure
    turn or hold−in−lieu−of−PT is not permitted when the
    symbol “No PT” is depicted on the initial segment
    being used, when a RADAR VECTOR to the final
    approach course is provided, or when conducting a
    timed approach from a holding fix. The altitude
    prescribed for the procedure turn is a minimum
    altitude until the aircraft is established on the inbound
    course. The maneuver must be completed within the
    distance specified in the profile view. For a
    hold−in−lieu−of−PT, the holding pattern direction
    must be flown as depicted and the specified leg
    length/timing must not be exceeded
     
  7. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There's a Chief Counsel opinion saying it's a maximum distance (although it deals with DME distance rather than RNAV) unless ATC specifies the distance in the holding instruction. It's the last of the five questions in the 2011 Young interpretation.
     
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  8. RussR

    RussR Pattern Altitude

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    Perfect, thank you.
     
  9. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    You were cleared to hold NW or NE as published?
     
  10. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    Where would you hold on this IAP if ATC said "hold NW?"
     
  11. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    You can hold NW of BEKSE, but that’s not a clearance I would expect. Hold as published NE would be more logical.
     
  12. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    Nope. Whether is is a right or left pattern is separate from the holding direction.
     
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  13. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    In Canada (and probably the U.S.), "cleared for approach XXX" without any additional instructions means you have to figure out the entry yourself, but should do it expeditiously. (In Canada, it also implies clearance to descend to MSA, but I know that's not the same in the U.S.).

    If you had kept waltzing around the holding pattern, you probably wouldn't have gotten in trouble, but you'd have been forcing ATC to protect a lot of prime airspace for you longer than necessary. So I think you made a good call.
     
  14. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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  15. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    @Dennis M Carleton , ya still here? I’m guessing your NW was a typo or you just remembered wrong. Did the Controller say “as published” when giving you the hold?
     
  16. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    There was a thread about that here awhile back. Or mighta been another Forum. It was an airport in the US close to the border. US had delegated the airspace to Canada. Don’t remember if it was an Approach Control or Center. Anyway, Canadian procedures ruled. The Approach Clearance left the US pilot confused because he wasn’t given an altitude to maintain until on a Published Segment of the Approach. Which is OK in Canada but didn’t make sense to a US pilot.
     
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  17. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    You shouldn't have to be given one. The "maintain xxx until established" is a redundant instruction put into place decades ago directly as a result of the TWA514 crash where the pilots erroneously descended to the altitude for the initial segment of the approach when they received the approach clearance. The NTSB was split on whether that was the fault of the pilots or ATCs (I'm tending to put the blame on the pilots). Here's the NTSB report if you're curious: http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraft-accident-reports/AAR75-16.pdf
     
  18. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    Perhaps I misunderstood the original post. I assumed that the OP was in a hold somewhere waiting for an approach clearance, not in a published hold-in-lieu-of-PT that was part of the approach.
     
  19. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    AOPA and COPA have a good joint introduction to cross-border differences, but understood that someone wouldn't think of reading that if they weren't actually crossing the border.

    If you're doing an approach into Soo Michigan, for example, you'll always be talking to Toronto Centre, not Cleveland Centre. If you're doing an approach into Windsor Ontario, you'll be talking to Detroit Approach, not Toronto Centre. Flying back from NYC to Ottawa, I've been handed off from Boston Centre to Montreal Centre as far south as Saranac Lake NY.

    As Facebook's old relationship status used to say, "It's complicated."
     
  20. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    It wasn't the controller's fault. It was the chart's profile view and TWA training that were at fault. I know that as well as anyone. And, the crew to the extent they discussed the higher altitudes in the plan view, but failed to query the controller.
     
  21. Dennis M Carleton

    Dennis M Carleton Filing Flight Plan

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    Sorry, yes, it was NE "Hold NE of BEKSE, maintain 4000, expect further clearance in 15 minutes".
     
  22. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Thx, NW made no sense.
     
  23. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Exactly why I asked for audio. Didn’t make sense to me.
     
  24. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    This is a surprisingly common error - thinking direction of turns and direction of hold are related.

    just saw it in Jerry W's latest video. "Hold west as published" for a right hand pattern. He input a left hand pattern because he was coming from the south and the turn outbound to the west was a left turn.

    That's not another Jerry slam. That kind of error is pretty common. It's so common, I've heard CFIIs argue this is "hold northwest" because the left turn takes you into that quadrant.
    upload_2021-2-24_7-28-42.png
     
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  25. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    Ouch.
     
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  26. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    I’ve had that argument with an examiner. Unfortunately it was just a continuation of a general 4-day ****ing contest.:rolleyes:
     
  27. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    This is an article about this subject I wrote for the ALPA magazine in 1999.
     

    Attached Files:

  28. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Your example in that article is almost exactly the disagreement I had with the examiner...he gave me “hold northwest of the 220-degree radial, 10 mile fix,” and believed that meant holding pattern “A” in your article.
     
  29. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    Sadly, it happens all the time. That's why the editor agreed to publish my article.
     
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  30. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    Can't do that. If the fix is on R-220, you'll hold northeast or southwest.
     
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  31. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    ‘Zackly.
     
  32. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    Is that a FAR bust?
     
  33. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not unless ATC cares. And even then only if you left the area protected fort a 50 kt crosswind.

    in Jerry's video it didn't matter. His left turn was a parallel entry and a left turn inbound would being him on course. I doubt it would have been noticed unless he had to make an extra circuit. Even then he'd probably still be in protected airspace going the wrong way.
     
  34. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The correct answer to an Examiner is, "Gee, thanks. I didn't know that" unless you are ready to argue the bust.
     
  35. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    OK, so I watched the video. Looks like his GPS drew the dark red and he flew the magenta, so even I guess if he made an extra circuit it still might not have been noticed (I suppose calling "established on the FAC" just as he was heading towards YADFY is also questionable but probably not noticeable).
    upload_2021-2-24_13-38-47.png
     
  36. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    I would’ve been ready to argue the bust (or just about anything at that point) had it happened, but we came to an agreement and he issued me a holding clearance that I could execute with the equipment on board.
     
  37. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    Where is this video?
     
  38. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Yeah. @midlifeflyer , @asicer ? I’d like to see it to
     
  39. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    Hold instructions are issued at 18:15 but starting at 17:15 provides a bit of context (about where I started drawing the magenta line).

     
  40. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Thanks