Lax jet dumps fuel on school.

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by PaulS, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Ate Dunkin’ Donuts and firehouse subs today without taking a dump. Top that.
     
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  2. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    No one cares about helicopter pilots;)
     
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  3. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    There’s another big aspect. Sitting in a cockpit when you think you need to throw a switch, you’ll throw it. You’re not sitting there thinking about the social media ramifications. You’re busy.

    Adding it to some asinine half hour long checklist is another related problem. Maybe you have time to finish it, maybe you don’t.

    And of course the question of whether anybody would even have figured out the airplane was dumping on final if the weather was at minimums and people didn’t see it or capture it on a cell phone camera or even made the connection for a week or more. Or a group of spotters that edit LiveATC audio hadn’t published it...

    The Information Age is wonderful if you give the human monkeys time to think about the massive deluge of information. Emotional responses happen faster in our brains than rational ones. We are really bad about teaching that and even worse about regulating ourselves when the adrenaline dump happens.

    “My child was ATTACKED!!! OMG. WTF! BBQ!!!”

    Instincts built over thousands of years.
     
  4. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    You’re right, hours don’t mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but when you have a private pilot that sits here and acts like they know more than everyone else and starts armchair quarterbacking the flight crews decisions as if they could have done a better job, is totally absurd!
     
  5. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I agree. That’s why I’m going to the regionals this year.
     
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  6. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    When you have a compressor stall in an engine.
    Is that any more dangerous than other engine failures?
    Would flying on the left engine for an hour to burn fuel been more risky because the right engine had a compressor stall vs losing the fuel control unit?

    Tim
     
  7. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Fair. I don't *think* that's aimed at me, but it is also the nature of these things for people to speculate and brainstorm

    there's a balancing act in there somewhere waiting for the final findings to come out and letting the professionals do their work while also discussing an event and what may have happened and what was going through their minds
     
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  8. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    It is NOT aimed at you.

    :)
     
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  9. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Welcome to the dark side
     
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  10. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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    Speaking of which, isn't it time for a new avatar?
     
  11. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nah. I’ve got the 1,500 hrs, I just lack a pulse.

    I told you, I’m too old anyway. It’s a pride thing. I couldn’t sit right seat to someone that I’m old enough to be their dad. I’d be at Delta with you yelling at me “I said gear down, not fuel dump! Now look whatcha did gramps!”:)
     
  12. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm a hotel/motel guy myself.
     
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  13. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Werd. Single pilot or go home. Sport of Kings. :D
     
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  14. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Hell, I dump fuel every time I fly.
     
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  15. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    No it just reminds me that I need to get single engine current again! Haven’t read through Delta’s policies for outside flying but I think I’m going to lay low until I’m at least off of probation.
     
  16. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Come to Endeavor. I’ll be a good guy and split the referral bonus with you lol!
     
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  17. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    They won’t care about you putsying around in a Cessna for a couple of hours. It won’t count against your 121 gig.
     
  18. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Why would they care about single engine? I suppose as long as you didn't do it for hire (pay passengers or teaching).
     
  19. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    After the spicy Indian food I ate yesterday, I DEFINITELY know how to take a dump! :eek2:
     
  20. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Does it involve squatting and fainting?
     
  21. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I disagree with part of what you said. Total hours do mean something.
    i respectfully disagree with much of your statement.
    Airline flying (usually much more than 5,000 hours) is not about stick & rudder, but rather seeing many different situations and the decision making that goes with it.
    I’m not saying the dude that opted to dump fuel made the correct decision.
    My statement is a generality.
     
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  22. Craig

    Craig Line Up and Wait

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    Would be interesting to see what the landing numbers in the books worked out to be. If they took off at max, they would have had to reduce their weight by nearly 100 tons to get to max landing weight. Couple that with a projected landing speed of 157 kts and on a 12,900 foot runway, could the numbers have projected running off the runway?
     
