Lax jet dumps fuel on school.

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by PaulS, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. smv

    smv Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Roger. Thank you for that insight.

    Heh... Indeed...

    ;)
     
  2. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    The numbers can only get better. Lighter will mean less runway needed. Yeah, the Vspeed might be a little fast, but not by that much.
     
  3. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    It’s bad PR and that’s about it.
     
  4. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If these darn things would just run on hydrogen we wouldn’t be having these problems...where’s Henning?
     
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  5. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Last time I checked he was attempting to refurb some old tug boat to be renewable energy liveable as a matter of fact. :D
     
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  6. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Correct, that accident was a cabin fire. But, ATC had cleared them direct in to land, and the crew instead elected to orbit out over the ocean to dump fuel before coming in. Had they gone directly to the airport, would they have landed before it was too late? Who knows...
     
  7. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Talked to a friend who flys 777s for and he said the dump was SOP but they use 4,000 ft if able.

    Part of the problem in this instance was the crew telling ATC specifically that they weren’t going to dump. Doesn’t appear that they busted sep but it does increase when an aircraft is dumping fuel. An important bit of information to relay to ATC.
     
  8. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Ok, I haven’t seen a transcript, but did they say they weren’t going to dump, or they weren’t going to HOLD to dump. Big difference.
     
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  9. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    I would think their would be a "fuel dumping 101 course" for the pilots of aircraft with a dump valve. Lesson one, don't open the valve below 4,000 (?) feet over a populated area or what ever altitude would be a start.
     
  10. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    WHAAAA???!?!?!? Dump in the ocean? How could you even SUGGEST such a thing? What about all those sea turtles that can't manage to keep straws out of their noses? Better to dump on the kids. They know how to take a shower, at least.
     
  11. Katamarino

    Katamarino Cleared for Takeoff

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    Seems reasonable. Turtles are a lot more endangered as a species than humans are.
     
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  12. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    Don't forget about the defense lawyers. They win, too.
     
  13. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    § 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
    (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

    (b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in commandmay deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
     
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  14. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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    Certification standards are that the airplane withstands touchdown at 600fpm at max landing weight and 360fpm at max takeoff weight.

    Touchdown at no more than 360fpm, which would be a pretty hard landing, and the airplane doesn't experience any excessive forces.
     
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  15. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Yeah, so? It sounds to me like an extra thousand feet would have made this a non issue. I also think these guys never considered the dumped fuel would make it to the ground and probably feel pretty bad about themselves now. It will be interesting to read the reports about this one, hopefully they will be public.
     
  16. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Either way, if they didn’t specifically tell ATC that they were dumping, it’s gonna be looked upon unfavorably.

    63597E67-8FB4-4650-A6AB-22F025F0AE2C.jpeg
     
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  17. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    That's considerably velocity... wow. Next time you are in your car travel at 5 miles an hour and slam on the brakes. It's a jolt. Or try running into a wall
     
  18. Polarisguy

    Polarisguy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Agree. Was surprised that they didn’t go out over the Pacific and dump there. Must have declared an emergency. Meanwhile, you can bet the farm that EPA is going to ding Delta big time


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  19. Polarisguy

    Polarisguy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Flight was headed for Shanghai and inevitably was totally loaded with fuel. The MTOW was probably reached and will not work for a landing with passengers aboard


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  20. donjohnston

    donjohnston Line Up and Wait

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    On the playback I watched, they didn't have any audio while they were talking to approach (124.9). And once they were switched to tower, there's only the tower side.

    So I guess it's possible they told approach they were going to be dumping.
     
  21. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Cleared for Takeoff

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    Either you're going to land over weight, or you're going to dump fuel. These guys were dumping fuel, and still landing overweight. Use some common sense, the airplane is flying fine, a few extra pounds of fuel isn't going to change the outcome of the flight. Or, go out over the ocean, and dump down to MLW. Don't dump at 3000agl over a city.

    I have a feeling these guys are going to have a long chat on the wrong side of a big wooden desk.
     
  22. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Has there been a rash of complaints of jet fuel staining people’s homes, cars, streets ? Or was the fuel reaching the ground in a very fine mist that was discoverable primarily due to the smell ? Just curious..
     
  23. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Remind me again. What are your qualifications?

    And probably not.
     
