Instrument Training: Who got training from their CFII in actual IMC?

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by SbestCFII, Sep 6, 2017.

  1. GLMS_NC

    GLMS_NC Pre-takeoff checklist

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    A few hours in my training were actual. One trip weather went south after briefing and takeoff. That was invaluable training.
     
  2. ateamer

    ateamer Line Up and Wait

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    I got about five hours in actual during instrument with a couple approaches to minimums. The CFII didn't hesitate to fly in actual when overall conditions were acceptable for a 172. I found actual a bit easier than under the hood, probably due to the lack of visual cues and motion around the edges. It was a definite confidence-builder.
     
  3. Jim_CAK

    Jim_CAK Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I got about 5 hours in actual durring my IFR training. It was extremely valuable.
    I did a lot of training in the winter time after work durring night conditions.
    One particular flight taught me some valuable lessons. Flying after work, I had not gotten much sleep the night before. I also did not have much actual IFR at the time.

    After entering IMC I got so disoriented I couldn't keep the wings level. I told my CFII he was going to have to take over. He made me stay on the controls and had me watch the attitude indicator and as soon as a wing would drop he would tap the low side of the AI with a pencil and tell me to correct.
    Making me battle through it was a very valuable lesson. Stay calm, follow your training.

    As a follow up - We flew the next night in similar conditions. I was well rested and had no issues. It drove home the point not to be tangling with IMC when your not at your best.

    I am very greatful to get IMC durring training.
     
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  4. GaryV

    GaryV Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I did the accelerated course with Gatts out of Kansas. We were in actual IMC during the flight from Houston to Manhattan, KS, with the instructor the day before starting the 7 day course, in IMC for most of the first three days of training, then anytime we could find IMC during the rest of the training including most of my checkride

    I came away very comfortable in actual IMC and can't imagine not getting actual during the training. Flying with foggiest is a lot different than flying when you can't see anything outside of the plane.

    Gary
     
  5. Ghery

    Ghery Final Approach

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    My logbook spreadsheet is on a computer at home (and I'm in Vladivostok right now), but I know I had some actual during training. In some ways I preferred it to clear weather wearing the foggles. Easier to see the whole panel as the foggles wipe out the part of my blended lenses that work for stuff in the center radio stack. The 430 has some fine print (like the count down timer) that I can't see well with foggles on.
     
  6. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    Did my instrument rating in the fall/winter in central Texas, and got a good amount of actual. Much of my checkride was done in actual. It was a perfect day for instrument work - 800' ceilings from a widespread, thick overcast and very little turbulence.
     
  7. skier

    skier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I got a couple hours of actual during the later parts of my PPL training. ILS and VOR approaches. It was a lot of fun. Being from the North East I'm blown away that some people don't get actual even during their IFR training.
     
  8. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Do they still do check rides in actual? About 9 years ago I renewed my instructors certificate and the FAA examiner would not do it because there were maybe 2K ceilings and maybe 2k thick. I was going to instruct him on how to shoot LVP approach's, they were new back then. We ended up doing it a week later with clear sky's. He had never seen one at the time.
     
  9. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    Though I did my training in Michigan, I live in Vermont now and I can attest to the fact that it really depends on where in the Northeast you live. Here, although IFR conditions are common, flyable IFR conditions are not. Most of the time if conditions are low enough that you need to shoot an approach, they're either so low you won't get in, or it's cold enough and juicy enough that you will be landing - or crashing - a popsicle.
     
  10. FlyingTiger

    FlyingTiger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I was fortunate to get a lot of actual during my training including over 4 hours in two cross countries we did at the end. It was a great way to wrap things up and gave me the confidence to fly in actual with my wife on my first IFR flight after getting my license. It's a shame that there are instructors out there that won't fly in actual for lessons. They are doing their student a disservice because it is a lot different then using the Foggles.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  11. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    Not sure - my ride was back in 1999, so quite awhile ago. I imagine it’d boil down to the comfort level of the examiner. Maybe some don’t like taking on a PIC role if they don’t have to?
     
  12. spiderweb

    spiderweb Final Approach

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    Looks fun.

    I got only a few hours during training, but there was a good variety.
     
  13. Lando

    Lando Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I have never wished for clouds so much in my life! Unfortunately, what is supposed to be the cloudiest time of the year has been CAVU for all but .2 of my time. Fingers crossed that we get some good IMC in the next month as I finish up...and before icing becomes a factor.
     
  14. whattauser

    whattauser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I take my Instrument students into imc as much as I possibly can.
     
  15. Mistake Not...

    Mistake Not... Cleared for Takeoff

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    lol. I know exactly what you mean. I tend not to think in terms of distance, but time.
     
  16. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

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    My instructor didn't so shortly after passing the ride I dunked myself in the goo. This was posted here a long time ago, my 1st actual:

    ----------

    Due to various reasons (sore subject), I had never gotten any actual during my IR training, and since the ride (Dec 9th), planes, weather, and schedules had conspired to prevent me from getting my wings wet. I had the Archer booked, and last night’s weather looked good to me: 2300 overcast and 7SM, with occasional rain showers reducing vis to 5SM, and temps at 3000 of about 55F. Looked good to me.