  23. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Cleared for Takeoff

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    To me it seems like in general I’d give maybe more credence to an airline pilot with many hours when the subject is...airline issues, and maybe the GA pilot a little more when the subject is GA, stick and rudder.
    Of course, some commercial pilots also fly GA, and anyway tend to weigh the actual content with that in mind, but a good logical point seems valid no matter where it comes from.

    Something like this, I believe airline pilots are likely pretty well versed in their procedures and issues.

    I still don’t know if it was (as the first report I read of the incident) if it was mostly odor they reacted to, if they had a slight mist of fuel, or if they were drenched in it. When there is talk of landing weight, like someone else here upstream, wondering if that holds when one engine is not performing. I sure don’t know what viable other options they had available.

    In the US, what actually happens when an incident such as this occurs? There have been train accidents where chemicals were dispersed near towns, refinery accidents where people (including children of course) are exposed to toxic chemicals. Compared to that this doesn’t seem so far to be that dangerous. It’s not good, and this is a chance maybe for the FAA or other regulatory agencies to refine the regs?

    It doesn’t seem like it needed to happen, that it could have been handled differently (which is where this discussion is heating up) but I don’t know all the details and don’t think any of us do, until investigation hears from the pilots. We don’t have all details of the situation.

    As some may recall, a few years ago through a hotels negligence I got a face and lung full of am deadly ammonia gas that was 99.9% pure ammonia. It had collected in the minibar which uses it instead of Freon, etc. for cooling and had been leaking and collected in the minibar inside. It burned in my lungs and eyes, I literally thought li was going to dies and several minutes where I could not breath, followed by awful wrenching, and coughing, etc.

    The odor was apparent before the incident, and housekeeping should have reacted, but we thought they used it for cleaning, the little that was leaking into our room. I stupidly didn’t demand an ambulance, and they kind of pushed me in that direction. The manager was very unapologetic, and the effects I felt for months after. I’m still not sure if it did real damage.

    I contacted an Italian lawyer, who said if I couldn’t prove actual damage, medically, there was no case. Apparently Italian law doesn’t concern itself with the actual panic and discomfort, the sheer terror of feeling you are going to die, and unpleasant effects. Or else he was a crap lawyer. Wasn’t looking to sue for millions, but rejected the only offer of 100 euros, not even ONE nights stay in their crap hotel.

    I think that sucks, but then too, if the result was enduring an odor, I’m not seeing how huge payments would be in order. But I don’t know.

    By the way, if you are ever in a hotel room, or other place with a mini fridge and you smell a whiff of ammonia, get the hell out of there and call management!

    But just to show it isn’t just POA that have a wide range of opinions, when I went to my regular doctor after the incident, and had been experiencing much more shortness of breath, she actually said “well, I don’t think it is that dangerous or they wouldn’t use it in hotels”. Jesus... again 99.9% pure ammonia is used, buildings get evacuated with lesser quantities and concentrations. It’s known to be deadly in concentration, and EMT folk react (I was in shock and made the dumb mistake of not insisting on an ambulance) but some like my doctor aren’t even aware of its danger.

    as a young man, working in a lumber yard, I cut asbestos sheets with a table saw for the place I was working. I didn’t know how bad that was (even in the early seventies, my boss did though) and I wish I had known and refused...but now I’d there is a tennis ball clump of it on a roadside, you get teams with hazmat suits closing off highways and treating it like plutonium, or PCB, etc, seems like we swing wildly from one extreme to another. Where some are “I used to bathe in the stuff” and others freak out with a droplet of some substance. No middle ground anymore,
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
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  24. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Well I still do some part 91 flying with my flight school that’s approved through my current company. Not sure if DL will approve that. I usually don’t rent. When I fly, I’m getting paid for it.
     
  25. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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    Our FOM strictly prohibits outside commercial flying, without written permission of the VP of Flight Ops. This is because any commercial flying counts towards your flight time limits in part 121 (121.489) and I'm sure the company wouldn't be happy to have to pull you off a trip because you tell them that you're going to exceed limits because of outside flying.