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  24. Southpaw

    Southpaw Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Sorry Montana is full. Lakes going dry , Taxes are high . ;)
     
  25. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    You've got to love the ample supply of keyboard jockeys on this thread...:rolleyes:
     
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  26. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Cleared for Takeoff

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    ATP, couple of type ratings, 2000 jet PIC.

    What are yours, since we're measuring things?

    And please tell me what situation(s) justify dumping at <3000 AGL over a city
     
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  27. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    ATP, Couple of types, 6,500+ part 121 Jet PIC, 11,000 B-777 time, etcetera.

    Any situation where the PIC thinks improving the safety of the flight is concerned.
     
  28. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Isn’t anyone going to ask me about my qualifications?:oops:
     
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  29. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Cleared for Takeoff

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    I'd ask you how exactly the safety of the flight was improved by dumping a few hundred pounds more fuel, but I know what your answer will be so I won't bother.

    Either way, unless you're on fire, there is never a reason to hurry up and do things. Fly the airplane, do the QRH, and then land.
     
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  30. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    The only person that can accurately answer that question was on the flight. Everyone else is just guessing, regardless of what’s in their logbook.
     
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  31. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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    <--- Arrow Transport Pilot, a couple types (II and III), 200 777 hours (Business Class), etcetera.
     
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  32. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    You saying you know how to take a dump? :)
     
  33. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    I stayed at a Holiday Inn!
     
  34. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Great, the qualification card always gets pulled anytime we criticize a professional pilot’s actions. Let’s make it a POA rule that if a member doesn’t have time in said incident / accident aircraft, they can’t post.:rolleyes:

    I’ve been flying helicopters for hire for over 20 years and my actions deserve to be critiqued by anyone, with or without experience in helicopters. I welcome it and will give specific references for my actions if they come under fire. If you don’t have ammunition to back up your actions, you shouldn’t be flying for hire.


    Granted, I’ve never flown anything that has a dump valve but I have flown with externals. If I were to have a compressor stall and needed to secure an engine, I just wouldn’t jettison tanks simply because I’m on one engine. That would be poor decision making and not IAW the checklist. 91.3 wouldn’t give me authority to override the checklist and make a poor decision either. 91.3 exists so that when meeting the needs of that emergency, you may not be able to adhere to the FARs. It’s not a get out of enforcement action free card. So, the question here is, did they use appropriate actions IAW company policy, checklists and good judgement? Still up in the air in my opinion...and hasn’t yet evaporated. :D
     
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  35. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    That's kind of what I was thinking, this is an ETOPS airplane supposed to be able to fly at least a couple hours from land over the ocean and get back to safely land at an airport after an engine loss.
     
  36. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Since there are widebody airliners delivered without fuel dump systems, and it's well known that a plane can land at MTOW, I am in the camp of "doesn't make sense to start dumping fuel on final" - especially when you would think they've already done their landing W&B and vRef calculations.., and told ATC they weren't in the need to dump. Certainly appears to have been an afterthought

    They lived, and so will the school children, so "all is well"

    But to assume that the pilots did everything perfect because no one got hurt, or to assume that nothing can be learned from an event like this, is narrow minded.
     
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  37. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Watching the scare tv right now (local news) now they are talking to concerned neighbors of Logan. I'm under the approach path to Logan and Manchester NH, OH NO!!!
     
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  38. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    The "I have XXX thousands of hours" is such a dumb "I'm better than you" answer.. Hours means very little, as has been discussed here ad nauseum, and as accidents will prove that people with 100 hrs crash, and people with 20,000 hrs crash, often for stupid things like leaving a control lock in

    It's usually career pilots that pull the card too, as some kind of "I'm right by default because I've sat in a plane for more hours than you".. and 5,000 hrs sitting at 40K ft on autopilot with another pilot is a whole different set of experience than someone with 1,000 hrs flying by him/herself at night in a beat up chieftain on some low rent cargo op
     
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  39. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    I mean.. mass hysteria and idiocy of the media aside, I don't think it's unreasonable to have some kind of prudence over where you dump fuel. That ought not be some outlandish or "extremist" request
     
  40. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    We agree, although over my house is fine as long as they are high enough. Also jet fuel will generally not ignite unless it is atomized, just not a good idea to jettison it over populated areas at low altitude.
     
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