    I called my original II, and he would not go (no surprise). I called the club instructor, but he had another engagement, so I called Brent. We trained together and progressed together (with the same II) all the way to check ride. We even took our rides the same day. “I’ve trained many hours with you, you’re a safe pilot, and I trust you, lets go!” Brent has gotten a few hours of actual already.


    So, 6:30pm, in a light rain shower, we depart with a local IFR plan to shoot approaches. At 2000msl, we go into the soup, and it is indeed overcast. I know what everyone has said to expect on your first encounter with IMC, and I was waiting for it, but you really cannot describe it until you feel it. I cannot BELIEVE how badly my body was lying to me; I had the leans, and a little bit of dizziness. In addition, I see why some pilots kill the strobes and landing lights in the clouds, both of those bothered me, so I killed them while in the IMC.


    I worked hard to maintain altitude and heading, but initially the best I could do was +/- 100 on the altitude, and I kept chasing it up and down, up and down, enough so that Brent commented “What are we, a yo-yo?” Likewise, I had trouble holding heading better than +/- 10 degrees. Wheel, all that motion and the leans too…had to work hard.


    Got vectored downwind, and towards the end of that vector, I started to get things kind of under control, then we got vectors towards the inbound. Once established, I descended per plate to 2500, and flew to the FAF/OM, Right on cue, the GS was level right at the OM beacon, and we started down the GS. We broke out at 2000, but could not see the runway lights due to a light rain shower. At 2nm out, we got a visual on the runway, and continued down the approach.


    Although DH is 873, I went missed at 1000, and around we went again. Into the soup at 2000, I was much better at controlling the plane this time around. Due to lots of arriving jet traffic, approach sent us on a super long downwind, and then boxed us around towards the approach course. It seemed like we were flying forever, and it was solid IMC, with no ground contact whatsoever. Occasionally, we would see a faint glow from lights on the ground, other times it was absolutely 100% pitch black. Just those instruments and that eerie red and green glow at your wingtips. This time around, I nailed my altitudes and headings very well, and it started to feel like old home again. Just like I did at night on the foggles, just no foggles this time. The patter of rain against the windscreen came and went as we passed in and out of the showers.


    Once inbound, I again descend to 2500, and wait for the OM/GS. Once on the GS, we start down, and as we pass thru 2000, I tell Brent we should break out and let me know.


    1900

    1800, well, I guess not, and the altimeter continues to unwind…

    1700

    1600

    1500, we remind each other that DH is 873…

    1400

    1300

    1200, “I think I see the rabbit!” A few seconds later, poof, we are out, and there is the runway, right where we left it! Runway, Oh glorious runway! The altimeter reads 1100. I click on the landing lights and strobes.


    Tower asks our intentions, and we eagerly request a full stop. I crank in the last two notches of flaps, pull the power, and get us down to approach speed. Flair over the centerline, back, back, stall horn, back, back, and with the yoke full back, we thump softly to the rain soaked runway. Taxiing back, raindrops dance in the puddles.


    Shutdown and cleaned up, I was out for 1.2, almost all of it solid IMC. I had not intended my first IMC to be so aggressive (shooting an approach to 400ft), but it was a good lesson in how conditions can deteriorate further than forecast. When I filed, I did not list an alternate, because per 123 rule, the 2300 overcast and 5SM vis as worst did not require it. Now, not only would I require and alternate, but conditions were below alternate mins as well.
     
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  17. eshazen

    eshazen Filing Flight Plan

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    Most of my training was in actual, and much of it was at night, too.
    My checkride was on an awful day (pouring rain, certainly below mins
    at BYV when they only had the LOC-16)!

    I'm endlessly grateful for the experience, because ever since (that was 25yr ago)
    I have never been perturbed by actual.
     
  18. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Pre-takeoff checklist

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    My final X-Country from KCMA-KSAN was IMC passing through 1000' in moderate rain for the first 1/2 of the trip. No hood required initially. Wind was hollowing at SAN flew the ILS Rwy 9. I recall having quite a correction applied to hold the loc in check. Had just enough rudder to straighten her out at touchdown

    Epic flight

    -MF
     
  19. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I did a bit of actual in the PIC course and I'd flown a bunch of actual before I got serious about getting my rating done. Frankly, I don't see the big deal. Actually, actual is a bit easier in my estimation. There are exactly three things I think and they're pretty quickly learned:

    1. When is it time to stop staring outside and get on the gauges (this is what kills VFR-into-IMC guys most of the time in my opinion, it's not that they can't fly on instruments, it's that they don't).
    2. The psychological effect of "I can't just rip the foggles off and fly visual." Of course, that's related to the "I don't got the instructor in the right seat to save my bacon" confidence either.
    3. That cumulous clouds are often turbulent inside.
     
  20. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    By rule I had no IMC during my check ride. We were VFR in a Bravo so the clouds my back seat pax said were there must not have been there.
     
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  21. Dave Krall CFII

    Dave Krall CFII Final Approach

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    We did some actual, it's impossible not to in Seattle if you're bound and determined to fly at given times that are set days in advance. More exciting than the hood but no more work.
     