    This, of course, doesn't preclude you from putting around Part 91 in a GA aircraft.
     
  26. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Take a good look at FAR part 117. That is what covers this. I think it is much more liberal with outside commercial flying than it used to be under 121. But then again, company policy might prohibit outside commercial flying altogether, although I know that United does not.
     
  27. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Yea I never let it interfere with my duty limits. I get paid less at the flight school and I only really do it when they are desperate and don’t have anyone else. We can do outside commercial flying with written permission from a chief pilot. Delta actually asked me about this during my interview. Basically they asked how I’m able to split time and focus doing both. I maybe fly 5 hours a month doing 91 stuff but that’s even on busy months. I haven’t touched a GA plane since July. Looking back at my logbook, I only did 26 hours this year doing the 91 flights so I’m never in danger of exceeding limitations.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  28. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Some airlines don’t allow outside commercial flying because it could interfere with 121 duty limits. They don’t want you flying for another company and have you not available for 121 flying when needed. This doesn’t include just renting a 172 and buzzing the beach. You can do that all day.
     
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  29. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Pattern Altitude

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  30. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    Californians: “The spawn of my loins has been defiled by dangerous chemicals from an evil corporation!!”

    * Bhopal, India has entered the chat. *
     
  31. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    You're too young to adopt that attitude, especially since you get to pass go and skip the regionals. Put your ego aside and come chase the money and schedule like the rest of us lazy bums! :p

    Feel free to wear your flight suit and helmet while you single pilot your Extra. ;)
     
  32. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Now would Chuck Yeager go to the airlines? For you younger folk, would “Snort” Snodgrass go to the airlines? **** no! Single pilot for life! :D
     
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  33. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    I won't comment about this incident because I don't know anything about the circumstances nor the procedures that might be followed.

    But it would be cool if they could dump and burn like the F-111 could- it would make a great show.

    [​IMG]
     
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  34. geezer

    geezer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yeager's chase pilot, Bob hoover who should have flown the historical flight that gave Chuck his fame, was not dedicated to single engine, nor adverse to sharing the duties in his twin. No reason to belittle the guys who share the flying duties, voluntarily, or otherwise.

    I believe Bob is the finest pilot whom I have had the pleasure of having a conversation with. We shared connection through the infamous test he failed. I had also taken it, with no adverse effects for my flying future, but the conditions of my taking it were very different. It is very hard if you are not into video type games. He had not had interest in such games, which biased the test against him.
     
  35. smv

    smv Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Media report:

    A Delta flight purposefully dumped fuel all over a school full of poor innocent children today. We do not have any pictures of actual children being actually injured but here is an artist's conception of what it likely looked liked:

    Screenshot_20200117-143153_Firefox.jpg
     
  36. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    "I love the smell of Jet-A in the morning..."
     
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  37. EvilEagle

    EvilEagle Cleared for Takeoff

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    I asked about flying for Drakken when I was a new hire at DAL and they said no. After you get off probation is definitely the right time to ask, just cruise for now. After probation your chances of a yes are WAY higher. (welcome to DAL if I didn't say that before!)
     
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  38. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I was looking through the current Combat Aircraft mag last week and there’s a pic of an old friend of mine with Draken A-4s. He’s full time with them. I guess they’ve got F-1s coming online as well. Sounds like all these contractor aggressor / JTAC companies just signed huge DOD contracts. He should have steady employment with Draken for a long time to come.
     
  39. EvilEagle

    EvilEagle Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yeah man, Drakken is rolling really well now. They've asked if I'm coming back. I think the siren song of piston warbirds is going to keep me out of the red air business, but you never know.
     
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  40. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Yea I’m going to take it easy the first year then see what happens. Thanks man! I’m sure I’ll run into you in NYC at some point.