  22. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Which rule is that? The FAA discourages examiners from being PIC, but doesn't prohibit it.
    Bravo only requires "clear of clouds." Still, pretty hard to avoid them if you're under the hood.
     
  23. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Insert more coffee and re-read my post.
     
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  24. drtcom

    drtcom Filing Flight Plan

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    I got most of my IFR in instrument conditions. In the LA basin (SoCal), we consistently have IFR conditions in the fall/winter. My instructor would call me when he did not have an IFR student and IFR conditions existed. I even took my check ride in actual conditions, which he said, in 1975, was not legal. But I had scheduled my check ride with the intent of doing a long cross country with possible IFR in 2 days. I got the full Monte of an exam. We took off in rain and light to moderate winds, climbed out of Brackett Air Field in Pomona, CA, filed for ONT (Ontario, a busy commercial airport) and started an ADF approach, he cancelled and switched me to a VOR approach, cancelled it and we did an ILS down to minimums where he asked for a missed approach! All approaches used different fixes and required changes of frequencies and instruments. Fortunately, I was in my own Cessna 182 and was familiar with it! I later bought a Mooney M20F and I can tell you I could not have done that approach in the Mooney. It is a faster, sleeker plane and the radios are not laid out in a convenient T. One radio requires you to reach across the passenger seat to adjust frequencies! I did become proficient in the Mooney but it took many hours and careful planning to set the radios up for all situations. POM has a VOR approach which you cross the field at a 90 degree angle before doing a right 90 to down wind. It also has an ILS approach that parallels Ontario's approach. If you are in the soup, you really have to maintain location awareness as I have had the approach control switch me to VOR when I had requested the ILS approach. I had anticipated the ILS and followed Approach Control instruction without question. I was so dialed into the ILS that the switch caught me by surprise. We are always suppose to stay situationally aware but following AppCon lulled me into expecting the ILS. They did not notify me of the change until they turned me to the VOR approach. If I had maintained location awareness instead of relying so totally on AppCon, I would have been prepared for the change and have had my radios set up correctly. I made it and learned a valuable lesson that night! Don't get too comfortable following AppCon that you lose location awareness!
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  25. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    The examiners are discouraged by FAA to accept PIC responsibility on checkrides. I’ve never heard or seen one accept it for an Instrument ride in actual around here.
     
  26. Dave Krall CFII

    Dave Krall CFII Final Approach

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    The few sessions amounting to very few hours in an approved sim with an II at a plateauing stage for me were invaluable in my early IFR training. Best value per dollar of almost any dual for me.
     
  27. FORANE

    FORANE Pattern Altitude

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    I know exactly how much I got in training. Zero, zip, nada, the big goose egg.
    My first actual was solo the day after my checkride. I was way behind the lancair on approach.
     
  28. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pre-Flight

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    I did my Instrument Rating in AZ. So, uhhhhh..... no.
     
  29. sferguson524

    sferguson524 Pattern Altitude

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    Got about 8 hrs IMC while training for my IR
     
  30. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

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    Sadly it looks like I likely won't get any actual before I finish my instrument rating. I'm in AZ where it is pretty tough to get IMC. Oh well.
     
  31. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    A lot of instructors don't have much if any actual.
     
  32. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    A lot of instructors don’t have much time.
     
  33. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    The weather was what it was during training. I got a little IMC time while training but I did not know it because I was under the foggles.

    The cross country was in IMC and did an actual NDB approach to 100 feet above minimums into the destination, which I think was SSI, St Simmons Island airport in Georgia.

    I tried to take my instrument students into the clouds when I could.
     
  34. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    Any other time than "actual," should be subtracted from your logbook.
     
  35. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Why do you say that? Many locations (southwest US) don't have IMC very often if at all. What about sim time? I know USAF pilot training can't always get actual, have a curtain in the T38 which is pretty effective.
     
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  36. ateamer

    ateamer Line Up and Wait

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    On my instrument checkride (about five years ago), I did a VOR approach in actual. We went over PIC and the examiner asked if I was okay doing the approach in actual, and offered others that could be done VFR. My response was "well, we're here to see if I'm fit to do this for real, so let's go." I'd done the same approach to minimums a couple times in the month before, everything went fine and the whole ride was easy compared to my CFII's prep.
     
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  37. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    As I wrote earlier in the thread, I had at least a little, and similarly launched into hard IMC solo a week or so after the ride. You definitely sound like a real trouper; I probably would not have had the confidence to challenge the hard stuff by myself the first time out, if I hadn't had some prior experience in actual.
     
  38. southallb

    southallb Filing Flight Plan

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    We did as much as we could in actual, which I preferred. I hate foggles!
     
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  39. drotto

    drotto Cleared for Takeoff

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    I have about 4.5 hrs in actual during my training. My current CFII says he does not even like signing people off without some actual.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     
  40. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Actual, in itself, is easier than foggles. The only thing is that sometimes actual is accompanied by a little convective turbulence, though we get plenty of that around here even in clear air.
     
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